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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: verrieres on Wednesday 17 June 20 18:35 BST (UK)
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Could I ask please for help (if you can) to identify the last resting place of a William Alexander Martin Pirie who was found deceased at No10 Rosehall Street on the 11th September 1945.
William was a well respected Company (Quartermaster) Sergeant Major serving with the Durham Light Infantry and was on home leave from Italy.
He died aged 41 of natural causes (We have his DC ) at 10 Rosehall Street,Glasgow. He like all servicemen killed/died are commemorated by the CWGC however his grave location is not known so he is commemorated on the `lost` memorial at Brookwood . It would be fantastic to find and supply the location of his grave / cremation and have him properly honoured by the CWGC ?
William Alexander Martin Pirie is not a relative and I have no knowledge of Glasgow or the area in which Rosehall Street stood but I am assuming he would have been buried locally?
Which Graveyards were in the area? Do registers exist ? Any help or pointers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You
Jim
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Hi Jim ,
I've split off your topic and changed the heading to see if it gets more attention.
Was William native to Scotland , who were his parents , was he married ?
ev
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Thank you Ev,
I am still searching for details I am afraid he was born in Glasgow but until today I was searching for him in the Hull/Humberside area because this was where the army record he resided ? He may even have been visiting relatives at the time of his death ? The only real fact I have is he died at 10 Rosehall Street on 11 September 1945 . Sorry I will add more as I discover it.
Jim
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I see no obit in Glasgow Herald and nothing in the BN Archive. What newspaper covered the Hull/Humberside area?
Don
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Rosehall Street, Glasgow was in the old C3. Possibly the Western Necropolis is the nearest but he could be anywhere?
Skoosh.
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Thanks for the input it all helps.
The record held at Durham states William Pirie enlisted on July 25/07/1924 initially for a period of seven and a half years He enlisted in Hull aged 19 years and 212 days, he had worked as a clerk on Humberside. William Pirie was born at St Georges, Glasgow, Lanarkshire.
The next of kin is listed as his sister Mrs Catherine Gibson of 37 South Wellington Street, Glasgow. He is recorded to have `Died` there are then the dates 10th Sept and 11th Sept. He was last seen alive on the 10th and found dead on the 11th which would account for those.
Death was recorded in `Milton`. He was `single`.
Thanks
Jim
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Jim, a look at this might give you an idea of the cemeteries involved, the Western Necropolis etc. His relations might have had a lair elsewhere & that was where he bas buried?
www.memento-mori.co.uk
Bests,
Skoosh.
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Thank you. I will definately take a look. Discovering CSM Pirie was a single man appears to make the options wider and more far reaching.
Jim
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Jim, he would surely have got a military funeral, the Maryhill Barracks were not far from where he died!
Skoosh.
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Jim, he would surely have got a military funeral, the Maryhill Barracks were not far from where he died!
Skoosh.
A military funeral is not a certainty because it is down to the next of kin/relatives whether they accept the offer of such a funeral. Similarly CWGC contacts them to offer a war grave but not all families want them and some relatives cannot be contacted.
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This man is a CSM, he is far from home & visiting his sister while on leave from active service during wartime. Maybe his distraught sister, still in shock, hasn't got two ha'pennies to rub together or maybe she has a wee fund for passing relatives who die on her.
This case will certainly involve a doctor, possibly the police, even the procurator fiscal & ultimately the military whose responsibility he is, a funeral will cost money. So Jim, disregard ruling anything out here before we've even started ruling things in!
Death notices in Glasgow then would generally be in the Evening Times, only the toffs died in the Glasgow Herald!
Skoosh.
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I would definately expect something to be offered . He was by all accounts very well respected in his regiment where he was known as `one of the big five` Although 1st DLI were still in Italy CSM Pirie was listed as being attached to 4th Holding Unit . i would expect given his standing in the Regiment that the pallbearers would have came from the regimental Depot at Brancepeth in Durham. Another good lead thank you.
True not all families took up the offer ,with CSM Pirie being single and listing a sister as next of kin on enlistment ? I am not sure who the surviving family would have been . He may even have been buried in an unmarked plot at the families request ? I still dont completely understand how he got to be recorded on the Brookwood Memorial however recently I believe hundreds commemorated there have been discovered to have graves ? Hence the enquiry into William Pirie. Thanks
Procurator fiscal was involved `James Adair` as was the Assistant Registrar `Thomas Montgomerie` Sept-Oct 1945. I have seen the entry which confirms he was found at 12:45pm 11th September 1945 having been last seen the day befor at 11:30pm .
Jim
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I had an uncle in the Camerons who was killed at Cassino, they were attached to the Sikh's & Gurka's so not found amongst the British troops. An Italian buddy recently sent back photo's his daughter took of the grave. Beautifully kept & the gardeners were offended at the offer of a bung! ;D
Bests,
Skoosh.
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Jim, a few suggestions here,
https://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/libraries/venues/the-mitchell-library
https://glasgowfamilyhistory.org.uk/
https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery-browse/Scotland/Glasgow-city/
Glasgow City Council's Parks & Recreation Dep't, John Street will also run a search but make a charge!
Obviously Covid 19 will hold things up right now but good luck with the search.
Skoosh.
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Jim,
He may be with his parents or perhaps cremated. According to the CWGC, Necropolis has 124 WWII burials and the crematorium 75 but I can not attest to this groups accuracy.
If he did have a Military Service I'm guessing that would include a Military burial and perhaps its noted in his military records.
Don
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Guys this is the oldest Glasgow crematorium,
https://glasgowcrematorium.co.uk
Skoosh.
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Thanks once again for the links. I have tried most of the conventional routes ,news obituaries, news articles,war diaries.findagrave,registers of death ..despite being such a high profile figure in his battalion he seems to have disappeared without trace .
The CWGC do not know where he is hence their decision to commemorate him at Brookwood . I will keep looking it took six years just to establish how and where he died and that was provided by a friend who contacted someone who had experience of finding people such as Pirie but even their trail appears to have gone cold.
Onwards and upwards as they say
Thanks
Jim
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Jim, I think the Glasgow Family History site would be a good start. Out of interest, what was the cause of death, wounds?
Skoosh.
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Found him!
Buried at Lambhill Cemetery, Glasgow on 14th September 1945. Lair no: 954, Lair owner's name: Mr J. Gibson.
Look at entry no. 108378 in left hand column on following image:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1G-B956-J?cat=1316261 (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1G-B956-J?cat=1316261)
Kind regards,
Andrea
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Andrea, you're a star! his sister was a Gibson! ;D
Skoosh.
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Amazing great find Andrea.
Don
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Well done , Andrea :)
Marriage Catherine L Pirie / Joseph Gibson , 1919 Blythswood Lanark.
ev
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Happy to help but good contributions by all! :). I tried looking up the Lair books to see if I could find who else was buried there but the lairs are not in numerical order and I couldn't see any other number that would help make the search easier. If I stumble across it will let you know!
Andrea
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Oh WOW!
If only you knew how long I have searched to find this soldier .Thank You so much. I`m speechless so I will end this post and collect my thoughts . Andrea et al..Thank you all.
Jim
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:) :) :)
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Good Morning All,
Still shocked at how quickly you solved this mystery I have to admit I had been looking in the wrong country for years! So well done again. It was only when a friend suggested posting here that I actively moved the search location and here we have days later a result ! :)
I am going to show more ignorance here but is a `lair` simply a grave ? Would `Compartment 1 ` be similar to `Section 1` as shown in a cemetery plan for instance?
Would the `lair` be marked with a headstone or could it be an unmarked plot ? Or would the answer to that one be someone would have to physically check it out?
Still buzzing :)
Jim
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The cemetery staff have a lair-map showing the graves/lairs, not all have headstones. The cemetery itself is divided into sections/compartments which might or might not have a marker. The staff's book will have the number of burials in each lair & dates of interments.
Skoosh.
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I am going to show more ignorance here but is a `lair` simply a grave ?
Yes.
Would `Compartment 1 ` be similar to `Section 1` as shown in a cemetery plan for instance?
Yes. Probably the same, not just 'similar'.
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Thank you
Jim
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Some really great researchers out there . (Jonathan @ F a G )
Lair 954 Section (Compartment 1 )
William Pirie interred 13 Oct 1943 age 74
William Pirie interred 14 Sept 1945 age 40
Joseph Gibson interred 3 Nov 1951 age 60
Thanks
Jim
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Just an update the grave has been visited and is unmarked . The surrounding stones are in a very poor state of repair. If the grave was ever marked is not known but it`s certainly not now.
*UPDATE*
Jim
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CWGC will be moving ther commemoration from Brookwood Memorial. Hopefully they will be erecting a headstone over the grave of CSM Pirie very soon now.
Thanks to all ,I will let you know once the grave is marked
Jim
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Commemoration now moved. Thanks to all who contributed this soldier is now recognised as having his own grave rather than on `a memorial to those lost` . 4443709 Pirie will soon have his own headstone. Thanks to the help of researchers here :)
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2147617/WILLIAM%20PIRIE/
Jim
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Over two years since the CWGC decided to erect a headstone over CSM Piries grave and I`m just revisiting this topic to show I haven`t forgotten my promise to update anyone interested with the headstones progress.
Well the CWGC did promise to let me know when the headstone was being erected but I have had nothing back since . They also promised to send a photograph of the new commemoration but to-date ,again, I have heard/received nothing .
I have this little feeling that they may have just forgotten to keep me up to-date, which is fine they are busy people but if anyone passes Lambhill and notices that CSM Pirie has /hasn`t his new headstone could they post it up here or send me a little note?
Cheers
Jim
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Hi Jim,
Sorry to hear there hasn't been any progress with the headstone. May need to give them a follow up if you haven't already! I hope someone will be able to have a look for you to check whether it's there or not. All the best!
Kind regards,
Andrea
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Can't help re a grave picture, but to keep this thread active until someone possibly sees it who can, thought we might add some possibilities for family members.
CWGC look to have added William to their 'appeal for relatives' list in September 2021. Haven't seen any search here on Rootschat for them, as is sometimes done. Don't know if they found anyone.
Anyhow, St George's is mentioned earlier in thread, as was a sister, Catherine. So, these two births seem promising:
PIRIE
WILLIAM ALEXAND
LIVINGSTONE [mmn]
M
1905
644 / 9 / 104
KELVIN
and
PIRIE
CATHERINE LIVIN[STONE]
LIVINGSTONE [mmn]
F
1899
644 / 9 / 987
KELVIN
Potential for parents being:
PIRIE
WILLIAM WHITTET
LIVINGSTONE
MARY ANN
1895
644 / 8 / 276
MILTON
Middle name for above Catherine fits well with initial in the the Catherine L Pirie marriage to Joseph Gibson.
Her death, cross indexed under Pirie:
GIBSON
CATHERINE L
72
F
1971
644 / 9 / 1013
GLASGOW
If potential parents correct, then death of William's mum would seem to be:
PIRIE
MARY ANN
43
LIVINGSTONE [mn]
F
1914
644 / 13 / 603
KELVIN
and his father's death, again if correct parents:
PIRIE
WILLIAM WHITTET
74
M
1943
644 / 4 / 960
PROVAN
an infant son of same name as above was also born/died in 1901 in Kelvin district.
No other siblings obvious. edit to add this possible birth:
PIRIE
FRANCIS GARDEN
M
1896
644 / 9 / 1547
KELVIN
There seem to be about five or so possible births to the Gibson/Pirie marriage, but as after 1919, and some could still be alive, I won't list them here. Some were infant deaths.
A Margaret Shanks Gibson nee Smith died aged 45 in Helensburgh area in 1984, and may have been wife of one of the Gibson/Pirie children. Not seeing an obvious death for her husband, who may therefore still be living.
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Thank you both for your input . I have sent off a reminder to CWGC will update when I receive a reply. My last update was September 2021 in which they were looking at a minimum 6 months with a completion in Spring 2022 . Nothing since but hopefully I receive an update soon
Cheers
Jim
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For all those interested it appears there was an over sight in the CWGC letting me know when the stone was being put in place however the grave is now marked with a grey granite stone with DLI badge and CSM Piries details. Thank you all for your input .
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2147617/william-pirie/
Jim
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Great update.