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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Buteshire => Topic started by: issyb2010 on Friday 12 March 21 11:41 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I am trying to find out what happened to Mary Norris (b. 1848, Glasgow) who was a domestic servant to the Crawford family in 1861. The farm was Clauchaig and was owned by the Crawfords until 1901 - all of Donald and Margaret's children never married and lived there all their lives except John. I have nothing for him living there until 1901. He did return at some point as he got Mary Norris pregnant in 1867! She had a son called Archibald Crawford Norris. I cannot find her after the 1861 census. I finally found Archibald in 1871 living with a different couple as just Archibald Crawford - a 4 year old boarder living with an 80 year old pauper and his 57 year old unmarried daughter?! Again, nothing until 1895 when he married in Paddington (London). I was wondering if anyone knew of or where John Crawford was during his missing decades (he was listed as a Tailor) or what ever happened to Mary Norris. Any info would be great.
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This possible entry for Archibald on the 1881 census:
Archibald Crawford, 14, inmate b. Rothesay, Buteshire
Address: Kibble Reformatory, Paisley Renfrewshire
Monica
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Archibald is showing as a serving soldier on his parish marriage entry in 1895. May be why he is hard to find in 1891? Have you tried checking for any possible military records for him?
Monica
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Getting a lead on Mary Norris is hard :-\
From the 1851 census, there are two possible Marys. One born c. 1847, with parents Patrick and Alice in Glasgow. She shows with father Patrick in Glasgow in 1861.
The other Mary was born earlier in Glasgow, c. 1841 and shows with parents Daniel and Mary. I think she is also in Glasgow in 1861 showing as niece.
So, these two entries can be excluded as you know that your Mary was working at the Crawford farm in 1861 :-\
Monica
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Have you viewed John Crawford's death reg or checked his marital status in 1901 when he is back at the farm? He must have left home early as I checked back on the farm till 1851 and he was not living there.
The 1901 census with his siblings shows him as born c.1823, a retired tailor.
Monica
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Hi Monica
Thanks for the info - I didn't see the reformatory one but I do know of his military records. He married in 1895 and died in 1915. Its just the early years before his army time and what happened to his parents. The Mary Norris you found whose parents are Patrick and Alice are the correct ones. Why she went all the way to Kilmory for work, again don't know - for a 16 year old girl (not sure when she started work with the Crawfords) that's some distance! I will dig some more into the reformatory one - thanks again for that.
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I finally found Archibald in 1871 living with a different couple as just Archibald Crawford - a 4 year old boarder living with an 80 year old pauper and his 57 year old unmarried daughter?!
Did the pauper and his daughter have names?
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Not sure that the Mary you have is daughter of Patrick and Alice...unless she was listed for the 1861 census in two household, with her father Patrick in Glasgow and also working at the Crawford farm?
Monica
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Possible entry for John Crawford in 1851:
John Crawford, 28, journeyman tailor b. Kilmore, Buteshire
He shows in the Hunter household at Buchanan St Smith's Land in Kilmarnock.
I assume you were able to confirm John Crawford as father from one of the services that lets you 'find the father'?
Monica
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I know about John - I mentioned all that in my initial enquiry! He never married, the first I knew of him was on the 1901 census and then on Archibald's birth certificate - don't know anything prior to that. I did find his birth register on ScotlandsPeople website. I knew he was a tailor but where would he go for 60 years! ???
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Sorry, missed the marital status bit.
Well, 1851 I posted above as a possible for John.
1881 he was at home with father and siblings.
Monica
Added: He also seems to be on the farm for the 1891 census. The entries I can't easily see him on are the 1861 and 1871 censuses.
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I know about the two census for Mary - that bit confused me too. In 1871 he was with Alexander Miller (pauper) and Mary Millar (daughter).
Sorry we are cross typing and now I am getting confused ??? I have John living back home in 1881, 1891 and 1901 - certainly nothing before 1881.
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I thought you had no trace on John Crawford up to 1901 from your earlier comments.
I have nothing for him living there until 1901...He did return at some point as he got Mary Norris pregnant in 1867! .... I was wondering if anyone knew of or where John Crawford was during his missing decades (he was listed as a Tailor)...
Monica
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One reason why a child might be boarding in a pauper household is that he might have become a charge on the parochial board, who then placed him with someone willing to look after him for a few shillings.
If the Kilmory parochial board records have survived, they might tell you why he turns up in this household, and what happened to his parents. These records should, if they exist, be in the care of Argyll and Bute Archives, but if they don't have them they ought to know where they are.
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Hi all there are a few tree's on Ancestry that lists his father as Archibald Crawford
1 tree has a copy of a poor relief application Kilmory Parish
Mary Norris date of application 22 November 1866
Place of birth unknown
Single age 19 servant
Pregnant 5 months and destitute
States she is pregnant by Archibald Crawford residing with his father at Clauchaig Farm
Says she does not know her parent names
Rosie
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John Crawford is at Clachaig farm with his siblings in 1881, 1891 and 1901.
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I see from the 1861 census that Mary Norris was aged 13, and born in Glasgow.
In the 1851 census there's a Mary Norris, 4, born Glasgow, daughter of Patrick Norris, shoemaker, 40, born Ireland, and his wife Alice, also born in Ireland.
The Roman Catholic records on Scotland's People have the baptisms of several children to Patrick Norris and Alice Corrigan or Norris, including Mary, born 8 and baptised 12 September 1847 in Glasgow.
Alice Corrigan or Norris, aged 35, mother's maiden surname Todd, died in Glasgow in 1858. That might account for Mary having gone into service at a young age. But not for her being listed twice in the same census!
Patrick Norris, 64, was buried in Dalbeth Cemetery in 1877, but his death certificate says he was 75. If he is your Mary's father, why did she tell the Kilmory parochial board she did not know the names of her parents?
Mary Norris, mother's maiden surname Corrigan, died in Glasgow in 1873 aged 26.
I think if you get those three death certificates they might clarify what happened to your Mary Norris. And of course the full parochial board application by Mary, and also look for one for Archibald separately.
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Twists and turns on this one :-\
I think father Patrick must have included Mary on his 1861 census return in error.
Poor Mary. Sad picture of her from the notes on the relief app in 1866. Maybe she did not want her father to know about her condition. A 16 yrs old RC pregnant girl?
Just by age, it makes sense that Archibald Crawford, was actually the father. Also, Mary gave their son his name as we often see with this type of birth. However, not sure father did show for the birth registration as the birth from the index is only registered under the surname of Norris, with Mary Norris for mother. He did give the name John when stating his father's name for his 1895 marriage (he stated his name was John Crawford Norris, farmer...but of course, John was a tailor. It was his uncles who continued to farm at Kilmory).
Monica
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issyb2010, with the new info, just wanted to add a little more for you to consider.
You have been looking at the farming family of Donald and Margaret Crawford who farmed at Clauchaig Farm. Understandably as this is where Mary Norris showed in 1861. However, they do not seem to have had a son called Archibald that I can see.
There is also at Clauchaig Farm another Crawford family:
John Crawford 51 Farmer Of 48 Acres
Catherine Crawford 44
Janet Crawford 19
John Crawford 17
Archibald Crawford 15
Catherine Crawford 10
Eliza Crawford 8
Margaret Crawford 6
Mary Crawford 4
Jane Mcguire 25 Servant
Bella Mcfarlane 21 Servant
Thomas Hamilton 12 Servant
Address: Clauchaig Farm
Could this be Archibald and the household that Mary was referring to that she was residing at in her 1866 application? Hopefully more details can be found in original documents that shed more light.
Monica
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Archibald not at the farm in 1871 but back there from 1881. In 1891, he looks to be running farm:
Archibald Crawford 45 Head farmer
Elizabeth Crawford 37 Sister
Janet Grogan 49 Sister
John Buchannan 45 Bro in Law (Brother-in-law)
Maggie Buchannan 35 Sister
Maggie Barclay 22 Niece
Mary Buchannan 3 Months Niece
Elizabeth Barclay 19 Niece
Janet Shields 8 Boarder
Address: Clachog, Kilmory
By 1901, John Buchannan has taken over the running of the farm, and Archibald is showing as Farm Servant Ploughman.
Monica
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This looks to be connected to Mary's application for relief. The decision by the Parochial Board. There must be separate notes relation to her actual application with the info you found earlier Rosie.
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On the application form Mary Norris says she had been a servant with Donald Crawford for 7years
At Clauchaig Farm ..
Birth certificate also on tree for Archibald Crawford Norris
Born 4 March 1867 Ballymenoch Kilmory Parish
Mother Mary Norris General farm servant
No mention of a father
I would say that is the Archibald mentioned on the 1861 census Monica
Rosie
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Rosie, can you post a link to the tree please so I can have a quick look? ADDED: Don't worry, have found it. Gosh there are an awful lot of trees for these lines! Good to see that many have original material attached to them.
Forfarian, the death you mentioned in Glasgow in 1873 is the correct one for Mary, daughter of Patrick and Alice. She is showing as married to a William McLaughlan, boilermaker journeyman.
Monica
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As a Roman Catholic, Mary would not have been summoned by the Kirk Session, but Archibald could have been, if he was a member of the Church of Scotland. If so, and the KS minutes have survived, that might confirm that he was the father.
I still think that young Archibald's parochial board application, if it can be found, is likely to be the key to this.
If Mary had been in residence in Kilmory for 7 years by 1866, she must have been sent out to work there very soon after the death of Alice Corrigan or Norris, which further strengthens the idea that Patrick and Alice were her parents.
There is no statutory record of a marriage of any Mary Norris between 1867 and 1873, to William McLaughlan or anyone else. Nor is there a reference in the RC records, or in the Irish statutory records, or in FreeBMD.
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I couldn't see a marriage for them between 1867-73. Wondered whether there was no marriage or irregular? The only thing for 1871 that I could see was:
William McLachlan 25 lodger rivetter b. Glasgow
Mary McLachlan 24 lodger b. Glasgow
They are lodging at 47 King St, Clyde Glasgow
The only other thing I found was the birth of a Thomas Norris to a Mary Norris in Glasgow in 1869 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ5R-8XT Thomas, I think, died in 1870 in Glasgow.
Monica
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Just for the record here, this is a snip of Mary Norris's death reg:
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Well done Monica you have been busy ..Sorry I could not post a link to the tree don't know how to copy and paste :-[.As you said looking for the poor relief record for Archibald Crawford Norris would be the best thing to do
Rosie
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Amazing - did anyone go to sleep last night or did you all just beaver away! You have all been fantastic, thank you very much ;D . I will sit down and go through everything. Couple of things to clear up - Archibald never ran a farm in later years. In 1895 he married Elizabeth Foster in Paddington (London), died in 1915 in Paddington. John Crawford was never married as far as the 1881 - 1901 census goes. Donald & Margaret (John's parents) never had a son called Archibald. Archibald was always known in my family as Archibald Crawford Norris. I went down the line of John Crawford (the tailor one) because of Archibald's marriage certificate. I traced John to the 1861 census where there was a Mary Norris as a servant - as I understand from family rumours (which you have to take with a pinch of salt!), Mary was a servant working for a Laird, now the Laird bit is codswallop but the servant part is true hence why I plumped for this particular Crawford family. ::)
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Rosie, can you post a link to the tree please so I can have a quick look? ADDED: Don't worry, have found it. Gosh there are an awful lot of trees for these lines! Good to see that many have original material attached to them.
Monica
Hi Monica - can you tell me what this means please?
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Interesting stuff from the Ordnance Survey Name Books (compiled in the1850s):
CLAUCHOG FARM
Rental
Factor
Robert Spiers Tenant 259.02 This is one of the few large farms in the island the greater part of the arable land in Clauchog belong to this farm, still there eight small farms North of this locally called Clauchog. Laigh Clauchog, and High Clauchog, those are already described but the factor does not recognise those differences, in name, Clauchog is bounded on the South by the sea on the West by the yellow band which divide it from Bennecarrigan, on the east by the Torrylin water which divides it from Torrylin and the Allt Mòr Cloined which divide it from Cloined on the north it is undefined in the Hills.
HIGH CLAUCHOG
Estate Map
James Stewart Clauchog
Robert Nicol Clauchog 254.14 This is but a local name and refers to four farm steadings on the north end of Clauchog
LAIGH CLAUCHOG
Estate Map
James Stewart Clauchog
Robert Nicol Clauchog
Robert Spiers Clauchog 253.14 This is but a local name and applies to five farm steadings on the farm of Clauchog.[/b]
See https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=14&lat=55.45717&lon=-5.22726&layers=5&b=1&marker=55.44542,-5.21826 - you may need to zoom in and out, and pan the map around, to see all of them.
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Couple of things to clear up - Archibald never ran a farm in later years. In 1895 he married Elizabeth Foster in Paddington (London), died in 1915 in Paddington.
I was referring to reputed father of your Archibald, Archibald Crawford born c. 1846, son of John and Catherine, from Clauchog Farm.
Monica
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Interesting stuff from the Ordnance Survey Name Books (compiled in the1850s):
That makes sense of that. Thought there might be more than one farm involved given Donald Crawford and John Crawford were both farming in the area.
Monica
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I can't make out the cause of death for Mary Norris, so have made a request for help here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=845910.0
Monica
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Cystitis, Retroversio uteri.
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Agony, therefore :'(
Poor Mary.
Monica
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there are an awful lot of trees for these lines
can you tell me what this means please?
It means that many different people have been looking into this family and have uploaded a tree to a commercial web site.
Unfortunately people often just copy a tree that they think is theirs without bothering to check that it is all correct, so if they have copied a tree that is wrong you can get many trees with the identical error. Therefore it is always necessary to regard an online tree as a pointer to the information, and to check every detail by referring to the original source, unless of course the actual original source is attached to the tree.
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Agony, therefore :'(
Poor Mary.
Monica
A quick search online suggests that retroversio uteri on its own is quite common and not necessarily problematic, but if it is combined with infection or inflammation it could well be agony.
But yes, poor Mary, dying in pain at such a young age.
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Yes so sad dying so young and in agony :'(.And not much of a life for her son also
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Archibald Crawford Norris and Elizabeth Foster were my maternal grandparents. They were married on the 25th December 1895 in Kilburn London. Archibald served in the army and fought in the Boer war. He died on 21 December 1915 of stomach cancer. Archibald did work as a tailor during his time in the army. I have a photograph of him sitting at his sewing machine. I don't think he was ever told who his father was. John Crawford brother of Archibald senior used to visit him when he was young and living on the Isle of Arran, so I think he assumed that John was his father. He was sent to reform school for stealing a loaf of bread because he was hungry, so it would appear his early life was spent in poverty.
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Welcome to RootsChat, Iaine57 :)
Monica
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And a warm welcome from me also :) :)
Rosie