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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lincolnshire => Topic started by: Eilleen on Friday 01 January 21 15:20 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I am putting question on Lincolnshire board, because it happened in Lincolnshire.
all relative parties are now dead, so no one to offend .
In the last few hours of 1938 , twin boys were born in a village in Lincolnshire,
one only lived to be 13 days old, or so the story goes.
birth was registered, death was registered , ( suspicious registers )
The story told , was that the little boy was buried up the side of the local church , was this normal practice ?
and to prove this How do I go about seeing the parish register .
Eilleen , trying to clear up a old mystery , that still gives Me sleepless nights ( sometimes ) x
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Lincolnshire Burial Parish Records are available to view on the Family Search Website (Free to Register).
Information provided confirms a Burial, at a Location, but not necessarily a particular Church. However, depending on the Location, a particular Church might be identified. For a 'new born' or infant burial, it was not usual for the grave to be unmarked, althought the Church Burial Record may point to the location.
If You undertake to view the Family Search Website and find the 'new born' Burial Record and Location, then contacting a Local History Society in the area of interest, might be Your best course of action.
I should add, that contacting a Lincolnshire Local History Society might also be Your first course of action, to assist You, in Your quest.
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I am assuming you have already checked https://www.lincstothepast.com/
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I needed to see a marriage for the 1940s; the register was still at the church. This was in the late 1990s, so may not be there now.
It might be worth checking, in my case the church warden showed me the register.
There`s also FreeReg, which I`ve found to be excellent for Lincolnshire ( well done transcribers), it`s easier to negotiate than LincstothePast.
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I should have stated this on My previous Post.
Failing the identified Church holding the appropriate Burial Records, then they would most likely be deposited at the Lincolnshire Archive, at Lincoln.
If a Church Burial Record for the Twin 'new born' can be located on Family Search, then the original, non transcribed document, can be viewed at a LDS Family History Centre.
ADD: Eilleen, as You appear to be an experienced Family History Researcher, It's puzzling as to why You are posting such a Church Burial Record query, and with so little detail. From the title of Your Post, You seem to speculate that the Infant Twin didn't die, but was given away.
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This is intriguing.
What do you mean by ‘suspicious registers’?
On your earlier thread you say you have the death certificate - is there a cause of death etc?
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=835121.
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Sandblown.
If I can find proof that He was buried.
Maybe then My sleepless nights may end :)
I have been searching on and off for a few years.
I do have His birth and death cert, but that is another sad story.
Eilleen.
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Removed - you have put at the end of 1938.
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I was always led to believe that it was standard practice to place the bodies of infants in any conveniently open grave?
Maybe something to do with them not being christened?
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By1938 the practice of not allowing unbaptised babies to buried in consecrated ground should have stopped.
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Eilleen, I didn't mean to be disrespectful to Your Post, but the question was directed of where to view an original Church Burial Record, and I offered suggestions, as have a couple of the other Responses.
I understand why You can't be specific in giving details, of the birth and death of the Baby but it is difficult for anyone to suggest any other course of Research action, or speculate on the circumstances You describe.
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Eileen can I ask why you think the baby may have been given away and what happened to the twin .?
I do think its possible that documents were falsified for various reasons and there have always been illegal adoptions .
Is it a scenario you suspect ?
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Would deaths have to be certified by a medical practitioner then?
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ok, in short, I know I would be curious .
General Practitioner , at birth of His twin boys, goes to registry ,
registers both boys, but puts wrong information about his surname and occupation, ( He is married to the twins Mother )
then registers death of one of the boys, again gives wrong information.
Tells His wife one boy has died at 13 days , and that He has arranged for the boy to be buried .
has his wife put in an asylum , (He tells them she has post natal depression )
tells His remaining son later that His Mother is dead.
few years later goes to registrar , and has all information corrected ??
His son finds out 35 years later that His Mum has just died, ( still in asylum ) even though she could have been released ( with Her husbands say so )
just wondered if the deceased baby was buried,
My reason for wondering is because I also have information about wills , the woman who was there on night of birth , and other suspicious things .
honestly the things just keep coming , it's as though the Mother will not get out of My dreams ,
that sounds paranoid, but so what. :D :D :D
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If he was the local GP he would be known at the registry, so how could he give wrong information, surely?
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indeed , how did He get away with it :o
When copies of the certs were obtained, with all there changes .
the registrar said " I have never seen anything like these before ?? "
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Seems strange if the Doctor only gave a false name and occupation, but I assume the correct home address.
Being a Doctor, He could oviously supply a Death Certificate, but with the intention of giving false information, I would have thought He would have Registered the Death at another Office, not Local to Him, and given a false address.
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Eilleen, I didn't mean to be disrespectful to Your Post, but the question was directed of where to view an original Church Burial Record, and I offered suggestions, as have a couple of the other Responses.
I understand why You can't be specific in giving details, of the birth and death of the Baby but it is difficult for anyone to suggest any other course of Research action, or speculate on the circumstances You describe.
Thank you Sandblown, I had been trying through Family search records to see if I could find a burial, but no luck so far.
He also had two home addresses.
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Sandblown, thank you.
something you said about home address,
I had not noticed before on the certs He has been very vague about the address, just said the village .
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I can see why you are curious, Eilleen.
I think the ‘village’ address would have been acceptable though.
I am curious now - when the information was corrected - was it very different e.g re cause of death.
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heywood I love it when you get curious.
the certs for the twin that died ?? did not get altered to correct information ,
I think this was not needed , as far as anyone knew He was dead and gone , so His death was registered with all the in correct information, surname name , incorrect Fathers name and occupation.
the twin that lived , in 1945 his cert was altered vastly , I have also just seen another name mentioned on this one that is suspicious, ? no end to it. I just have to check this lady out who went with the Doctor to have cert amended ?
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Eilleen, the Father's (false) Name and Occupation, on the Birth Certificates, does it actually match with anyone in the near vicinity of the Village ?
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There are trees on Ancestry which give the birth of one child as 31st December and death on 13th January, although the birth was registered on 14th. There is a copy of the birth certificate with notes but difficult to read.
However, a person matching that name seems to have married twice and died in 2016.
The father appears on the 1939 Register but not with the mother. Two names are blanked out but don't follow the father's name, so may not be family. The mother is living elsewhere, possibly with the child, who is blanked out.
There are numerous newspapers mentioning the family, mainly the father's parents, and one in 1940 seems to mention the mother who was wanting to rent or buy a house in Withern, She was living at the same address as the register.
David
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DCB
Hello, that is My tree .
I have that one open to public. ( just had to close it, lots of people just taking all pictures and information and making a tree, even though they are not related ) lesson learnt, but a bit late x
Sandblown The Doctor used his middle name as a surname , put that He was an engineer ?
If you have Ancestry , you can see the bits I have compiled , Dolan family linked to Handel
I have not updated it for a while .x
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What a mystery Eilleen.
Eilleen, the Father's (false) Name and Occupation, on the Birth Certificates, does it actually match with anyone in the near vicinity of the Village ?
My first thought was perhaps the father of the twins was not the husband.
What leads you to believe the second twin may have died? Just because you can’t find his burial doesn’t mean he didn’t. Father could have fibbed about location of burial to placate the mother or other family - perhaps child was buried in a common grave, or slipped into a coffin with someone who was being buried.
If someone was committed to an asylum in those days I would think it not uncommon to fib to the child and tell him the mother had died. Is there any way that you could see her medical records? I know there are restrictions for reasons of privacy, but nok might be entitled to view them after jumping through the appropriate hoops.
I know it will not answer your specific questions, but have you considered DNA testing? If you can find a direct descendant of the mother, the father and the child, who you can get tested, results should prove that the father was the father. It may also give you matches to the other twin who you suspect may have been given away if your theory is true. It is quite possible that an adoptee or their children may have turned to DNA testing to discover their parentage.
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My goodness Eilleen,
It's like reading a horror story, quite breath taking & I really hope you find the truth.
"It is quite possible that an adoptee or their children have turned to DNA testing."
Ruskie is right...I have access to my brothers' DNA matches & it's surprising how many adoptees or children of adoptees my brother matches with!
Annie
Add...Do you think the woman who assisted may have 'adopted' the twin who supposedly died?
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Rosinish.
Thank you for your interest,
I have over the years tried to trace all leads and idea's ,
working on the idea that He gave one of the babies away , let Me to spend many hours searching families near and far connected to Him, He had many "Lady friends " and that is putting it politely.
The young girl who was there at the births , died young , no children , as far as I can tell .
Ruskie, the lady who had twins , was a very forceful lady, she had Her son with her right up until being put in a car and taken for a ride in Sept 1944, to Her surprise she was driven through the gates of the asylum , then forcibly dragged in, Her son was about 6 ? .
I just need to find early 1939 burial for twin , who may have been buried under false name of Robert Ward. I do not believe He was buried in consecrated ground , if He died when He was 13 days old, but why write out a death cert if you plan to just dispose of body, I believe He was given away, two children were just to much of a shock for the Doctor ! who had plans ! big plans x
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Have you contacted the current parish for any burial record?
I wondered if the absent twin was severely disabled and taken away to an asylum/hospital/home?
Was the cause of death an acceptable one for a baby that age?
I still can’t understand how a death certificate would not be for an actual death and therefore there would be a burial of some kind.
However, there are people who do strange/criminal/deceptive acts :-\
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heywood
over the years parish church has been contacted , nothing constructive came out of it unfortunately.
you have hit the nail on the head, there are people who do strange/criminal/deceptive acts.
Eilleen
the doctor could do as He liked, and write what He liked , this happened on many occasions.
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I investigated reports of child traffiking in 1906 the couple gave babies to.infertile couples who.mostly registered them as their own
At least 50 children were involved so I can see it happening 30 years later or even now .dna would be only way to prove origin.of these children I have names of birth mothers a few putative fathers and some of the "adoptee".families whose names were in.newspapers
I.imagine their descendants assumimg dna test is wrong because they.have all paperwork but dont.match.great great grandparents dna
yours is a.very sad story..
Surprising how many women were locked away.for the conveniance of their husbands
I can see why you have nightmares ..thanks for sharing .
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Im confused by.reply 22
San Are you refering to.the "dead" twin being found on marriage certificates
How do you know the childrens names ? Elaine didnt state that
Could you post some examples of the crossing outs
Were birth certs altered if a father was proved to be birth.father.?
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I remember that brigidmac.
Maybe the children weren’t his, or he believed that. He registered them with his middle name and then certified the death.
It looks as though the marriage was over by 1939 register time.
You would think that, as someone thought earlier, that he would be well known in the area and people would know.
I am just thinking aloud now ::)
Also, if they were twins who both survived the birth, why is there not a time on the birth certificate?
Why call them both the same first name?
Are there two birth certificates?
I can see there are two registrations so presumably must be.
Oh it’s strange. ;)
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brigidmac, thank you for that insight, I believe that just because these things happened in the past, still does not make them not important .
heywood. the time of birth was not on both birth certs, because the Father filled them in , He was the Father, He was the only one visiting Her at her isolated home , after He had certified the death of Her partner .a few months earlier. There was a lot of money in the home and other things, it really is a very long sad story, He never lived with Her as such , He carried on living at His parents home , He would "stay over " up until the day He arranged transport to the asylum .
The picture of the twin and His Father shows , no mistake who the Daddy was ;) ;)
This picture was taken after His Father took Him for a day out from the boarding school He had put Him in, a bit later in the day, He told the boy " your Mother has died ". she had only just been put in the Asylum, jumping the gun a bit ! .
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Thanks for sharing this - it is quite unnerving.
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heywood
There is lots more, hence the sometimes sleepless nights.
would love to find where twin was buried in Jan 1939,
at least that would stop Me looking for Him x
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heywood. the time of birth was not on both birth certs, because the Father filled them in ,
But the Father does not "fill in " the birth certificate -- it is the Registrar who fills in all certificates after questioning the informant. And if he is registering two births she would surely question him further as to times etc
Unless the Father / local doctor was also the local Registrar?
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There is lots more, hence the sometimes sleepless nights.
would love to find where twin was buried in Jan 1939,
at least that would stop Me looking for Him x
Eilleen...
Do yourself a favour to hopefully end your sleepless nights...take a specific 'ancestry' DNA test which is often on special offer, to see if there are any links to the 'buried' twin as it looks (to me) from the info. & results you have had, there doesn't seem to be a burial registered with an undertaker/church etc.
I think I'd have sleepless nights with the scenario you have too!
I also think your research/results/story make good reading (although not for yourself) but have you considered a small biography as it shows the deceit of a trusted professional & the (your) research to uncover the truth although ongoing for now?
Annie
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Although Robert Ward, Robert A P Ward and Robert A P McNabb are on the GRO index in 1939, I looked at the original images and Robert A P McNabb was added later, by hand, presumably as a result of the amendments to Robert A P Ward's certificate.
Puzzling as to why there were two Roberts allowed at the same time, unless the middle names made the difference.
David
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DCB,
Puzzling is an understatement :D :D
the Doctor had some sinister reasons.
He was also very good friends with H Shipton ( deputy registrar ) ?
and Mr Garrett, ( deputy registrar ) ?
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May be not good friends but he had some hold over them :o
Would they prejudice their standing and careers to take part in all this?
Perhaps it wasn’t obligatory/standard practice to enter a time of birth?
Perhaps as they were registered after the death (I think that has been mentioned) the time was accidentally omitted.
Oh perhaps, perhaps... it is quite incredible.
I don’t like to keep questioning you -I am sure you find it upsetting. If the surviving child did not know his mother was in the asylum, did her birth family visit her?
I just wonder how the account of the happenings was passed on and if they knew, why was something not done about it all.
Lastly, I won’t keep going on, could you not write to the diocese about the lack of answers from the parish? Send them a copy of this thread to show your concerns.
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Have you contacted the current parish for any burial record?
I think it's quite unlikely that the parish would have burial records dating back to 1939. They would most probably be in the relevant Record Office by now.
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I wasn’t sure of that, Jen.
Would there be graveyard plans/records?
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I wasn’t sure of that, Jen.
Would there be graveyard plans/records?
There might be plans I suppose, but a lot of churches didn’t keep good records of such things.
Eileen, have you contacted the Record Office to ask if they have the burial records for that parish for 1939?
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The Burial Records held at Lincoln, can be viewed Online. Refer to the Link in the Third Post.
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I'm wondering why alarm bells weren't ringing when info. was being changed after so many yrs & why it wasn't reported as suspicious?
Have you checked the documents for signatures, do they match although he used different names the writing would be the same, the formation of letters?
How did the twin find out he was a twin & was the deceased twin ever mentioned to the other?
Annie
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This thread came to mind when reading another one regarding asylum admissions.
It seems doubtful that one man, even if he was a doctor, could admit his wife to an insane asylum. There are processes to go through, permissions to be granted, and second opinions to be sought and signed off.
Perhaps all of these things happened legitimately, or he may have fudged it somehow, though to get several professional people willing to lie to help him with with his evil plan, seems unlikely.
I would try to seek out her medical/asylum records. :)
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Ruskie.
closed for 100 years.
so should be able to get them in dribs and drabs from 2044 to 2079 .
I will be long gone by then x
Eilleen.
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Ruskie.
closed for 100 years.
so should be able to get them in dribs and drabs from 2044 to 2079 .
I will be long gone by then x
Eilleen.
Oh, that's no good at all.
Are there ways around this, for example could the gent apply for his own mother's records? :-\
I have read threads on rootschat over the years where rules have been bent slightly when dealing with officialdom. Sometimes you need to be persistent. :-\
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Ruskie.
After a bit of a fight, He did get two pages, most was blacked out with a marker,
What was left, was what He all ready knew .
Eilleen.
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Eilleen,
Can you check both birth certificates, is all the info. identical i.e. dates, address, parents & informant?
Annie