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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: maresscares on Tuesday 04 May 21 10:45 BST (UK)
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searching for the parents of John Doyle
He was born around 1830/34 according to his Military and death records
Information I have found so far
Fought in the crimean war and was injured 1849-1856
Married, Hannah Kent nee McMullen 1865
Left Ireland as a Pensioner guard on "The Racehorse" 1865, Perth Western Australia
5 Children with Hannah, 1869-1877
Died Fremantle, Western Australia, 1904
Parents listed as
Irish Register: Thomas Dunegan
Parish: Thomas (des) and Catherine Christian
Death: Patrick and Catherine Murray
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Have you looked at the actual parish register John Doyle's Parents Thomas(decd)Catherine Christian address America
number 5
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.catherine_mf_1811-1857_ma_0231
cant see why the father is entered as Dunegan mystery ?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1865/11562/8253404.pdf
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01qle/
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I've looked and i'm stumped. I've scrolled through the scanned parish records for his baptism, Lucan and surrounds. There's also no next of kin on his crimean war record, not that I can see
I originally paid to have the Civil record scanned, as it hadn't been done at that point in time. But that was to get to the bottom of the mystery of his wife. All it did was give me more questions about hi
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Can you please list all the details on the death certificate, 1904, John DOYLE.
No children in the first four years of marriage....then five children in eight years?
Where did John DOYLE and Hannah KENT marry?
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Married 1865 Dublin South and within a few months they were on the way to Perth, Western australia
Doyle, John. age 70, Born Dublin, Parents Patrick and Murray, Catherine, Death 6/10/1904 Beaconsfield
As for the children 2 of them aren't even on Births deaths and marriages, Hannahs burrial record was transcribed wrong.
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I have a theory
That John for some reason changed his surname and his mother may of had the middle name Christina. If I take those factors into account, I find these things
1820 Marriage of THOMAS DOONIGAN CATHERINE MURRAY - Lucan
1821 Baptism of CATHERINE DOONIGAN - Lucan - Parents listed as THOMAS DOONIGAN CHRISTIANA DOONIGAN
1826 Baptism of THOMAS DOONIGAN - lucan - Parents listed as THOS. DOONIGAN CHRISTIAN DOONIGAN
1831 Baptism of ANN DONEGAN - Palmerstown - Parents listed as THOS. [THOMAS] DONEGAN CHRISTINE DONEGAN
1831 Baptism of DANL DONEGAN - Palmerstown - Parents listed as THOS. [THOMAS] DONEGAN CHRISTINA DONEGAN
1833 Baptism of JNO. [JOHN] DONEGAN - Palmerstown - Parents Listed as THOMAS DONEGAN
CHRISTINA DONEGAN
1835 Baptism of MARY DONNEGAN - Palmerstown - Parents listed as THOS. [THOMAS] DONNEGAN
CHRISTINA DONNEGAN
Has anyone ever come accross a last name change while still in the their birth country and using the fathers real surname on documents?
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"...As for the children 2 of them aren't even on Births deaths and marriages, Hannahs burrial record was transcribed wrong."
What names do you have for their children...where and when born?
What do you have for Hannah's (incorrect) burial record?
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Elizabeth 1869, Perth
Maria Rebecca 1871, Perth.
John 1873, Perth
Alice 1874 perth
Thomas 1877 perth
The Cemtery that Hannah was burried in, is now a Primary school or Park. Not sure when, but someone went through and transcribed all the records, had her down as Maria Doyle. However Hannahs Death Cert date matches exactly with the Maria on the transcribed records
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".. Hannah Kent nee McMullen 1865" John DOYLE marries Hannah KENT...a widow?
What names do you see for witnesses on the marriage record, 1865?
Did Hannah bring any KENT children with her to Western Australia?
Can you please list all the information on the death certificate, 1904, John DOYLE.
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".. Hannah Kent nee McMullen 1865" John DOYLE marries Hannah KENT...a widow?
yes a widow
What names do you see for witnesses on the marriage record, 1865?
The 1st 2 links that were posted are is the correct marriage
Did Hannah bring any KENT children with her to Western Australia?
She's not listed on the ship however, but not all wives and children were. I believe there was 1 child. Honoria Kent
Can you please list all the information on the death certificate, 1904, John DOYLE.
all the information I have, has been posted
This is him https://crimeanwar-veteranswa.com/veterans-index/d-f/doyle-john-2/
and https://enrolledpensionerforcewa.org.au/epf-profiles/d/doyle-john-13th-and-55th-regiment/
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Death certificate, Western Australia, 1904, should record -
place of birth, marriage details, names of children, spouse's name, parents' names, name of informant.
What do you see, on the death certificate, 1904, for these details.....specifically from the death certificate.
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Death certificate, Western Australia, 1904, should record -
place of birth, marriage details, names of children, spouse's name, parents' names, name of informant.
What do you see, on the death certificate, 1904, for these details.....specifically from the death certificate.
Unfortunatly I don't have a copy of the death cert infront of me at this point in time, it's with another member of the family. Death Certs can also be very unreliable
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They can also be very useful. You need to see an image of the death certificate.
Do not just write down information from the certificate, as given to you by another researcher.
You need to see an image of the death certificate.
There is a four year gap between marriage, 1865, and first birth, WA, 1869.
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They can also be very useful. You need to see an image of the death certificate.
Do not just write down information from the certificate, as given to you by another researcher.
You need to see an image of the death certificate.
There is a four year gap between marriage, 1865, and first birth, WA, 1869.
At $35 a cert, WA has one of the most expensive histrical certs in the country and they're not even online. I don't mean to come across as rude, however if the parents listed on his death cert are wrong, which I'm pretty sure that they are. How is that going to help me figure out who he is and where he came from? For all i know he was the John Dunegan that I posted and he changed his surname for some unknown reason
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".. Hannah Kent nee McMullen 1865" John DOYLE marries Hannah KENT...a widow?
What names do you see for witnesses on the marriage record, 1865?
............
The marriage record has been posted by dathai in reply #1
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1865/11562/8253404.pdf
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for reference the Kent's
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01qlm/
Dunegan's
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01qln/
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for reference the Kent's
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01qlm/
Dunegan's
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01qln/
Thankyou for those
This is the article in the newspaper after his funeral as well,
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/38690026?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FW%2Ftitle%2F101%2F1904%2F10%2F15%2Fpage%2F3767137%2Farticle%2F38690026 (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/38690026?browse=ndp%3Abrowse%2Ftitle%2FW%2Ftitle%2F101%2F1904%2F10%2F15%2Fpage%2F3767137%2Farticle%2F38690026)
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Hi,
The Dunegan information is very persuasive.
May I just ask if the military record you quote is a summary or a copy of that which is available on Fold3 site (pay site through Ancestry) and also on FindMyPast.
I just wondered if there was more available in the Soldier Service Record.
Heywood
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Hi,
The Dunegan information is very persuasive.
May I just ask if the military record you quote is a summary or a copy of that which is available on Fold3 site (pay site through Ancestry) and also on FindMyPast.
I just wondered if there was more available in the Soldier Service Record.
Heywood
It's a copy of what's on Fold3, Lucky to even have that. I think most of the crimean records were destroyed
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Thanks - so not much help then :-\
Difficult for you but the Dunegan birth does look possible.
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Thanks - so not much help then :-\
Difficult for you but the Dunegan birth does look possible.
Nope, but I'll see where the Dunegan path leads me. It's not the 1st time i've seen name changes, usally first names but you never know
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WA BDM death
1323 1899 McARTHUR Mary Catherine age 33
parents John / McMULLEN Hannah birthplace Tilbury Eng
1324 1899 McARTHUR Lilian age 3
parents Peter / DOYLE Mary Catherine birthplace Jarrahdale
1325 1899 McARTHUR Bertram Walton age 11M
parents Peter / DOYLE Mary Catherine birthplace Mt Magnet
Use Trove for newspaper articles.......and Norah KENT daughter of Hannah McMULLEN.
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Has anyone ever come accross a last name change while still in the their birth country and using the fathers real surname on documents?
I have 2 cases of surname changes.
Is it possible John Doyle left Ireland for a specific reason, one which he may have felt he needed to change his surname ???
I gave up trying to follow this with all the links as I was straining my eyes to read some & having to keep click, click, clicking, enlarging etc.
It's so much easier for all when returning to a thread/post, to be able to read info. which could have been transcribed in full to here, saving time & effort all round!
Annie
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WA BDM death
1323 1899 McARTHUR Mary Catherine age 33
parents John / McMULLEN Hannah birthplace Tilbury Eng
1324 1899 McARTHUR Lilian age 3
parents Peter / DOYLE Mary Catherine birthplace Jarrahdale
1325 1899 McARTHUR Bertram Walton age 11M
parents Peter / DOYLE Mary Catherine birthplace Mt Magnet
Use Trove for newspaper articles.......and Norah KENT daughter of Hannah McMULLEN.
While that's all very interesting, I don't think she's one of mine death at 33 puts her birth around 1865-1867. im 1865 they were, in ireland and on a boat to western australian and 1866-67 were in Perth, western australia.
I also had the dates wrong for the some of the children, 1867 for Elizabeth, 1869 Rebecca, 1871 Thomas, 1874 Alice and 1877 John. Hannah Died 21 April 1891. However none of this adds to Where John doyle came from and even if his surname was Doyle
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Has anyone ever come accross a last name change while still in the their birth country and using the fathers real surname on documents?
I have 2 cases of surname changes.
Is it possible John Doyle left Ireland for a specific reason, one which he may have felt he needed to change his surname ???
I gave up trying to follow this with all the links as I was straining my eyes to read some & having to keep click, click, clicking, enlarging etc.
It's so much easier for all when returning to a thread/post, to be able to read info. which could have been transcribed in full to here, saving time & effort all round!
Annie
How did you figure out they'd changed names?
Gist of it is, I've got a john Doyle who's father's surname is Dunegen on his civl marriage record. I Have a feeling John Doyle might actually been John Dunegan, changed it for whatever reason. But kept the surmane Doyle to get his Army Pension and a job guarding on a convict ship
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Has anyone ever come accross a last name change while still in the their birth country and using the fathers real surname on documents?
I have 2 cases of surname changes.
Is it possible John Doyle left Ireland for a specific reason, one which he may have felt he needed to change his surname ???
How did you figure out they'd changed names?
Gist of it is, I've got a john Doyle who's father's surname is Dunegen on his civl marriage record. I Have a feeling John Doyle might actually been John Dunegan, changed it for whatever reason. But kept the surmane Doyle to get his Army Pension and a job guarding on a convict ship
Mine actually state 'Previously' with their original surname.
Could John Doyle have been illegitimate although he knew his father's name, didn't know him personally & preferred to keep his 'birth' name?
Annie
Add...Is not not odd, if his mother was Catherine Christina, out of 3 daughters none are named after his mother?
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“Gist of it is, I've got a john Doyle who's father's surname is Dunegen on his civl marriage record. I Have a feeling John Doyle might actually been John Dunegan, changed it for whatever reason. But kept the surmane Doyle to get his Army Pension and a job guarding on a convict ship”
He must have changed his name though before/or in order to enlist.
I saw records recently where a name change occurred after two brief enlistments elsewhere.
However, it might be an error on the marriage record.
The church record too has Catherine Christian as though it is her surname and there is the ‘America’ question.
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The church record too has Catherine Christian as though it is her surname and there is the ‘America’ question.
It's difficult to know on the marriage entry whether Christian is a middle name or a surname as all the entries differ.
All the children in Reply #5 have the mother recorded as Christine/Christiana without 'Catherine'
I'm curious about the witness Catherine Byrne...
Could she be a sister (possibly from Reply #5) i.e. it may be worth looking for a marriage around the same area of a Catherine Donegan/Doonegan to Byrne or a Catherine Doyle to Byrne?
Annie
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I have a theory
That John for some reason changed his surname and his mother may of had the middle name Christina. If I take those factors into account, I find these things
1820 Marriage of THOMAS DOONIGAN CATHERINE MURRAY - Lucan
1821 Baptism of CATHERINE DOONIGAN - Lucan - Parents listed as THOMAS DOONIGAN CHRISTIANA DOONIGAN
1826 Baptism of THOMAS DOONIGAN - lucan - Parents listed as THOS. DOONIGAN CHRISTIAN DOONIGAN
1831 Baptism of ANN DONEGAN - Palmerstown - Parents listed as THOS. [THOMAS] DONEGAN CHRISTINE DONEGAN
1831 Baptism of DANL DONEGAN - Palmerstown - Parents listed as THOS. [THOMAS] DONEGAN CHRISTINA DONEGAN
1833 Baptism of JNO. [JOHN] DONEGAN - Palmerstown - Parents Listed as THOMAS DONEGAN
CHRISTINA DONEGAN
1835 Baptism of MARY DONNEGAN - Palmerstown - Parents listed as THOS. [THOMAS] DONNEGAN
CHRISTINA DONNEGAN
Has anyone ever come accross a last name change while still in the their birth country and using the fathers real surname on documents?
Looking at these baptisms, none give the mother’s surname.
There are baptisms for
William Doonegan and Daniel Doonegan both in Palmerstown in 1838 with parents Thomas and Christian Owens. The register is shown on Ancestry but not on Irish genealogy
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01qlw/
There is a marriage here:
Marriage - Thomas Dungan and Christina Owens
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01qlv/
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Mine actually state 'Previously' with their original surname.
Could John Doyle have been illegitimate although he knew his father's name, didn't know him personally & preferred to keep his 'birth' name?
Annie
Add...Is not not odd, if his mother was Catherine Christina, out of 3 daughters none are named after his mother
Could be Illegitimate, as for none being named after the mother, it's not the first time i've seen that happen
I have a theory
That John for some reason changed his surname and his mother may of had the middle name Christina. If I take those factors into account, I find these things
1820 Marriage of THOMAS DOONIGAN CATHERINE MURRAY - Lucan
1821 Baptism of CATHERINE DOONIGAN - Lucan - Parents listed as THOMAS DOONIGAN CHRISTIANA DOONIGAN
1826 Baptism of THOMAS DOONIGAN - lucan - Parents listed as THOS. DOONIGAN CHRISTIAN DOONIGAN
1831 Baptism of ANN DONEGAN - Palmerstown - Parents listed as THOS. [THOMAS] DONEGAN CHRISTINE DONEGAN
1831 Baptism of DANL DONEGAN - Palmerstown - Parents listed as THOS. [THOMAS] DONEGAN CHRISTINA DONEGAN
1833 Baptism of JNO. [JOHN] DONEGAN - Palmerstown - Parents Listed as THOMAS DONEGAN
CHRISTINA DONEGAN
1835 Baptism of MARY DONNEGAN - Palmerstown - Parents listed as THOS. [THOMAS] DONNEGAN
CHRISTINA DONNEGAN
Has anyone ever come accross a last name change while still in the their birth country and using the fathers real surname on documents?
Looking at these baptisms, none give the mother’s surname.
There are baptisms for
William Doonegan and Daniel Doonegan both in Palmerstown in 1838 with parents Thomas and Christian Owens. The register is shown on Ancestry but not on Irish genealogy
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01qlw/
There is a marriage here:
Marriage - Thomas Dungan and Christina Owens
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01qlv/
I've been through Thomas Doyle, Patrick doyle, Thomas Dunegan, Patrick dunegan, Catherine Murray, Catherine Christian, catherine Doyle and catherine Dunegan combination that I could think of, in and around the Dublin area, and the 1820 Marriage of THOMAS DOONIGAN CATHERINE MURRAY - Lucan is the closest i've come, . Oh I even tried as far as Maynooth, which is where I found Hannah
As for the America part, i don't even want to attempt to go down that rabbit hole
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1826 Baptism of THOMAS DOONIGAN - lucan - Parents listed as THOS. DOONIGAN CHRISTIAN DOONIGAN
This is what made me think it's Catherine Murray using her middle as her first name
Oh and i've scrolled through the online parish records at the NLI
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It is very frustrating - I, too, have been going through all the variations you have identified.
You have:
1831 Baptism of ANN DONEGAN - Palmerstown - Parents listed as THOS. [THOMAS] DONEGAN CHRISTINE DONEGAN
1831 Baptism of DANL DONEGAN - Palmerstown - Parents listed as THOS. [THOMAS] DONEGAN CHRISTINA DONEGAN
Ann’s Sponsors are William and Bridget Owens
Whilst these are the only sponsors with a possible name connection, I now wonder if all those children hacpve a mother Christine/Christiana Owens.
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It is very frustrating - I, too, have been going through all the variations you have identified.
You have:
1831 Baptism of ANN DONEGAN - Palmerstown - Parents listed as THOS. [THOMAS] DONEGAN CHRISTINE DONEGAN
1831 Baptism of DANL DONEGAN - Palmerstown - Parents listed as THOS. [THOMAS] DONEGAN CHRISTINA DONEGAN
Ann’s Sponsors are William and Bridget Owens
Whilst these are the only sponsors with a possible name connection, I now wonder if all those children hacpve a mother Christine/Christiana Owens.
So very frustrating at times, I'm not ready to throw the towel in on this one yet. This isn't even my worst brickwall, which is a complete dead end.
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There are ‘Christian’ surnames in the area too but I can’t see a Catherine :-\
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Doyle, John. age 70, Born Dublin, Parents Patrick and Murray, Catherine, Death 6/10/1904 Beaconsfield
A pall bearer was Mr. W. Murray. Do you know who he was?
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Doyle, John. age 70, Born Dublin, Parents Patrick and Murray, Catherine, Death 6/10/1904 Beaconsfield
A pall bearer was Mr. W. Murray. Do you know who he was?
No, and and i've never met any of his other decendants
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As for the America part, i don't even want to attempt to go down that rabbit hole
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It looks to me that one or both of John's parents emigrated to America. John may have had siblings there.
Have you done a DNA test?
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As for the America part, i don't even want to attempt to go down that rabbit hole
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It looks to me that one or both of John's parents emigrated to America. John may have had siblings there.
Have you done a DNA test?
I haven't reached the point where i want to dna test