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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: simon316 on Tuesday 27 April 21 17:06 BST (UK)
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Hello
I have just joined this forum and very pleased to be with like minded colleagues, so this is my first (many I hope) post.
I have only been researching for 3 weeks and have a fair Tree built up but mostly unverified. So far so good and happy with that.
I have a stumbling block, though.
My Great Grandmother on my father’s side, carrying the Lyons name, was Harriet Lyons, father unknown. Her father was John Lyons and mother Mary Lyons.
However birthdates and places submitted on censuses are all different for her parents and eldest sister who disappears after the 1881 census.
John Lyons her father, not the brother) = 1839 to 1844
with birthplaces given as Cork, Waterford and Ireland.
Mary Lyons (nee Davis) = 1845 to 1852 with birthplaces given as Uxbridge, West Trayton (Drayton, I assume) and Ireland.
Ellen Lyons = 1867 with birthplaces of West Trayton (as above) and Middlesex.
No trace of her after 1881.
Harriet Lyons = born Aug 31 1886 in Northfleet, Kent. She is Catherine’s twin.
Could anyone help with any info for the parents (and Ellen) prior to coming to Gravesend and ideally the Irish place if birth and what happened thereafter to Ellen and Harriet?
I know that John Jr and Elizabeth had six to ten children each so I would guess a thousand or so descendants but I draw a blank with John Sr and Mary Sr.
Any help VERY grateful.
My very best wishes to you all.
I hope this post is correct - any problems please let me know...
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Hello and welcome :)
You've done a lot in 3 weeks.
Ellen may have married between 1881-1891 and be under her husbands name in 1891.
The 1911 census for her parents will tell you how many children have been born to the marriage and how many are still living.
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Welcome from me too
My Great Grandmother on my father’s side, carrying the Lyons name, was Harriet Lyons, father unknown. Her father was John Lyons and mother Mary Lyons.
You say her father was unknown but then name him as John Lyons? Is she the same Harriet as shown below?
Harriet Lyons = born Aug 31 1886 in Northfleet, Kent. She is Catherine’s twin.
GRO online shows their mothers maiden name as Davis
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The 1891 shows a Katherine Lyons aged 4 with sister Margaret K also 4 b Northfleet - parents John & Mary
GRO entry
1886 LYONS, CATHERINE mmn DAVIS Dec Qtr STROOD Volume 2A Page 496
1886 LYONS, HARRIET mmn DAVIS Dec Qtr STROOD Volume 2A Page 496
1891 also has Annie Lyons b 1868 Gravesend
1868 LYONS, JANE mmn DAVIS Dec Quarter GRAVESEND Volume 2A Page 402
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I wonder if Frederick Charles Lyons - born Dec 1906 Gravesend belonged to Harriet?
Not having much luck with Ellen.
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1881 indexed as Lines
Ellen is shown as 14 and Jane as 11
1871 indexed as Lions
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Sorry - father of Harriet’s child is unknown. Yes, child is Frederick, my Grandfather.
I have the birth certificates of Harriet and Catherine that show the were born within ten minutes of each other on 31 August 1886. Name of certificate is Harriet but believe changed to Margaret or perhaps name misheard by census taker.
No visible records showing though for John Lyons prior to 1871, nothing whatsoever for Mary Lyons or Davis in Kent or Middlesex prior to 1871
Census takers didn’t help - in one census the name is recorded as Syors...
Kind regards
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Presume John would have been in Ireland and maybe married there before coming to England.
The 1911 should state how many years married to narrow it down.
Back to Ellen there was a marriage in Strood - 1889 I think - but I discounted it as it linked to a Helen Dyke who was in Ireland in 1901 and single and a death as Ellen F Dyke in Middlesex.
Maybe it needs a second look. Groom was Edward Dyke - no children.
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Presume John would have been in Ireland and maybe married there before coming to England.
The 1911 should state how many years married to narrow it down.
Back to Ellen there was a marriage in Strood - 1889 I think - but I discounted it as it linked to a Helen Dyke who was in Ireland in 1901 and single and a death as Ellen F Dyke in Middlesex.
Maybe it needs a second look. Groom was Edward Dyke - no children.
I am grateful for the help re how long married; even then, there has to be a difference of opinion. I make it that John declared 50 years (making it 1861ish, 10 children, all alive but it is crossed out.
Mary says 40 years (though could be 50, 10 children all alive.
I have Jane, Harriet and Carherine’s birth certificates and ordered John Jr, William and hopefully Mary’s, plus Elizabeth’s marriage certificate. One thing I know; in 1868 when Jane was born, they was at 15 Pump Alley and Mary Lyons was formerly Davis on her birth certificate (and Catherine and Harriet’s). If nothing else, it chops three years off the searches.
I have made a request to Irish records in Cork but do not hold out any hope due to generic name and multiple birth dates and places.
On a possibly sad note, I think that not long (couple of months, tops) after the 1911 Census was compiled, Mary Lyons Sr passed away...
There’s a death recorded in 1911 but need to order the certificate for that, too.
Kind regards and best wishes...
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On a possibly sad note, I think that not long (couple of months, tops) after the 1911 Census was compiled, Mary Lyons Sr passed away...
Are you looking at this one?
Mary Lyons Sep 1911 Gravesend
That lady was 57 and yours was 66
There's one died Mar 1918 Greenwich age 75 which would fit better age wise
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John Lyons death Gravesend
Dec 1912 age 73
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On a possibly sad note, I think that not long (couple of months, tops) after the 1911 Census was compiled, Mary Lyons Sr passed away...
Are you looking at this one?
Mary Lyons Sep 1911 Gravesend
That lady was 57 and yours was 66
There's one died Mar 1918 Greenwich age 75 which would fit better age wise
Ahh - excellent! I was a week away from ordering her Death Certificate. Well spotted.
No, I didn’t see John Lyons but the dates match the 1839 birthdate that i’ve always though more realistic.
I am really grateful. A clear step in the right direction!!
Many thanks!!
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Presume John would have been in Ireland and maybe married there before coming to England.
The 1911 should state how many years married to narrow it down.
Back to Ellen there was a marriage in Strood - 1889 I think - but I discounted it as it linked to a Helen Dyke who was in Ireland in 1901 and single and a death as Ellen F Dyke in Middlesex.
Maybe it needs a second look. Groom was Edward Dyke - no children.
Blimey. I completely forgot about this reply. I saw the hint later on Ancesrtry (the only site to have it) and wow! Two birds with one stone. This is indeed Ellen Lyons - mystery solved. And Jane, her next youngest sister married Edward's brother Elias, with a life in the North Woolwich area on the boats. The details fit and have no qualms.
So what am I left with? In order, what happened Catherine Lyons, Harriet's twin? What happened to Harriet herself, my great-grandmother. She had another son William to whom I have a birth certificate for (July 29 1912, 10 Trafalgar Road, Gravesend, Kent). She later appears as a witness at Johanna's wedding (the elusive "Annie") in 1910. Did William ever marry? No visible records. And John Lyons Sr and Mary Lyons Sr - any details for either. I believe Mary (full name Mary Ann as per children's baptismal records (they lived next to St George's Church but attended St John the Evangelist Church) was the daughter of a William Davis, born approx 1816 in Broseley in Shropshire and later married to a Sarah Gates in Uxbridge/West Drayton, however, I also believe Sarah to be a stepmother). Bearing in mind the numerous descendants, from 10 children, I would hope there may be more interest from distant relatives
Though I have served further for Mary Lyons's death, bear in mind that with the numerous years of birth/ages, it could well be the same lady.
I still have no idea with the various dates as to where John Lyons Sr came from, exactly. Any other ideas? Birth Certificates and/or Marriage Certificates for all ten children available if necessary...
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Hi,
This is a bit of a long shot as I appreciate this thread was a while ago but my 2nd great grandmother was Mary Ann Lyon’s (daughter of Mary Ann Davis and John Lyons). She married a Henry Pearce and had 4 children, including my great grandfather. I have been told that Mary Pearce (formerly lyons) died young, perhaps shortly after her last child was born and I wondered as you’d been doing some research if you’d had any luck tracing her death details?