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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: speedy on Sunday 28 August 05 09:07 BST (UK)
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Hi, I'm looking for information on the Thomas and Harriet Simmons family. Thomas was born Ashburnham in 1817 and Harriet, daughter of George Pilbeam was born Burwash 1820. In 1851 they apparently lived at Borzell farm, Ticehurst. I would like information on both and ancestors and descendants of Thomas. If anyone can help I will be grateful.
Thank you
Speedy
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Welcome to Rootschat :)
1861 census
Address looks like Luttenden,Ashburton,
Thomas Simmons1816 Penhurst, Sussex, Head Farmer of 100 acres employing one boy
Harriett Simmons 1821 Burwash, Sussex,Wife
Thomas Simmons age 16 born Lutifield(?) Catisfield(?) Sussex Carter, Agric Lab
Ellen Simmons 1858 Ashburnham, Sussex,Daughter
Emily Simmons 1847 Battle, Sussex,Daughter Nursemaid
Fanny Simmons 1852 Ticehurst Dau
Hannah Simmons 1854 Etchingham, Sussex,Daughter
Harriett Simmons 1851 Ticehurst, Sussex, Daughter
Joseph Simmons 1856 Ticehurst Son
Richard Simmons1859 Ashburnham, Sussex,Son
Ruth Martha Simmons 1860 Ashburnham, Sussex, Daughter
RG9/565 Battle Folio 134 Page 11
Though Thomas has birthplace of Penhurst this is the same family as on 1871 with Thomas giving birthplace of Ashburton
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Possible brother of Harriet. Dates and places match
Address looks like Homecrouch, Goudhurst Kent
Henry Pilbeam 1815 Burwash, Sussex, Head, Master Blacksmith
Hannah Pilbeam 1812 Goudhurst, Kent, Wife
Frank Pilbeam 1854 Goudhurst, Kent, Son
George Pilbeam1850 Ticehurst, Sussex, Son
Harry Pilbeam 1840 Wadhurst, Sussex, Son, Smith
John Pilbeam 1856 Goudhurst, Kent,Son
Thos Pilbeam 1852 Ticehurst, Sussex,Son
Wm Pilbeam 1842 Lamberhurst, Kent, Son
RG9/508 Cranbrook Folio 8 Page 9
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1871 census very difficult image to read - change of address and occupation?
Canal - then name of a cottage or Pub which I can't read, Milton Kent
Thomas Simmons 1817 Ashburnham, Sussex,Head Publican
Harriet Simmons 1822 Burwash, Sussex, Wife
Hannah Simmons 1854 Etchingham, Sussex, Daughter
Ellen Simmons 1858 Ashburnham, Sussex, Daughter
Richard Simmons 1859 Ashburnham, Sussex,Son
Martha Simmons 1860 Ashburnham, Sussex, Daughter
?Amy ?Simmons 1862 Ashburnham, Sussex, Daughter
RG10/891 Gravesend Folio 116 Page 42
Tricia
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Do you have this?
In 1881 Thomas and Harriet are lodgers with the 'Card' family
Church Fields, West Malling Kent
George Card 1839 Wt Malling, Kent, Head Farm Labourer
Susan 1839 Egerton, Kent,Wife
Ellen Card 1879 West Malling Kent
Alice Card1877 Wt Malling, Kent,
Thomas Card 1867 Wt Malling, Kent, Son Groom
William Card 1865 Ditton, Kent, England Son
Harriet Simmons 1821 Burwash, Sussex,Lodger
Thomas Simmons 1818 Ashburnham, Sussex,Lodger Labourer
RG11/0901 Malling Folio 23 Page 39
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In 1881 there is an Amy K Simmons lodging with a 1 month old baby!!!
Offham Road West Malling Kent
Frederick Misson abt 1850 Maidstone, Kent,Head Waterman
Frances H. Misson abt 1849 Maidstone, Kent,Wife
Christina Misson1876 Wt Malling, Kent,Daughter
Frances C. Misson abt 1880 Wt Malling, Kent, Daughter
Henry F. Misson abt 1879 Wt Malling, Kent, Son
William H. Misson abt 1875 Wt Malling, Kent, Son
Amy K. Simmons abt 1862 Ashburham, Sussex,Lodger Domestic Servant
Ernest H. Simmons 1881 West Malling, Kent,Lodger
RG11/0901 Malling Folio 22 Page 37
Tricia
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Hi there
1851 Census
HO107/ 1639/ Folio 95/ Page 84 - Borzell Farm House, Ticehurst
SIMMONDS Thomas, Head, Marr, 34, Farmer employs 4, born Ashburnham
................. Harriott, Wife, Marr, 29, born Burwash
................. Thomas, Son, Unm, 6, born Catsfield
................. Eliza, Dau, Unm, 4, born Battle
................. Harriott, Dau, Unm, 8m, born Tcehurst
SIMMONDS James, Head, 32, Farmer employs 4, born Ashburnham
................. Eliza, Wife, Marr, 25, born Battle
................. Eliza M L P, Dau, Unm, 6, born Battle
................. James, Son, Unm, 1, born Ticehurst
................. Emily, Neice, Unm, 21, born Hurstmonceux
Hope that helps
Chris in 1066
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Thank you for all your help it is quite likely that the family moved to Milton Gravesend. They had a son also a Thomas (abt 1844) who was manager of the coal company, he live at 1 Coal Store Cottage. However I dont recall them all living at the same address on the 1971 census. I do recall an Amy with a young baby but I didn't really have any details.
Thanks again
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Hi again
1841 Census
HO107/ 1108/ 10 - Hailsleden, Dallington, Near Battle
SIMMONDS Thomas, 25, Farmer
................ James, 22
................ Sylvestor, 15
................ Frances, 15
All born in county of Sussex
Looks like they were at home and unmarried in 1841 - the two 15 year olds are both females.
Chris in 1066
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This ref gives correct birth year for your Harriet
SIMMONS, Harriet
Death Quarter ending December 1887
Age at death: 67
Malling Kent
2a
339
Tricia
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Possible for Thomas though age doesn't quite tally - often doesn't, though
SIMMONS Thomas
Death Quarter ending March 1891
Malling Kent
2a
440
Age at death 78 years
Do you want any of those family members checking on census 1871 onwards???
Tricia
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Yes please to the checking of the 1871 Census. I only have information on the two older children son Thomas, and daughter Annie.
Many thanks
Sheila
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1871 census
Bodle Street, Warbleton Sussex
William Bristow1829 Hamsey, Sussex, Head Miller employing 1 man and 1 boy
Mary Ann Bristow 1832 Hartfield, Sussex, Wife
Emily Mary Bristow 1862 Hurstmouceux, Sussex,Daughter
Ansley Ann Bristow 1866 Hurstmouceux, Sussex, Daughter
Joseph Simmons 1856 Ashburnham, Sussex, Apprentice
RG10/1045 Hailsham Hellingly Folio 46 Page 24
Can't postively identify him on other census at moment
Tricia
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1881 census
Church Field West Malling Kent
Frank Hollands1856 Headcorn, Kent Head Journeyman Baker
Emily Hollands 1856 East Peckham, Kent, Wife
Emily Hollands 1874 West Malling, Kent,Daughter
Minnie Hollands 1876 West Malling, Kent, Daughter
Frank Hollands 1879 West Malling, Kent,Son
George H. Hollands 1880 West Malling, Kent,Son
Richard Simmons 1860 Ashburnham, Sussex, Lodger Farm Labourer
RG11/0901 Malling Folio 23 Page 39
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1891 census
St Leonards Street West Malling
Simmons, Richard 1859 Ashburnham, Sussex,Head Agric Lab West Simmons, Sarah 1858 Earl Weckham, Sussex, Wife Simmons, Thomas 1817 Kent, Father Widower - Birthplace difficult to read
Edward Norrington Age 2 born Sheerness Kent Nephew
RG12/670 Malling Folio 42 Page 31
As this census was taken on the 5th April 1891 the other death of Thomas - father - is incorrect :)
Tricia
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1901 census
St Leonard's Street West Malling
Richard Simmons1858 Ashburnham, Sussex, Head Farm Bailiff
Sarah Simmons 1858 East Peckham, Kent, Wife
Jane Langhorst 1830 East Peckham, Kent, Mother-in-law Widow
Emily Norrington 1891 Sheerness, Kent, Niece
RG13/743 Malling Folio 67 Page 21
Tricia
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Hi Speedy
George Pilbeam, father to Harriet was my 4 x gr grandfather. According to the 1851 census George was living at Battenhurst Farm, Ticehurst, employing 120 people.
According to my records for the Pilbeam family, and apologies if you already have any of this information:
Harriet and Thomas were married at Dallington in 1842. thomas died at West Malling in Kent. Thomas & Harriet were lodgers of George Card and his family on the 1881 census, the address was Church Fields, West Malling, Kent. Thomas was a 63 year old labourer and Harriet was aged 60. That confirms that.
Children of Harriet Pilbeam and Thomas Simmons are:
i. Annie Simmons, born Bef. 16 August 1843 in Battle or Catsfield, Sussex, England; died 09 August 1914 in Pitlochry, Perth, Scotland.
ii. Thomas Simmons, born Bef. 22 September 1844 in Catsfield, Sussex, England; died Aft. 1891.
iii. Eliza Simmons, born Abt. 1847 in Battle, Sussex, England.
iv. Harriet Simmons, born Bef. 13 October 1850 in Ticehurst, Sussex, England.
More About Harriet Simmons:
Baptism: 13 October 1850, Ticehurst, Sussex, England
v. Fanny Simmons, born Bef. 07 March 1852 in Ticehurst, Sussex, England.
More About Fanny Simmons:
Baptism: 07 March 1852, Ticehurst, Sussex, England
vi. Hannah Simmons, born Bef. 04 September 1853 in Etchington, Sussex, England
More About Hannah Simmons:
Baptism: 04 September 1853, Etchington, Sussex, England
vii. Joseph Simmons, born Bef. 29 July 1855 in Ticehurst, Sussex, England.
More About Joseph Simmons:
Baptism: 29 July 1855, Ticehurst, Sussex, England
Also this is a theory of mine but one of George's sons, James (my gr x 3 grandather) married a Sarah Simmons born 1815 in Penhurst. I think she may be Thomas's sister. Her father was called Thomas and I am still looking for him. If I find anything more I will let you know.
best wishes
Kerryb
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Hi again
If you are interested in a marriage cert for Thomas and Harriet the details are:
Year: 1842
quarter: March
District: Battle
Volume 7
Page 309
Kerryb
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Hello again Speedy
I have now extracted all the information I have on Thomas's descendents from a 179!! page document I was sent with regard to the Pilbeams.
I don't know how accurate the information is as I have not checked out all 179 pages but I hope it helps you with your research.
The information came from a distant Pilbeam relative in Australia who has done copious and thorough research on the Pilbeams from the 15th cenutry and if you would like any information on Harriet's roots let me know and I'll extract some more for you.
best wishes
kerryb
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I have been able to extract new information from all of the replies, which has been really useful. However can anyone tell me whether Thomas' brother, James Simmons or any member of his family were still living at Borzell Farm in 1861 & 1871.
Thank you again
Sheila
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Sheila
In answer to your last question, can't find a James at Borzell Farm in 1861 or 1871. There is a James who was born in Penhurst in 1819 who in 1861 and 1871 is living at Wartling with a brother Joseph born 1821 and his father, Thomas born 1787 and mother Ann born 1786.
There are various grandchildren and it looks like James's wife, Emma born Battle 1826.
I think but am yet to prove that these are parents and siblings of my Sarah also born in Penhurst.
If you would like more details let me know.
KerryB
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Hi Kerry
I did email the photographs but got conflicting messages as to whether they were sent. Unfortunately they are too large to attach here, perhaps you will let me know whether you have received them.
I thought James' wife was an Eliza, though she was born in Battle, I believe the children were named after there parents, Eliza and James. I visited Penhurst, it is so tiny I cannot believe there would have been more than one James Simmons living there.
Going back to Harriets parents George Pilbeam and Ann Weston, do you know whether Ann was married to George? Its odd that she is always referred to as a Weston and not a Pilbeam.
regards
Sheila
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Hi Sheila
Haven't received the photos yet.
Interesting what you say about you think James's wife is Eliza because on the census return there is also an Eliza born 1830 in Herstmonceux. I assumed she was married to Joseph, the sibling because she comes after him. But never assume anything. So this could be Janes' wife and Emma married to Joseph.
However on the 1871 census return, James is a widower? and Joseph and Elizabeth are still there.
Your right about the size of Penhurst, blink and you miss it. I haven't been to the church there but some years ago a friend and I parked there to do a long circular walk and we had tea in the churchyard. Years before my FH interest.
I have a date for George and Anne's marriage 21 Nov 1807 at Burwash. This information is on the document I received from Nardia in Australia. Her information came from the lady carrying out the One Name Study for Pilbeam. Incidentally Anne died in 1840 and George married again to a Phoebe Skinner.
regards
kerry
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Hi Sheila
Visited Penhurst where there are no Simmons buried and Wartling today. At Wartling several Simmons including:
Thomas Simmons buried 1871, aged 85
Ann Simmons 77 years, couldn't read date but possibly wife of Thomas.
Emma wife of James Simmons, died May 1866 40 years
James Isaac Simmons died 4 Jan 1900 aged 61 years
John Thomas Simmons died 10.4.1903
Mary Ann Simmons died 11.11.1912 aged 71 years
Charles Simmons died 27.10.1909 81 years
Susannah wife of Charles died 15.01.1907 aged 72 years
Fanny Simmons died 27.01.1927 aged 85 years
Joseph Thomas Simmons died 6.11.1933? (a bit unreadable) aged 69
wife Emily Sarah died 5.11.1936 aged 70
Anna Jane died Jan 1976 aged 72
Joseph Simmons died 27.02.1890 aged 69 years
wife Elizabeth died 21.05.1914 aged 85 years
Louisa Simmons died 3.4.1883 aged 27 years
I don't know whether any of these are the Simmons that we are both searching for and I hope it doesn't confuse matters. Some of the names ie James and Emma and Joseph and Elizabeth and Thomas and Ann fit with the 1861/1871 census returns for Wartling.
best wishes
Kerry
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Hi Kerry,
You have been busy!
I have just checked Ancestry.co 1881 census and my thoughts are that we could possibly eliminate Charles, Susannah and Fanny. They seemed to have run the local ale house "Horseshoe Inn". I wonder if it is still there!
Not too sure about James and Emma, I think James Isaac is too young our James is abt 1818
I would hope and like to think that Ann and Thomas, Joseph and Elizabeth are family members.
On the 1881 census Joseph and Elizabeth lived at Cowden Farm, Wartling were they and the parents at that farm in 1861 or 1871.
Food for thought
Best Wishes
Sheila
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Hi Sheila
Presumably the Horseshoe Inn is now the Lamb Inn next to the church at Wartling. Well worth a visit if you are ever there, the food is yummy!
I have just looked at 1861 and 1871 and yes it was Cowden Farm, Wartling.
So now we just need to prove that our Simmons from Penhurst are the Simmons at Wartling. Hmmm
Kerry
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Hi Speedy
I am noqw going to put a couple of spanners in the works!
Less convinced that Wartling Simmons are anything to do with Thomas and Harriet mianly because children James and Eliza have at Boarzell in 1851 are not mentioned on the census returns I found for James and Emma at Wartling.
Also have just found on my brand new 1851 census CD for Ticehurst and Etchingham area.
Sylvester Simmons age 32 Da Dressmaker living at Hurst Green (born Etchingham) with Richard Simmons age 63 Carpenter (born Brightling) and Betsy wi age 66 (born Salehurst).
Also grandson, presumably son of Sylvester, James age 4 born Etchingham, Scholar.
Sorry
Kerryb
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Sheila
Just to let you know that on Family History Online this weekend I have found:
Thomas and Ann Simmons, Penhurst, children:
Harriet born 1809
Sophia born 1812
Sarah (my ancestor) born 1814
James bapt 1818
Joseph bapt 1820
Sylvester, as I suspected was bapt 1818, daughter of Richard and Betsy from Etchingham
Frances also bapt 1818 was daughter of William and Mary of Ashburnham.
I suspect that William and Richard are brother's of Thomas. On IGI I found possible parents for Thomas being Richard and Lucy.
So far I have not managed to find your Thomas but will continue to search.
Kerry
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Scrub what I said about Sylvestor and Frances - have just found them:
Sivestor bapt 02/03/1823 daug of Thomas and Ann, at Chilshurst, Herstmonceux. Obviously working their way towards Wartling.
Frances bapt 29/08/1824, daug of Thomas and Ann, again at Chilshurst, Herstmonceux.
Again no sign of Thomas.
Kerryb
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Hi Sheila
Have now found Thomas under the name of Simons, baptism date 19 May 1816 at Penhurst Church. Parents Thomas and Ann. So Thomas and my Sarah were siblings and they married Pilbeam siblings.
Yesterday I went onto the LDS website and put in Thomas Simmons (father) with a date of 1786 and came away with a load of stuff going back about 4 generations. I don't know how correct it is but if you want the information let me know. Thomas was born 1786 in Brightling, not far from Penhurst. He had a younger brother Richard, as I suggested born 1788. His father appears to be called Richard as well. Sylvestor must be a family name. Richard married Elizabeth or Betsy in 1809.
I want to find out now when Thomas married Ann and who she was.
Speak soon.
Kerry
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Hi Kerry,
Really sorry I haven't replied recently, I have been so busy at work. Thank you for the latest information, you must be thrilled at finding your Sarah. So Thomas and Sarah were siblings, Ann and Thomas being their parents, that is excellent news. Ann and Thomas would have been my Great Great Great Grandparents and I would assume they are your Great Great Great Great Grandparents. The grave at Wartling is most likely our Ann and Thomas, would you have the grave reference number?
Yes please to any further information, though I do feel rather guilty as you seem to be doing most of the work.
I will now update my database and digest the latest information.
Please could you tell what the LDS website, I'm not sure I have visited that one.
Many Thanks
Sheila
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Hi Sheila
The most thrilling bit was proving that Sarah and Thomas were siblings and married Pilbeam siblings. I long had believed that to be so.
Now that I have proved the Wartling Thomas is 'our' Thomas I am going to go back to Wartling and photograph the graves. I will send you copies. Probably next week.
I attach the information I found on the Simmons family. Please note I don't know how accurate it is before checking it all. The information came from www.familysearch.org (http://www.familysearch.org) the website set up by the LDS (Latter Day Saints), a very good website resource for family historians. I have found a lot of information on there about my family but I always like to check it out for myself. This website is worth a visit though, most of the information is quite accurate.
By the way I wonder if we are related via the Payne's as well. I have Payne family across the Kent/Surrey border in Lingfield and East Grinstead, part of a huge family apparently!
Kerry
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Hi Kerry,
Thank you for the information, I will spend the rest of the evening writing it all up. I would love a photo of the grave, though I will when I get time, visit Wartling myself. My earliest photograph of a member of the Simmons family would have been Albert Simmons c1878, he would have been Thomas and Harriets Grandson. I would say he looks approx 60years old and the photograph probably taken in 1939/1940. If you like a copy for your tree I will be happy to send it to you.
I haven't carried out much research with the Paynes. William Payne 1844 my mothers paternal Grandfather was born in Chatham, he married a Rachel Pilcher. Would be strange if there was a link in that direction.
Kind Regards
Sheila
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Hi Sheila
Yes please to a photo of Albert, though he is not a direct ancestor of mine, it is always interesting to pad the tree out with as much information about the family as possible.
Kerry
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RUTH MARY3 SIMMONS (WILLIAM JUGGINS2, THOMAS1)1 was born February 15, 1855 in St. Leonards On Sea, Sussex, and died June 2, 1921 in Ilford, Essex, England
The above could be related to the Ashburnam, Simmons as they are a family from an ancestoral farming background?
Lucy
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Hi Lucy
thanks for the information, I haven't come across her yet but the Simmons is turning out to be quite a big family. So far I have managed to find Thomas Simmons, father, Thomas and his father Richard both born in Brightling. I also found his father Thomas born in Brightling 1730 and then the trail has gone cold.
It could well be that one of the children moved away from Brightling and is the line Ruth is from, I will keep my eyes open.
Kerry
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Hi Kerry,
Thank you for the information that you sent. Yesterday I visited the LDS website, to view Brightling Thomas 1786, it revealed Richard Simmons & Lucy ? being the parents of brothers Thomas and Richard. It also showed that (father) Richard's Simmons parents were Thomas Simmons and Grace Parks. Today I searched the web-site again and it now seems that Thomas Simmons (1786) parents were Richard Simmons and Lucy Morgan, with no sign of the brother Richard or the grandparents, Thomas and Grace. Please could you let me know which if any of the information is correct.
Many thanks
Sheila
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Hi Sheila
Yes I found that, there seems to be 2 sets of records on that website for the family, one complete and one imcomplete.
Richard Simmons married Lucy Morgan 1785, actually according to the SMI in Burwash not Brightling. I also found a record of Richard marrying Elizabeth Snepp on 29 October 1809 at Penhurst. This is the son of Richard and Lucy and brother to Thomas. That was found on SMI too.
I think I found some census records for Richard and Elizabeth but need to go back and recheck.
By the way I got to Wartling and too photos of the graves, but the types of stone they were, they have not come out terribly well. I found Thomas, Ann and James wife - Emma, and Joseph. I will see if I can improve them and send to you.
Kerry
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Hi Kerry,
Hope all is well with you!! Just to let you know that a relative also following the Simmons family back in time has Thomas c1700, married Elizabeth Boys on the 30th May 1721 by licence at Rye. These were the parents of Thomas 1724, married to Grace Parks. Prior to this date he believes that the surname was spelt Symonds.
Hope this is useful
Regards Sheila
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Sheila
Thanks for the information, I shall look that one up on the Sussex Marriage Index.
I imagine that before long we would find other spellings of Simmons, so wouldn't be surprised.
Kerry
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Sheila
Just to confirm your last message, I went to East Sussex Records Office recently and checked the Brightling PRs and there is no Thomas Simmons born there round 1730 so we can cross him off our list. I also found the marriage of Thomas to Elizabeth Boys on the Sussex Marriage Index, so that where he came from then!
Thanks again
Kerry
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Hello everyone -
sorry if I'm posting incorrectly but this is all new to me. I am related to the Simmons/Pilbeam through Harriet (1851) who was my great grandmother married to William Coleman, have just started researching this line so any help would be fantastic.
Thanks
Linda
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The Lamb at Wartling is definitely not nor ever has been The Horseshoe. The Horseshoe Inn is just up the road at Windmill Hill Herstmonceux. I know both these places well. I live about 20miles from either of them.
hope it helps
Linda
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Hello Linda,
I haven't been keeping up todate with my family tree, I got a bit stuck at 1600 ish and got a bit disheartened. I will check my spreadsheet later today and see if I have your gt grandmother, thinking back she must be the daughter of Harriet & Thomas Simmons.
Sheila
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The Lamb at Wartling is definitely not nor ever has been The Horseshoe. The Horseshoe Inn is just up the road at Windmill Hill Herstmonceux. I know both these places well. I live about 20miles from either of them.
hope it helps
Linda
Hi Linda
I don't know why I ever said that, because I know the Horseshoe Inn too quite well, I think at the time I got confused because Wartling parish is in two halves and I didn't realise the Horseshoe was in. I live about 10 miles away. I haven't done much research on the Simmons family lately, got stuck with an early one in the Rye area.
Kerry
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Hello Linda, Sorry for the delay, can you confirm if this is the Harriet you looking for, she was the 4th child of Harriet Pilbeam and Thomas Simmons (married 1842)
Harriet Simmons Ticehurst,Sussex Abt 13th Oct. 1850
1851 Census Borzell Farm House aged 8months
1861 Census Lattendens Ashburnham
Sheila
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Hi Sheila!
Thanks for your reply, yes she is "my" Harriett sh is my great grandmother.
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Thank you so very much, soory it's been so long but I'm very grateful a wonderful help THANK YOU
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Thomas and James were in 1851, living with their families at Boarzell Farm house Ticehurst