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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Denbighshire => Wales => Denbighshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Eleri90 on Sunday 24 January 21 22:10 GMT (UK)
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I have been searching for a while now for some records of a Mary Williams born around 1874 in Coed Talon. (I have this information from the 1911 census for Fach llansannan) Mary williams lived in Llansannan in 1911 and for the most part of the rest of her life. Mary according to the 1911 census had been married to her husband William Williams for 5 years and they had 3 daughters together, Mary Blodwen, Jane, Catherine. I cannot find a marriage record for Mary and William. William williams had 2 daughters - Elizabeth and Margaret - from a previous marriage as did Mary - Gwladys and Myfanwy. Myfanwy williams when married was Myfanwy Evans and resided in Llansannan and Denbigh all her life. Myfanwy (my great grandma) and Gwladys I cannot find records of their births or where they lived until 1911, basically I can't find anything and I don't know what to do to go further with my research. Mary Williams died in 1959 and is buried with William Williams in Llansannan. My grandma was lead to believe from her mother that she never knew her real father as he died when she was born or very young in the North Wales Hospital. If anybody could help me find some information or point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it so much!!
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I have been searching for a while now for some records of a Mary Williams born around 1874 in Coed Talon. (I have this information from the 1911 census for Fach llansannan) Mary williams lived in Llansannan in 1911 and for the most part of the rest of her life. Mary according to the 1911 census had been married to her husband William Williams for 5 years and they had 3 daughters together, Mary Blodwen, Jane, Catherine. I cannot find a marriage record for Mary and William. William williams had 2 daughters - Elizabeth and Margaret - from a previous marriage as did Mary - Gwladys and Myfanwy. Myfanwy williams when married was Myfanwy Evans and resided in Llansannan and Denbigh all her life. Myfanwy (my great grandma) and Gwladys I cannot find records of their births or where they lived until 1911, basically I can't find anything and I don't know what to do to go further with my research. Mary Williams died in 1959 and is buried with William Williams in Llansannan. My grandma was lead to believe from her mother that she never knew her real father as he died when she was born or very young in the North Wales Hospital. If anybody could help me find some information or point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it so much!!
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I cannot find a marriage record for Mary and William. William williams had 2 daughters - Elizabeth and Margaret - from a previous marriage as did Mary - Gwladys and Myfanwy.
Just checking, were they both widowed or could it be one or other was not free to marry?
Was Williams her birth surname or married surname (first marriage surname?)
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This may help - a marriage notice
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3772099/3772103/30/
Mary's first married name was Thomas - her address fits Myfanwy's place of birth
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I cannot find records of their births or where they lived until 1911,
When approx were they born and where?
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Is this one of the births you are looking for?
Dec 1907 St Asaph
Williams Myfanwy - mothers maiden name Williams
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Is this the birth entry of Myfanwy?
WILLIAMS, MYFANWY mmn WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1907 D Quarter in ST ASAPH Volume 11B Page 293
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Ah just posted that on another topic somewhere :-X
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Mary Williams was born around 1874
Myfanwy was born 14th June 1905
Gwladys I am not sure of the year, I have a wedding certificate for gwladys in 1927 marrying Lloyd Morris at the age of 27 taking her dob to 1899-1900.
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This appears to be Mary Blodwen’s birth entry :-\
WILLIAMS, MARY BLODWEN mmn SIMON
GRO Reference: 1906 S Quarter in ST ASAPH Volume 11B Page 327
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This may help - a marriage notice
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3772099/3772103/30/
Mary's first married name was Thomas - her address fits Myfanwy's place of birth
New to this site so not sure how it works yet.. I am so grateful you took the time to look, this is the right Mary! Thank you! Can I ask how did you find it so quick as I have been looking since September with no luck.
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I took a punt searching the newspaper site with their address on the 1911 census "Fach Llansannan"
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I took a punt searching the newspaper site with their address on the 1911 census "Fach Llansannan"
Never even thought! Thanks so much again for your help!
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Duplicate post here
Threads merged.
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Gwladys is proving hard to find - birth and on 1901
There's only a few months between Myfanwy's birth and Mary's remarriage. Makes one wonder about the history
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Thanks Carole was just about to add that link
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Gwladys is proving hard to find - birth and on 1901
There's only a few months between Myfanwy's birth and Mary's remarriage. Makes one wonder about the history
Since starting this journey I have found out a lot of information that my grandma never knew, my great grandma was adamant her father died when she was a baby or very young on 11th November at the North Wales Hospital. I wonder if because of the times this is why she remarried so quick. I can maybe find out a little more history now thanks to you. Extremely grateful I am!! 😊😊
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This appears to be Mary Blodwen’s birth entry :-\
WILLIAMS, MARY BLODWEN mmn SIMON
GRO Reference: 1906 S Quarter in ST ASAPH Volume 11B Page 327
This is the nearest Williams/Simon marriage I could find on North Wales BMD
SIMON Annie
WILLIAMS William
1908 St Asaph, Civil Marriage
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This appears to be Mary Blodwen’s birth entry :-\
WILLIAMS, MARY BLODWEN mmn SIMON
GRO Reference: 1906 S Quarter in ST ASAPH Volume 11B Page 327
I have ordered this certificate for Mary blodwen williams and it should be here next week. Could it be that Simon was Marys birth name then her first married name was Thomas then williams after her second marriage? As Mary blodwen had 2 younger sisters, Jane and Catherine, both their birth records have mmn as Simon too 🤔
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Mary’s marriage cert. would tell you if she was previously married
WILLIAMS William
THOMAS Mary
1905 St Asaph, Civil Marriage
From North Wales BMD
Mabel found the marriage notice on your other thread........
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Mary’s marriage cert. would tell you if she was previously married
WILLIAMS William
THOMAS Mary
1905 St Asaph, Civil Marriage
From North Wales BMD
Mabel found the marriage notice on your other thread........
Thankyou so much, I will order the marriage certificate and see where I get with that.
You've all be so amazingly helpful!
Thankyou 😊😊
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This appears to be Mary Blodwen’s birth entry :-\
WILLIAMS, MARY BLODWEN mmn SIMON
GRO Reference: 1906 S Quarter in ST ASAPH Volume 11B Page 327
I have ordered this certificate for Mary blodwen williams and it should be here next week.
Could it be that Simon was Marys birth name then her first married name was Thomas then williams after her second marriage?
As Mary blodwen had 2 younger sisters, Jane and Catherine, both their birth records have
mmn Simon too 🤔
Fingers crossed
Mary’s marriage cert. would tell you if she was previously married
WILLIAMS William
THOMAS Mary
1905 St Asaph, Civil Marriage
From North Wales BMD
Mabel found the marriage notice on your other thread........
I will order the marriage certificate and see where I get with that.
Please come back and let us know what the certificates say when you receive them :)
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I will definitely post again with the info i find from the certificates thanks for your interest 😊😊
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Just to tie up one point. There are a number of Thomas children b Wrexham during the right period with mother's maiden name Simon. The couple and some of the children can be found in 1911
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as the date from the newspaper for the marriage is September 1905, the death of Mr Thomas must have been 11 November 1904. There are only 3 deaths for a male Thomas registered at Wrexham in dec qtr 1904, one is 6, one 86 and the third Samuel was 25.
Possible birth reg for Myfanwy Thomas sept qtr 1905 Wrexham 11b pg 245 mmn Simons
Possible for Gwladys as Gladys Simons jun qtr 1898 Wrexham vol 11a pg 2744 mmn -
Possible marriage Mary Simons dec qtr 1903 Holywell vol 11b pg 406 with Samuel Thomas on the same page.
Just a suggestion as the marriage cert should help sort things out.
;)
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as the date from the newspaper for the marriage is September 1905, the death of Mr Thomas must have been 11 November 1904. There are only 3 deaths for a male Thomas registered at Wrexham in dec qtr 1904, one is 6, one 86 and the third Samuel was 25.
Possible birth reg for Myfanwy Thomas sept qtr 1905 Wrexham 11b pg 245 mmn Simons
Possible for Gwladys as Gladys Simons jun qtr 1898 Wrexham vol 11a pg 2744 mmn -
Possible marriage Mary Simons dec qtr 1903 Holywell vol 11b pg 406 with Samuel Thomas on the same page.
Just a suggestion as the marriage cert should help sort things out.
;)
Wow!! So much information. I cannot Thankyou enough for the time you have taken to look.
Really appreciate it.
When certificates I've ordered arrive I will post what I find out from them 😊
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as the date from the newspaper for the marriage is September 1905, the death of Mr Thomas must have been 11 November 1904.
There are only 3 deaths for a male Thomas registered at Wrexham in dec qtr 1904, one is 6, one 86 and the third Samuel was 25.
Possible birth reg for Myfanwy Thomas sept qtr 1905 Wrexham 11b pg 245 mmn Simons
Possible for Gwladys as Gladys Simons jun qtr 1898 Wrexham vol 11a pg 2744 mmn -
Possible marriage Mary Simons dec qtr 1903 Holywell vol 11b pg 406 with Samuel Thomas on the same page.
Just a suggestion as the marriage cert should help sort things out.
;)
That all looks very promising osprey.
From NorthWales BMD
SIMONS Mary 1903 Holywell, Civil Marriage
Match Possible Spouses
LEWIS Margaret
POWELL Robert
THOMAS Samuel
1911c Mary Williams pob Coedtalon Wrexham born c 1874
From wiki
Coed Talon is a small, formerly industrial village between Leeswood and Treuddyn in Flintshire, Wales.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/gaz/FLN/Coedtalon
I did have a look to see if I could find Mary Simons (b1874) with a daughter Gwladys (b1898) on 1901 census but found nothing ???
There is one Mary & Gladys Simons but Mary is married to James Simons so definitely not the correct Mary.
There is this 1891 Piece:4617 Folio:121 Page 23 but not sure about Mary's pob
William Gronnow 36
Agnes Gronnow 38
Amy E Gronnow 3
Mary Simons 18 Flint B??h Domestic servant
and there's this possible baptism to bear in mind, whilst you await certificates
Mary Simon Baptism 13 Apr 1873 Hope, Flintshire, Wales
Father: John Simon, labourer Mother: Elizabeth
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I've just come across some interesting school records which may be of interest.
There are records for William, Mary, and Harriet Ann Simon attending Coed Talon School, parent Thomas Simon. Records give Mary's date of birth as 10 May 1874. So this 1881 census looks to be a match, the transcription is slightly wrong as the original doesn't have lodger's sister
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q272-PGLV
1871 for Thomas & wife Elizabeth
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBJ3-1LQ
Parish marriage entry 26 Dec 1870 parish church of Hope
Thomas Simon 25 bach labourer Mochy ? ? father Robert Simon labourer
Elizabeth Davies 26 spin Rhan Berfedd father Thomas labourer
witnesses George Davies & Ellinor Davies
There is a burial at Pont Blyddyn 23 July 1878 for Elizabeth Simon 34 of Black Diamond.
Then another same church 12 July 1884 for Thomas Simon 38 of Pontybodkin
see Fatal Accident at Padeswood Colliery
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3784583/3784588/46/
article here mentions he left 3 children
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3131360/3131365/17/
On the school records dated 1885, the guardian of the children is William Davies address Berth.
1891 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:4SDK-QMM
map
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102342381
possible for Mary in 1901
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSX4-11R
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Do we assume the George Davies she's with on 1901 is related to her mother (and the witness at the wedding). Looking back he does appear to have a sister ELizabeth the right age
INterested in the "Gwladys Davies" aged 5 also in the household
George Davies dies 11 Oct 1905 - found drowned
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Wow!
You guys really have been so helpful.
I am shocked how much information you can find so quickly. I was obviously doing something wrong 🤦♀️
Feeling very impatient about certificates coming! Thanks again, so much!
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pretty sure the William Davies from 1891 is Elizabeth's older brother. Even if it is not the correct Simon family, they were interesting to follow. Brother William ended up in Briton Ferry, Glamorgan as a draper/outfitter.
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Hey guys!
So I received Mary Blodwen Williams birth certificate 😁😁
The info you have all given me checks out, it states 'Mary Williams late Thomas formerly Simon' in mmn section. Its confusing me a little bit so I need to get my head around dates, names etc.
Thanks again and I will post what I find on the wedding certificate of Mary and William Williams 🙂
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So I received Mary Blodwen Williams birth certificate 😁😁
The info you have all given me checks out, it states 'Mary Williams late Thomas formerly Simon'
in mmn section.
Its confusing me a little bit so I need to get my head around dates, names etc.
Thanks again and I will post what I find on the wedding certificate of Mary and William Williams 🙂
Thanks for letting us know
Hopefully once you receive the m/c that will confirm Mary Thomas was a widow and her father's surname Simon - fingers crossed :)
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Eleri90 - have just come across this public tree on Anc*y have you seen it ?
If you have access I've added the link here https://www.rootschat.com/links/01q92/
Unfortunately no help with William's 2nd wife Mary or children Gwladys, Myfanwy, Mary Blodwen, Jane although it does show dau Catherine married and her dob 1 Jan 1910
There’s a picture of William’s first wife Margaret Jane Williams nee HUGHES b1880-d1902 and pictures of their daughters, Margaret & Elizabeth and a group photo of William with his 2nd wife Mary and daughters.
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Eleri90 - have just come across this public tree on Anc*y have you seen it ?
If you have access I've added the link here https://www.rootschat.com/links/01q92/
Unfortunately no help with William's 2nd wife Mary or children Gwladys, Myfanwy, Mary Blodwen, Jane although it does show dau Catherine married and her dob 1 Jan 1910
There’s a picture of William’s first wife Margaret Jane Williams nee HUGHES b1880-d1902 and pictures of their daughters, Margaret & Elizabeth and a group photo of William with his 2nd wife Mary and daughters.
Hi, yes I have already seen this tree, I did contact them and they gave me all the information they could about my great grandmother-Myfanwy, but as they were the grandson of William williams first wife's daughter, Maggie, they didnt know much about myfanwy as they were only half sisters.
Jane and Catherine Williams birth records I have found also.
I did also find the marriage record for William and Margaret in Abergele 1900,12th of May if my memory is correct 🤷♀️ I also found Margarets burial record in Llansannan, Margaret died on 19th December giving birth to her second daughter, Margaret. She was buried on the 23rd Dec 1902. Just less than a month later on the 20th Jan 1903 the next burial entry in the book is William williams mother, very sad I thought. Maggie as his daughter was known is on the 1911 census record for penrhywlfa? living in the Evans household (can't remember exact details and don't have my records to hand) Jane Evans the heads wife was William Williams sister.
I am going to order the marriage certificate for Mary Simon in Holywell 1903 see where that leads me 🙂
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Have you looked for the family on the 1939 register? This might help with date of births
I am going to order the marriage certificate for Mary Simon in Holywell 1903 see where that leads me 🙂
Good idea
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I received the marriage certificate of Mary Thomas and Williams Williams in 1905 today.
Mary Thomas is confirmed as a widow and her father Thomas Simon was a collier who had died when they were married.
You guys are very good at what you do and I am very grateful for your help 🙂 Thankyou so much!
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Glad that worked out. I hope her later life was happier than her early years.
:)
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Yes her early life there seems to be a lot of trauma.
Thaks very much 🙂
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I received the marriage certificate of
Mary Thomas and Williams Williams in 1905 today.
Mary Thomas is confirmed as a widow and her father Thomas Simon was a collier who had died when they were married.
You guys are very good at what you do and I am very grateful for your help 🙂
Thank you so much!
Thank you for letting us know pleased to have been of some help unravelling the mystery along with everyone else :)
I am going to order the marriage certificate for Mary Simon in Holywell 1903 to see where that leads me 🙂
If you decide to order this m/c please come back again and let us know the outcome
Good luck with your research :)
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Sorry its taken a while for me to come back and post. I've had another read of this thread and now names and dates have sunk in a little better by now, someone mentioned the simon family ending up in Briton ferry, Glamorgan. That is Marys brothers family who moved to that area 👍
I also bought the marriage certificate of Mary and Samuel Thomas in Holywell 1903. That was correct they were married on the 22nd Oct 1903 and lived at 29 Hall Street Pen-y-cae for a little over a year before Samuel Thomas sadly died on 22nd Dec 1904 from a form of pneumonia. I have a death certificate to confirm this. I also bought the certificate of my great grandma who, for 73 years my grandma, has never known her mother's birth name. Myfanwy Thomas was born 29 Hall street Pen-y-cae in 1905.
I couldn't have found this information without your help! Thankyou.
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Glad we could help!
;D
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Not sure if this is the right place to post but I'll give it a try! I need some more help finding a burial record for Samuel Thomas born 1877/1878. He died in December 1904 and his death is registered to his address at the time - Hall Street, Penycae. I have searched on and off for the last 2 years and so far I have not found a single record for his burial. He was a miner, he also got married in 1903 to Mary Simons. His father was called John and his mother was Elizabeth if I remember rightly. Any help at all with this would be greatly appreciated! 👍
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I've found a piece in the Rhos Herald (31 Dec 1904), which I think records his funeral service at Salem, Penycae on the previous Saturday. but that was the 25th!
Maybe a proper Welsh speaker might help.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Penycae/SalemWelshBaptist1
Gadget
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Burial request also posted here
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=871524.msg7427461
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I've found a piece in the Rhos Herald (31 Dec 1904), which I think records his funeral service at Salem, Penycae on the previous Saturday. but that was the 25th!
Maybe a proper Welsh speaker might help.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Penycae/SalemWelshBaptist1
Gadget
Thank you for your search. I have tried looking at the rhos herald myself but I'm unable to find it, could you send me a link of the page you found if that's isn't a bother please 🙂
My grandma and mum are Welsh speaking so will be able to help with any translation.
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I've typed it out and put into G translate and it is as I thought
Saturday, given
The mortal remains of Mr Samuel Thomas, Groes, were laid to rest in Salem cemetery, Penycae
Gadget
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Wow! Thank you so much! That's definitely him as that's where his family is from and where he lived before marrying Mary Simons. 😁 Honestly so grateful!
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In Welsh
Dydd Sadwrn, rhddwyd gweeillios marwol Mr Samuel Thomas Groes, i orphys yn mynwent Salem, Penycae
(Miss Hughes would be proud of my reading of it after so long!)
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Well done on the translation! Thanks again! You guys are great on here!
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In Welsh
Dydd Sadwrn, rhddwyd gweeillios marwol Mr Samuel Thomas Groes, i orphys yn mynwent Salem, Penycae
(Miss Hughes would be proud of my reading of it after so long!)
Da iawn wir - especially given the very bad image to text conversion in some of it
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Although Welsh (the true North Wales Welsh :D) was compulsory at school, I left the homeland for the bright lights of London in 1963 and returned to visit my parents every few months. I rarely spoke it after that!
Gadget
PS - my pronunciation is still 100% though!