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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: macpark on Thursday 08 October 20 22:07 BST (UK)
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I am trying to track down the first marriage of my grandfather James Gallagher. He was born in Tweedmouth on 20th Mar 1887. By the 1901 census he, and all of his family were living in Glasgow. When he married my grandmother Elizabeth Martin Paxton on 31st May 1918 back in Berwick, he was described as a widower. In the 1911 census, he was still single. SO sometime between 1911 and 1918, he married and his wife died. They lived in the East End of Glasgow in Camlachie and Dalmarnock in 1901 & 1911 respectively. His father was Frederick Gallagher and his mother was Margaret Smith. I am tearing my hair out but cannot find this marriage anywhere. Any help appreciated.
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You cannot confine your search to the areas in which James lived as he may have married in his first wifes parish or even in a different county
SP has no marriage in 1918 in Berwick - can you clarify?
EDIT
Freebmd has James mis-spelt as Gallaghar
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SP has no marriage in 1918 in Berwick
Berwick upon Tweed is in England
June 1918 Berwick 10b 857
Gallagher, James - spouse Paxton
Paxton, Elizabeth M. - spouse Gallagher
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Had just edited above Jon. Freebmd has the surname mis-spelt
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On the x ref to Elizabeth it's spelt Gallahgher - will notify a mistranscription
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I do realise that he could have married elsewhere but I have to start somewhere! Berwick is in England and as I describe in my original post, the marriage you mention was his 2nd, to my grandmother.
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Looks like a needle in a haystack, at least until the Scotland's People centre reopens, when it would be easy enough to look at all the original certificates there.
There are 73 marriages of James Gal*hers in the SP index, and 135 deaths of female Gal*hers aged 20 to 40, between 1911 and 1918.
Depending on how determined you are, you could make a note of the names of all the 73 brides, and then search for each of their deaths using both their maiden and married surnames in the search.
For example James Gallagher amd Mary McMenemy were married in Glasgow in 1911, but there is no record or the death of Mary McM*n*m* or Gal*her between then and 1918. If you do this for all 73 there will be only a very short list left, and you can then check the marriages.
If course this does not work if the wife died in England, where as far as I know the certificate doesn't even name the spouse of the deceased, let alone her parents. But I had a look at FreeBMD for deaths of Gal*hers aged 20 to 40 in Northumberland between 1911 and 1918, and there are no obvious candidates.
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Thank you Forfarian. You’re advice is very useful and constructive. This has now become a challenge and I’m determined to see I through if I can. The Berwick side of things will be easy as I’m only 20 miles from the Berwick records office, once they reopen. I’ve searched Ancestry fairly comprehensively though to no avail. I will embark upon the 73 brides and see what I come up with. No rush, as they’re not going anywhere! I thought the SP hub in Edinburgh was open again, by appointment? Maybe I’m wrong. I’m ideally situated almost equidistant between Edinburgh and Berwick!
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I’ve searched Ancestry fairly comprehensively though to no avail.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
I thought the SP hub in Edinburgh was open again, by appointment?
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/about-us/service-status suggests not.
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I used Ancestry to check for marriages in Berwick upon Tweed - ENGLAND. They would not be on SP.
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Ah, that wasn't clear from what you had said before.
I use FreeBMD for BMDs in England and Wales.
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Hi macpark,
Do you know the date of death for James? Death certificate might hopefully show name of first wife.
Regards,
Andrea
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The marriage certificate that you have for GALLAGHER - PAXTON 31 May 1918 - can you please list all the information on this document. Everything please, for bride and groom.....ages, addresses, occupations....names of witnesses....everything.
What names do you have for children of this marriage?
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Do you know the date of death for James? Death certificate might hopefully show name of first wife.
It wouldn't if he died in England.
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Is this the alleged death of James? :-\
1967
GALLAGHER, JAMES
Age at death 80
Ref 644/4 713
RD Name Glasgow
Back in 1918, on the Glasgow ER, James Gallagher seems to be listed at the family home, 279 Bernard Street.
Iron dresser (parliamentary voter only)
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Death of 2nd Mrs. Gallagher, as indexed
1978
Gallagher / Paxton, Elizabeth Marti
Age at death 85
Mother's Maiden Name Lindores
Ref 613/ 310
RD Name Glasgow, Martha St
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If course this does not work if the wife died in England, where as far as I know the certificate doesn't even name the spouse of the deceased
General Register Office Guide to Death certificates
Occupation (column)
This will be the last known occupation of the deceased. Females were usually recorded by their relationship to husband or father – eg ‘widow of’.
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If course this does not work if the wife died in England, where as far as I know the certificate doesn't even name the spouse of the deceased
General Register Office Guide to Death certificates
Occupation (column)
This will be the last known occupation of the deceased. Females were usually recorded by their relationship to husband or father – eg ‘widow of’.
Yes, but a man's death certificate doesn't usually name his wife, and certainly not her maiden name. Admittedly I have not seen many English men's death certificates (they are not usually informative enough to justify the cost of buying one) but none of those that I have seen has named a wife, let alone a previous, long-deceased, wife.
Happily it seems that in this case it's academic because it looks as if he died in Scotland, though so long after the death of the first wife that the informant may not have known that he was married twice.
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The marriage certificate that you have for GALLAGHER - PAXTON 31 May 1918 - can you please list all the information on this document. Everything please, for bride and groom.....ages, addresses, occupations....names of witnesses....everything.
What names do you have for children of this marriage?
The marriage took place at St Andrew's Church of Scotland(now demolished,) Greenside Ave., in Berwick upon Tweed on 31st May 1918
She was a spinster (25) & he was a widower (31). James was shown as an Iron Dresser.
She lived at 17 Yard Heads, Tweedmouth and he at 279 Bernard St., Bridgeton, Glasgow
His parents were Frederick Gallagher, Electrical Engineer Labourer(1855-1925) & Margaret Smith (1863 - ?) and her parents were Robert Miller Paxton, Flour Miller(1860-1925) & Mary Lindores (1860-1938)
The witnesses were Frederick Gallagher, (I assume this to be) the groom's youngest brother b1896)
and Ethel Miller Paxton, the bride's youngest sister b.1901
The children of the marriage were Fred G, Mary Lindores G, Isabella Hussey G (my mother) and James G Jr.
There are no military records for James as he was in a reserved occupation, working his whole life for Barr and Stroud. They were optical engineers and switched to making such things as range finders for the Armed forces. See attached:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barr_and_Stroud
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Is this the alleged death of James? :-\
1967
GALLAGHER, JAMES
Age at death 80
Ref 644/4 713
RD Name Glasgow
Back in 1918, on the Glasgow ER, James Gallagher seems to be listed at the family home, 279 Bernard Street.
Iron dresser (parliamentary voter only)
This is not alleged. It is definitely him. He died at the home of his youngest son in East Kilbride, Glasgow.
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Hi macpark,
Do you know the date of death for James? Death certificate might hopefully show name of first wife.
Regards,
Andrea
I don't think that Scottish death certificates would list that, and I don't think my uncle would have known the name of his father's first wife. I'm not even sure my mother knew because it was never mentioned and none of my cousins knew until I ordered the marriage certificate that he was a widower when he married our grandmother.
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I don't think that Scottish death certificates would list that
Yes, they do.
A Scottish death certificate normally lists the names of all spouses, including the maiden surnames of all wives, but of course the information is only as good as the informant's knowledge and if the informant did not know that the deceased had been married more than once this information could not be included.
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Yes, but a man's death certificate doesn't usually name his wife, and certainly not her maiden name.
???
No one said they did.
We are talking about the first wife of James Gallagher.
Added
From 1969 a married woman's (or widows) maiden name is given on her death cert in Eng + Wales.
Back in the 1910s not so lucky!
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Yes, but a man's death certificate doesn't usually name his wife, and certainly not her maiden name.
???
No one said they did.
No, but someone has been muddying the issue by talking about the information on a married woman's death certificate.
I am talking about the first wife of James Gallagher.
I am talking about the fact that a Scottish death certificate routinely gives the names of all spouses of the deceased, including the maiden surnames of all wives the informant knows about, whereas an English man's death certificate does not normally name even the current or most recent wife, let alone give her maiden surname. Therefore if the death of the husband is registered in Scotland, that is normally the quickest and easiest way to find the first wife's name, unless the informant did not know her name, in which case you have to find the death certificate of the wife without knowing her name at all, which is much more of a challenge.
As the person being looked for is, as you say, James Gallagher's first wife, this is highly relevant.
From 1969 a married woman's (or widows) maiden name is given on her death cert in Eng + Wales. Back in the 1910s not so lucky!
From 1855, a married woman's death certificate in Scotland names all her husbands and her parents, including her mother's maiden surname, assuming of course that this information was known to the informant. You will understand that, being familar with the information recorded in Scotland, I am rather underwhelmed to learn that a married woman's maiden surname was not included in England and Wales until 114 years later :)
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Sadly. 1st wife is not named on the death certificate.
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Oh dear :(
It'll be back to looking at those marriages then, I fear.
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Not sure if you've started looking through the marriages but I had a few spare credits so you can eliminate the following from your list! (This is on the assumption James' first wife died in Scotland, which she may not have.)
Mary Ellen McGartland 1913 Camlachie
Janet Tighe 1916 Calton
Mary Steele 1915 Anderston
I forgot to check, as Forfarian suggested, whether there were any death records as well for any of the above, until after I had looked at the certificates, but I'll put that down to Covid brain! (still in lockdown in Melbourne, Australia and have no idea what day, date or month it is!! ;D ;D).
Having since checked, I can't see any death records for them during that time frame of 1911-1918.
Regards,
Andrea
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How kind Andrea. I’ve found all the marriages and am half way through checking for the deaths. Nothing so far!