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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kirkcudbrightshire => Topic started by: bigt on Thursday 10 December 20 15:17 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I am trying to obtain details of Mary Moore (Muir/Mure) born c1802 at Girthon Parish. In 1828, she married a James Bailiff (Baileff/Bailiffe/Bailieff) at Gatehouse. She died between 1851 and 1861, and in 1851 was at Kirkinner. I cannot find her death to possible get details of parents.
By 1861, her husband and family are at Gatehouse of Fleet. Their son John Bailiff married an Agnes Henry in 1862 at Gatehouse. My DNA matches 5 descendants of John and Agnes, but cannot find the common ancestor. After research, I suspect the link lies with Mary Moore and her ancestors.
Thanks for any help.
Tom
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I've had a look Tom and it seems that she might have died between 1851 and 1855. Not all burials records exist.
Have you checked the MIs? If not I'll see if I can find her (or possible Parents) in the MIs.
Gadget
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What were the names of James and Mary's children in date order?
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From the 1841, I see that children were
Margaret 10
Mary 8
Martha 6
John 4
Susannah 1
Do you know if there were other's before Margaret? Also do you know who James' parents were?
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She died Kirkinner 24 March 1852, aged 51
Mi reads
Erected by James BAILLIEFF, forester, Barnbarroch in memory of his spouse Mary MUIR, who died 24th March 1852 aged 51 years Also of his mother Martha DINSMURE, who died 20th March 1847 aged 81 years
Sorry - no details of parents but Margaret looks a possible for mother.
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Birth on SP gives Susanna Rennie Bailief 29/06/1840 at Kirkinner. Rennie a possible surname of Mary Mure/ Muir/ Moores' mother.
hmcc.
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Thanks for the replies.
Margaret seems to have been the first born. I should have thought of the Name Rennie being Mary's mother's surname. Also thanks for the MI from Kirkinner.
Tom
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Hi Gadget,
Have James's parents, but names don't mean anything. The only connection my tree has with what I have regarding the Bailiff family is Girthon/Gatehouse of Fleet.
Tom
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The 1851 has James as b. Ireland.
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Hi Gadget,
The problem I have is that, according to a contact I have who is into genetics DNA, the common ancestors should be my matches 2x great grandparents, who are John Bailiff and Agnes Henry, both born at Gatehouse min the 1830's. Give or take a generation. I have no links with Ireland. So, using John and Agnes as a starting point, my main target is Mary Muir as the Henry family has been researched. My initial thought was "someone has been naughty" :-) I will have to see if I can trace a descendant of James and Mary to see if they perhaps match. As mentioned, 3 other descendants of John and Agnes match me also. Interesting one.
Tom
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I like a DNA puzzle!
What cMs do you share with the 5 matches - and do they 'triangulate' - i.e match each other and you?
Don't take much notice of the ethnicities that the site gives you. They're getting better but still a side line. Concentrate on the amount of shared cMs.
Is this Ancestry? It would be really best to get the data loaded onto a site that has a chromosome browser - Gedmatch, My heritage, for e.g.
Gadget
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Tom, I think James Snr had a brother Samuel also living with his family in Girthon. 1851 entry for him here www.scottishindexes.com/51transcript.aspx?houseid=86606013
Thought it might help in case similar names cross over when you are looking at the next generation down, so you can be aware that there looks to be two connected families in Girthon.
Also adding this in case you haven't come across it in regards to John and wife Agnes www.hainings.net/2/35596.htm
Monica
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Thanks Monica, Samuel was also at Borgue. I have the family noted just in case they are needed.
As for the shared cM. 2 are on MyHeritage and 3 on Ancestry.
The MyHeritage ones are either 3rd cousins or half 3rd cousins to each other. The reason the half is mentioned is the great grandfather on one was born 4 years before his parents got married. He was born 1858 and his parents married in 1862. His birth record has the surname Henry, but in 1861 his surname is Bailiff. I therefore assume it was the same father, but father's name is not mentioned.
Anyway, the 2 matches are 3-4th cousin to me.
One shares 61.6cM over 3 segments, largest 33.3cM. This match doesn't show on my brother's DNA.
Other shares 66.6cM over 3 segments, largest 25.1cM. This one matches my brother, 61.8cM over 4 segments, largest 22.5
The 3 of us share 1 triangulated segment on Chromosome 9. 20.5cM
I'll send another message with details of the Ancestry matches.
Tom
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Girthon Kirk Session Ist July 1827, Elizabeth Fell is with child and James Bailiff, (hedger) acknowledges he is the father.
http://www.gatehouse-folk.org.uk/userfiles/files/Girthon%20Kirk%20Session%20Notes/Girthon%20Kirk%20Session%20Notes%201821%20to%201829.pdf
hmcc
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Regarding my Ancestry matches.
The 3 come up as 5-8th cousin
Me.
One matches 20cM over 2 segments
One matches 16cM over 1 segment
One matches 19cM over 1 segment
My brother.
One matches 32cM over 2 segments
One matches 26cM over 2 segments
One matches 26cM over 3 segments.
I have sent messages to these people but no reply.
All 5 are 2x great grandchildren to Agnes Henry/John Bailiff
One is descended from their son James (b1862)
The rest descended from John Henry Bailiff, (b1858)
Think that's it.
Tom
Tom
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Thanks hmcc, must have missed that one.
Tom
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Do they have any linked trees?
Re the MyH match:
shares 66.6cM over 3 segments, largest 25.1cM. This one matches my brother, 61.8cM over 4 segments, largest 22.5
The 3 of us share 1 triangulated segment on Chromosome 9. 20.5cM
Have you been in touch?
https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4 gives a reasonably close relationship.
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Hi Gadget,
I have been in touch with one of the 2 matches on MyHeritage. No reply from the other. The one I have been in touch with had done a lot of research and gave me the details. I checked it all myself except for recent stuff that's not available and looks correct.
The one I have been in touch with matches 61.6cM. The person has a tree on Ancestry and MyHeritage. I've not seen the tree but gave me details of each generation.
Tom
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And you're sure that you are not related via the Henry line? You say that they have been researched. Also, the Elizabeth Fell link might be worth checking.
I noticed that there are quite a few trees on Ancestry but all stop at Mary Muir and some have got back to James's parents.
I'd try contacting the matches again. Someone I've been helping eventually had replies from matches on second or third message.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
I'm not 100% sure I'm not related on the Henry side. I shall do a more thorough check on the family.
Tom
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This may be nothing, but I checked scotlandspeople and I cannot find Agnes's birth/baptism recorded.
According to the Henry tree, Samuel Henry and Margaret McKie had 8 children. Only the last one in 1842 is recorded. Also, no record of birth/baptism of a Samuel Henry c1801. Also tried Hendry or Henr* and Hendr*
Tom
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It's not unusual to not find baptisms.
However, I see from the 1871 census (transcript only) that the children are named:
John 13
James 8
Julia 5
Martha under 1.
No Samuel, Margaret or Mary.. Did they have other children who might have died or later that 1871 with these names?
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
Here is the children of John Bailiff and Agnes Henry that I have:
John Henry (later became John Henry Bailiff by 1861) born 1858,
James Bailiff, born 1862, died 1951.
Julia Bailiff, born 1865, died 1908.
Martha Bailiff, born 1871.
Richard Moody Bailiff, born 1874, died 1896
Maggie Lizzie Bailiff, born 1878, died 1902.
Tom
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I checked scotlandspeople and there is only one death of a Samuel Bailiff in Scotland.
Actually Samuel Baileff, died 1868 at Anwoth, aged 67. Mother's surname: Dunsmore.
Tom
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No births of a Samuel Bail*f* recorded in Scotland.
Tom
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No births of a Samuel Bail*f* recorded in Scotland.
Tom
I was referring to the naming pattern and wondering why they didn't use Samuel (Agnes's father) or Mary (John's mother) . I wonder who Richard and Julia were named for.
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I checked scotlandspeople and there is only one death of a Samuel Bailiff in Scotland.
Actually Samuel Baileff, died 1868 at Anwoth, aged 67. Mother's surname: Dunsmore.
Tom
That would be the Samuel who Monica referred to in #11. The brother of James Baillief - mother's surname the same.
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Hi Gadget,
I am about to check names of the children of Agnes's brothers sisters.
Tom
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Hi Gadget,
Samuel's son, James, married a Jane Harper at Gatehouse. First son was named Robert.
Out of the 7 children born to Samuel Henry, only one had a son named Samuel.
As you noticed, not following the naming system.
Tom
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Hi,
Girthon Poor Law Register (1864-1895) gives Baileff and Muir/Mure entries found on the Gatehouse Folk site.
http://www.gatehouse-folk.org.uk/detailpage.asp?d=271&ID=39
hmcc.
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On MyHeritage, my brother matched Mark Glasgow and a Dale Wright as did I. Dale shared 36.3cM with my brother, 12.1cM with me. Dale shared 24.2cM with Mark. I don't know if I'll get anything but I have sent a message to the person managing his DNA.
Tom