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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Lydart on Thursday 01 April 21 13:12 BST (UK)
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Cleaning the church brass ready for Easter, I had a good look at the collection plate .... and realised that the design isn't English (or Welsh) and has three motifs on it which might be Arabic ? Is it ? Any ideas where it might have come from ??? And what the three motifs say ? (Positioned at 12, 4 and 8 o'clock on the plate in my photo.)
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Arabic, maybe the Bismillah? an expert will be along shortly!
Skoosh.
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Yes I think it is Arabic, found this:
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/524247212849544547/
Carol
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It looks like Morrocan design ..it's not written script
The one on carols Pinterest is script
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Think you've got it Carol, it is script, mebbes Allah the mercifull etc? my corner shop might know.
Skoosh.
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I will ask my Son later, he teaches Arabic in the RAF.
Carol
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I speak + write simple Arabic
It's not writing it's symbols.
I find flowery writing very hard but I can make out individual letters tho.dont know the words on the pin interest ones
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Thank you for your help ! So whatever is a plate with Islamic writing/symbols doing in an Anglican church in Wales ?!
I remember there was an engraving on it of who and when it was given to the church ( ? ) but stupidly I didn't take a photo of it ! I'll go back to the church a.s.a.p. and see what I can find !
And any more info anyone can add will be most useful !
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Thank you for your help ! So whatever is a plate with Islamic writing/symbols doing in an Anglican church in Wales ?!
I remember there was an engraving on it of who and when it was given to the church ( ? ) but stupidly I didn't take a photo of it ! I'll go back to the church a.s.a.p. and see what I can find !
And any more info anyone can add will be most useful !
I'd be interested in knowing if it's Islamic, which should be a no-no in a church.
There used to be a lot more Christians in the Middle East but most have been killed off or driven out by persecution. Many of those Christians would have spoken Arabic.
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I was taught Arabic by the Catholic priests in Algeria .
It's not an Islamic plate
it's one used for serving Sweet's
it would be disrespectful to eat food of something with religious writing .!
Tho I think relics from different religions appear in various churches temples mosques and synagogues From presents representing peace and goodwill
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My Son said that the three circles look like Arabic script but are so decorative that it's difficult to make out any words, the rest are just patterns. The language could be either Farsi or Urdu which he hasn't studied.
Carol
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Thank you so far .... I'll have another look at the tray/plate on Sunday and see who and when it was given to the church.
Amazing what you see when cleaning the brass !
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Cleaning the brass at home was one of my chores when I was a child for 6d a week which included cleaning my father's shoes every day as well. I remember with disgust cleaning the brass ashtrays, the smell put me off ever smoking, which is something I have always felt grateful for.
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Apparently called Cairo-ware, inscription called a Thuluth, "Present from Blackpool?" ;D
Skoosh.
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I've had another look at the 'plate/dish' and the only extra info I can add is that under the rim has been engraved "Presented to xxx church 1987" ..... so quite a new addition to the church brass, but still no idea who gave it, or why or what for !
Looks like it will forever be 'one of those mysteries' !!
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You.ll have to check church diary or find the curate /vicar /priest/ verger/ parishioners of the time .
Maybe someone will remember if there was a special event that year there .
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I still don't think it's writing .
There could be symbols for places or particular family business marks
most of the engravers in North Africa in the 1980's were illiterate and when they had to do writing copied from illuminated script .
Otherwise They had their own patterns copied + embellished over generations
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I'd like to know who gave it to the church and why .... but the vicar/church warden/parishoners from then are all long gone ! Age is creeping on ....
I'll see if I can locate PCC records from then .... but don't hold out much hope.
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Looks like it will forever be 'one of those mysteries' !!
In my experience that is typical of the Church of England. Baptism, Marriage and Deaths - they take great pains to record as much as they can. Who donated the tenor bell, why and when? A major event in the life of the Church, that is too much trouble to record. It's all "Old George would have told you, if he hadn't been dead this last 20 years."
Regards
Chas
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I'd like to see the inscription on the back
Are you reluctant to name the church
Is everything spelt correctly and does it look like English handwriting .I think an Arabic speaker would have to copy English script as if it was a design without understanding the meaning
Have you concluded that it is from Egypt ! Cairo ware
I could ask my ex flatmate on FB who has returned to Egypt .if it's a unique pattern they could do detective work from that side ..find the engraver who remembers a commission for a church that year
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Is there an archive of parish magazines? There may be one which mentions a foreign visitor to the parish.
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Church of ENGLAND ?? Kiltpin ?
Church in Wales hereabouts !!
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Church of ENGLAND ?? Kiltpin ?
Church in Wales hereabouts !!
Sorry. Slip of the keyboard - there is an A and a L and a E in both - and I am over here in the Eastern bump in the Highlands of Norfolk - and I'll think of a few more really good excuses in a moment ...
Regards
Chas
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I have asked a contact I have who understands Arabic about this plate image.
She has has told me that this is not Arabic but she says it is either Aramaic or Syriac language and that it is for the use of Christians. She says that Aramaic and Syriac are the very old root languages that developed later into Hebrew and Arabic.
She says as far as she can make out at the 12 o'clock position is 'Men' which translates as 'From'.
At the 4 o'clock position is 'Nali' which translates as 'Bible'.
At the 8 o'clock looks like 'Yalil' but she said she does not know what this means.
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I have asked a contact I have who understands Arabic about this plate image.
She has has told me that this is not Arabic but she says it is either Aramaic or Syriac language and that it is for the use of Christians. She says that Aramaic and Syriac are the very old root languages that developed later into Hebrew and Arabic.
She says as far as she can make out at the 12 o'clock position is 'Men' which translates as 'From'.
At the 4 o'clock position is 'Nali' which translates as 'Bible'.
At the 8 o'clock looks like 'Yalil' but she said she does not know what this means.
Very interesting; thanks!
I've been to a couple of services at a Coptic church and, IIRC, the hymns and prayers were in three languages, one of which was Coptic, and I can't remember the others. I might not have this exactly right, but it was something like that.
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Thank you for all the additional information.
I'll add it all to the page about the plate in the church inventory ..... when the church is open post Covid !