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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Nottinghamshire => England => Nottinghamshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: steve62 on Friday 11 September 20 18:06 BST (UK)
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Samuel Bowler 1841-(1881-1911) & Fanny Bayliss 1841-1917
children; Lucy A. (1866-1949) (Spinster) and Minnie Ada (1871-1945) married 1898.
Cannot use Anc. FindMyPast - my Italian cards not accepted. Having trouble with FS = Frustrated.
Have Census for 1871, 1881 & 1911. Exists Census 1891 and 1901 FS, but cannot get the actual census.
I would be very grateful if someone could check these 2 Census for me.
Further info I have; 1871 Samuel Policeman. 1881 No Samuel. 1911 Fanny Widow. Having these two Census I can ascertain also when Samuel died.
Thanking you in anticipation
Steve62
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1891 Fanny & daughter Lucy are in Northamptonshire visiting the Groom family. Fanny is shown as married
RG12/1221/5/4
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In 1901 she is mistranscribed as Bowles. Shown as a widow. She & daughter Lucy are living in Notts
RG13/3167/125/4
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Great! Thank you for your time.
Appreciated.
Steve62
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Am sending you a pm
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Can I just generalise a moment about Samuel.
Thank you for the PM and have noted.
1871 Census - Samuel (Policeman)
1881 Census - No Samuel
1891 Groom family in Northamptonshire - Fanny (Dressmaker, Visitor) Lucy A. (Schoolmistress, Boarder)
1891 - Nottinghamshire - Minnie Ada (Dressmaker) . No Samuel
1901 - Nottinghamshire - Fanny (Widow), Lucy.
Can assume he died between 1871 and 1891 or 1901. No records to match on GRO in all of the UK.
On ANC, without subscription, it is possible to see other trees with limited info. Confusion here; on the Bowler-Whelpdale Tree Samuel is married to a Charlotte b. 1853. There is Whelpdale marriage to a Bowler in my tree. The Bowler-Cave Tree Samuel is married to a Fanny b. 1841. There is a Cave marriage to a Bowler in my tree.
Its confusing and I don't think we will get to the bottom of this. I'll add him to my list of people "disappeared in thin air".
I'd like to thank you for your time and effort, which is most appreciated.
Steve
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Fanny shows herself as married until the 1901 entry
This 1911 entry is transcribed as Bowler on Ancestry as per the image but this couple are not found under either surname in 1901/1891 which does not help!!
Samuel has the same birthplace as in your opening post
1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X714-81F
Died 1923 Sussex
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I think you may have the wrong marriage for Samuel Bowler
Samuel Bowler who married Fanny Bayliss 1863 had a son Samuel 1864 registered Aston with mothers maiden name Bayliss.
They went to USA 1868 per 1900 census of New York transcribed as Bouler
Spring Street New York
Samuel age 68 born England parents both born England
Fanny age 61 born England parents born England
Samuel 35 born England parents born England (naturalized citizen) look for application
the son Samuel marries Florence ? about 1904/5
1910 census New York
Samuel 45 born England parents born England
Florence 26 born Russia parents born Russia
Jeanette 4
Dorothy 2
The son Samuel dies 14 August 1940 age 71 at Kings County Hospital, death certificate informant wife Florence, gives his parents as Samuel Bowler and Fanny Bayliss who were born England.
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Your Samuel must have married 1866-1870 if one occurred
Lucy Annie Wilkinson (illegitimate) was registered Nottingham 1865 born 30 May 1865 (dies 1949 age 84)
Minnie Ada Bowler registered Radford 1871 mothers maiden name Wilkinson
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Fanny shows herself as married until the 1901 entry
This 1911 entry is transcribed as Bowler on Ancestry as per the image but this couple are not found under either surname in 1901/1891 which does not help!!
Samuel has the same birthplace as in your opening post
1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X714-81F
Died 1923 Sussex
Is this the same Samuel as per 1911c?
47, Chester Square, St George Hanover Square, London & Middlesex
Samuel Bowler Servant Married 1848 Butler Domestic Nottinghamshire
1901c RG13 Piece 85 Folio 99 Page 7
Chester Square, St George Hanover Square, London & Middlesex
Samuel Bowler Servant Married 1846 Butler Domestic Servant Nottingham
1891c RG12 Piece 72 Folio 95 Page 20
Added
There is this Charlotte Bowler on 1901 census with no husband and three boarders
16, Walham Grove, Fulham, London & Middlesex
Charlotte Bowler Wife Married 1854 Portsmouth, Hampshire
RG13 Piece 60 Folio 75 Page 4
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Ladyhawk
Those census entries certainly fit with Samuel's occupation in 1911. Charlotte's birthplace is Chichester in 1911 and Hampshire in 1901 but given the locality I would say it is her
Amondg
Well - that find will give Steve food for thought ???
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I was looking at this 1881 census entry for Samuel but born Hants ???
Surname looks to read Bowler on original entry
80, Eaton Place, St George Hanover Square, London & Middlesex
Samuel Bluler Servant Married 1844 Butler
RG11 Piece 99 Folio 116 Page 5
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There is this Charlotte Bowler on 1881 census but doesn’t say if she’s married,
she has two children have not checked children’s mmn on GRO indexes as I’m about to sign out
4, Crucifix Lane, Bermondsey, St Olave Southwark, London & Surrey
Charlotte Bowler Ldgr Head 1852 Dressmaker Chichester, Sussex
Harry Bowler Son 1877 Godalming, Surrey
Florence Bowler Daughter 1881 Surrey
RG11 Piece 562 Folio 101 Page 18
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mmn was Lambert on both births but no Lambert/Bowler marriage
In 1871 Charlotte Lambert aged 18 b Chichester is a servant in Sussex
RG10 Piece 1112 Folio 9 Page 10
1891 for Fulham
Charlott Bowler 36 b Portsmouth Hampshire - married
Harry 4 b Godalming
Florence 10 b Fulham
RG12 Piece 48 Folio 182 Page 52
This is interesting given the variation in birthplace
Births Sept qtr 1852
Lambert Charlotte Portsea Island 2b 326
Births June qtr 1853
Lambert Charlotte Chichester 2b 303
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The 2 birth's tie in with children born on 1911 census but both deceased by 1911.
John
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No children on 1911 entry
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X714-81F
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Your Samuel a bit of a rascal with an aversion to getting legally married was the son of John Bowler and his wife Mary nee Barks. They married 1835 Mansfield Woodhouse.
(in 1871 when he is with Fanny states born Mansfield Woodhouse Notts).
1841 census Mansfield Woodhouse
John Bowler 25
Mary 25
Daniel 4
Joseph 2
*Samuel 7 months
1851 census Mansfield Woodhouse
John 37
Mary 35
Joseph 12
*Samuel 10
Richard 8
Frederick 5
Sarah Ann 3 (dies 1860 age 12)
William 1
1861 Stevenson's Building, Mansfield Woodhouse
John 47
Mary 45
Daniel 24
*Samuel 20
William 11
John 9
Mary 6
David 2
William Bowler 71 boarder (could be his father)
using the GEO index they also had EDITED
Alice 1845--? no of Daniel and Elizabeth
Austin 1847--?no of Daniel and Elizabeth (1841 census Daniel 25 Elizabeth 20) possible brother to John Bowler.
Selina 1851-1859 died age 8
Ann 1853 --?
James 1855-1857 died age 1
Harriet 1856-1859 died age 3
All children had mothers maiden name Barks.
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Ok folks
Food for thought indeed. Give me time to inwardly digest all info.
Speak later on.
Steve
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mmn was Lambert on both births but no Lambert/Bowler marriage
In 1871 Charlotte Lambert aged 18 b Chichester is a servant in Sussex
RG10 Piece 1112 Folio 9 Page 10
1891 for Fulham
Charlott Bowler 36 b Portsmouth Hampshire - married
Harry 4 b Godalming
Florence 10 b Fulham
RG12 Piece 48 Folio 182 Page 52 No children on 1911 entry
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X714-81F
I couldn’t find a marriage either ??? according to latest census it’s around c1875
For info.
Harry was aged 14 on 1891 census transcribed as 4
The death entries for Harry & Florence
Bowler Harry age 18
Jun 1895 Fulham 1a 170
Bowler Florence age 19
Jun 1900 Fulham 1a 214
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No children on 1911 entry
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X714-81F
Sorry Carol, there are 2 children recorded, not on Familysearch.
As found earlier Samuel did have a brother Austin who did marry another Charlotte (Freeman) in Mansfield in 1873 and appear in 1881/1891 but that's not what was originally asked for.
John
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Baptised the same day, 5th March 1881 St Mary Magdelane, Bermondsey, Harry & Florence Bowler.
Parents Samuel & Charlotte, abode 4 Crucifix Lane, occupation "Butler"
John
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There is this Charlotte Bowler on 1881 census but doesn’t say if she’s married
4, Crucifix Lane, Bermondsey, St Olave Southwark, London & Surrey
Charlotte Bowler Ldgr Head 1852 Dressmaker Chichester, Sussex
Harry Bowler Son 1877 Godalming, Surrey
Florence Bowler Daughter 1881 Surrey
RG11 Piece 562 Folio 101 Page 18
Baptised the same day, 5th March 1881 St Mary Magdelane, Bermondsey,
Harry & Florence Bowler.
Parents Samuel & Charlotte, abode 4 Crucifix Lane, occupation "Butler"
Thank you John - that confirms the Bowler from the 1881 census, husband/father was named Samuel
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I really appreciate all the work all you have been doing on my behalf, but can we just recap on a few things.
On a very reliable Bowler Family Site (owner now deceased) I found and checked a lot of info I have and almost all (99%) tallies with mine. It goes back to the 1600's as does my tree.
Yes the parents of Samuel were John Bowler and Mary Barks. This site gives the Birth of Samuel 27/09/1840. No details of marriage.
1871 Census
Samuel Bowler b. 1841 Police Constable
Fanny b.1841 Watnall, Notts
Lucy A. b. 1865 Notts.
Minnie A. b. 1871 Radford, Notts.
amondg - Samuel to the USA in 1900 Census b. 1832 - therefore not mine. Sorry
- Have details of John Bowler and Mary Barks
- Minnie Ada (bowler) Wilkinson b. 1871 Radford, Notts and Lucy Annie (Bowler) Wilkinson
tallies with the abve 1871 Census.
Ladyhawk - Samuel in 1911 Census, 47 Chester Square married 1848. Not mine
Now on ANC been looking again at those trees with scant info for non-subscribed. There is one I found that states Samuel was married to a Fanny Wilkinson.
I decuct from this what I have on Samuel is correct, except it is not Fanny Bayliss, but Fanny Wilkinson. However I cannot find a marriage for them, plus cannot find a death date for him between 1881 and 1911. Given he was not there in 1881 and in 1891 Minnie is alone.
Again I do appreciate your help. I just want to clarify a few things.
Steve
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Hi Steve, Having read your last post my only concern is how can you sure of your facts without evidence in the form of documentation. Sorry to have wasted your time.
John
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Hi John,
Correct. Need to find a marriage of Samuel to one of these and order an MC. Could always be they lived over the brush.
You have not wasted my time because in the dark every little bit helps. In fact I think I have wasted your time.
Your input has been very much appreciated as that of everyone else.
Steve
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1861 census
Fanny Wilkinson b 1840 Watnall Notts working as a nurse to the insane at the Asylum in Notts
RG9 Piece 2459 Folio 99 Page 27
No other 1871 entry for a Samuel Bowler with a wife Fanny
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Thank you. It all helps.
Steve
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This could be Fanny 1841 / 1851
Warfe, Greasley, Basford, Nottinghamshire
Ann Wilkinson Nottinghamshire
Ellen Wilkinson Nottinghamshire
Fanny Wilkinson Nottinghamshire
Watnall, Greasley, Basford, Nottinghamshire
Ann Wilkinson Head Widow Pauper Was Frame Work Knitter b Greasley, Nottinghamshire
Ellen Wilkinson Daughter Unmarried Glove Stitch b Greasley, Nottinghamshire
Fanny Wilkinson Grand Daughter b Greasley, Nottinghamshire
Mary Ann Wilkinson Grand Daughter Greasley, Nottinghamshire
1871 Census
Samuel Bowler b. 1841 Police Constable
Fanny b.1841 Watnall, Notts
Lucy A. b. 1865 Notts.
Minnie A. b. 1871 Radford, Notts.
- Have details of John Bowler and Mary Barks
- Minnie Ada (bowler) Wilkinson b. 1871 Radford, Notts and
Lucy Annie (Bowler) Wilkinson
tallies with the abve 1871 Census.
::)
Samuel Bowler bn 1841 Mansfield Woodhouse on 1841/1851/1861 census with parents John & Mary plus siblings
1841 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7S9-5ZY
1851 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG6F-3N2 occ Ag boy
1861 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7ZS-3Y1 occ servant
Edit to add
Apologies to Amondg missed that you had already posted details for Samuel on censuses ::)
at reply 16
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Sorry but I can’t find a marriage for Samuel Bowler to Fanny Wilkinson ???
Tried FreeBMD looked on Nottinghamshire Marriages Index 1528-1929
Perhaps they didn’t marry census night was 2nd April 1871 dau Minnie's birth Mar quarter 1871 in RADFORD Volume 07B Page 200 as per Amondg’s post
Your Samuel must have married 1866-1870 if one occurred
Lucy Annie Wilkinson (illegitimate) was registered Nottingham 1865 born 30 May 1865 (dies 1949 age 84)
Minnie Ada Bowler registered Radford 1871 mothers maiden name Wilkinson
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On GRO the Birth of Lucy Ann Wilkinson does not show mmn, its left in blank. Surely it should have been given or was it differant in those days. Minnie Ada Bowler has mmn Wilkinson. Now presuposing Samuel and Fanny married between 1865 and 1871. I have looked high and low for a marriage as you have and no marriage. Apt to agree they did'nt get married, but Minnie Ada took Samuels surname. When Lucy A. died it was Lucy Annie Bowler. So she later assumed Samuels surname. In those days was it possible for children to assume the surname of the father even though he and Fanny were not married.
The only Death for Samuel is "born 1841 and died 1920 Mansfield". Given his Birth year in records as 1841 I am assuming this is correct.
Your thoughts on this.
Steve
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On GRO the Birth of Lucy Ann Wilkinson does not show mmn, its left in blank. Surely it should have been given or was it differant in those days.
Minnie Ada Bowler has mmn Wilkinson.
When the mother's maiden has been left blank this usually indicates that the child was illegitimate.
I don't know if there's any significance but both girls baptised on the same day, surname BOWLER - unfortunately it’s only the transcript so can’t give you any further details - sorry
Lucy Anne Bowler
Minnie Ada Bowler
Baptism 25 Mar 1874
Denomination Anglican
Church St John the Evangelist, Carrington, Nottingham
Parents Samuel Bowler & Fanny
Nottinghamshire Baptisms Index 1538-1917
Not sure if you obtained both their birth certificates whether it would be of any help :-\
I wonder if Minnie named her father on her marriage to Fred Cale? They married 2 Aug 1898 at St George Church Nottingham
19, Rupert Grove, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire
Fred Cale Head Married Hosiery Trimmer b Hucknall Torkard, Nottinghamshire
Minnie A Cale Wife Overlooker To Shirt Machinists b Radford, Nottinghamshire
Geoffrey O Cale Son Nottinghamshire
1901c RG13 Piece 3167 Folio 167 Page 33
Geoffrey Oliver CALE mmn BOWLER
1901 M Quarter in NOTTINGHAM Volume 07B Page 273
Kenneth John CALE mmn BOWLER
1904 M Quarter in NOTTINGHAM Volume 07B Page 319
Geoffrey Oliver Cale Baptism 23 Dec 1900
Denomination Anglican
Church St George Nottingham
parents Fred Cale & Minnie Ada
Residence 69 Rupert Grove
Minnie died 1945 age 72 (registered Nottingham)
Address 83 Cremorne St Nottingham (1911) and the Cale's still living there 1931 (Electoral Register)
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The only Death for Samuel is "born 1841 and died 1920 Mansfield". Given his Birth year in records as 1841 I am assuming this is correct.
Your thoughts on this.
There is another Samuel Bowler born c 1842 perhaps it’s his death in 1920 Mansfield
Samuel Bowler bn 1842 is widowed on 1901/1911 census born Hucknall Huthwaite Nottinghamshire,
occupation Hosiery Waste Sorter living in Mansfield with his married son and his family
1891 census Samuel BOWLER wife Harriet (mother in law Mary Ann ALLSOP)
(censuses are on familysearch), SB & HA married 1872 Mansfield (FreeBMD)
Possible parents for this Samuel could be John & Millicent Bowler 1861 they are living in Hucknall under Huthwaite, Mansfield
added Samuel & Harriet Bowler plus 2 children are with her parents George & Mary Alsop in 1881
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Hi,
Wow! Just read it all - you are a star! I am very sorry I am out all evening and will get back to you tomorrow. Thank you very much.
Steve
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Forgot to look on FreeREG
1874 baptism for Minnie & Lucy
gives father's occupation as Nurse, unfortunately doesn't give their dob's
Minnie - https://www.rootschat.com/links/01pvp/
Lucy - https://www.rootschat.com/links/01pvq/
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To rule out these two deaths
Samuel Bowler
1894 Mansfield age 0 (birth reg 1894 NO mother’s maiden name)
1916 Mansfield age 0 (birth reg 1916 mmn Leeson)
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Thanks for all that info, especially for Cale of which I have not researched, but in time when I get to them.
It might be a good idea to obtain the MC of Ada and Fred as that will as you say give the fathers name and profession. So will do.
Samuel being a nurse is possible or a coincidence. His Brother Daniel was an Attendant in the Nottingham Asylum. Fanny was also a nurse in an Asylum. Sort of fits in.
Have been onto Nottinghamshire Records Office regarding Samuel as a police constable in 1871 Census. They have the Register of the Nottinghamshire Constabulary 1864-1916. Will give (if found) name, date of enrolement and leaving, rank etc. etc. Not being in the UK I can pay a fee and they will check for me. However before I embark I am going to telephone them. If there are records it might shed some light on Samuel and Fanny.
As always appreciate your time.
Steve
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Thanks for all that info, especially for Cale of which I have not researched, but in time when I get to them.
For info. when looking for Minnie A CALE on 1939 register surname is GALE - I found the family by searching using the address from the Electoral Register.
Have been onto Nottinghamshire Records Office regarding Samuel as a police constable in 1871 Census.
They have the Register of the Nottinghamshire Constabulary 1864-1916. Will give (if found) name, date of enrolement and leaving, rank etc. etc.
What a shame that the Register is not available to search and view on line and also that the full marriage detail for Minnie to Fred is only a transcription from Nottinghamshire Marriages Index 1528-1929
Sep 1898 Nottingham 7b 454
BOWLER Minnie Ada
CALE Fred
If you do find anything further about Samuel Bowler & Fanny Wilkinson please do come back and let us know the outcome - good luck with your research :)
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I certainly will
Steve :)