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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tyrone => Topic started by: Lyn54 on Tuesday 01 June 21 10:05 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I am looking to find the burial place of Joseph Liggett who died aged 83 on the 7th June 1870 at Derrycreevey, Carnteel in the parish of Aghaloo (sourced from RootsIreland). I have contacted the Presbyterian churches of Glenhoy, Minterburn, Aughnacloy and Upper Clonaneese which are all nearby to Carnteel but their records do not go back to this time. The graveyards have also been checked but no visible gravestones. Can anyone suggest how I find where he would be buried please?
I have also contacted Ballygawley Presbyterian church to try and confirm his marriage details on 11 Oct 1816 to Margaret Robinson but again, their records do not go back far enough. Is there anywhere else I could try to get these details?
Many thanks in advance.
Lyn
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Statutory recording of marriages only started in 1845. Prior to that only the church maintained records, and even those were often incomplete. According to the PRONI guide to church records, Ballygawley Presbyterian’s records start in 1842. So prior to that they either weren’t keeping any, or the records are lost. There are no alternative sources in that situation.
Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church after which she’d attend her husband’s. So it’s possible that the marriage was in a different church but if it was in Ballygawley then there are no records to find.
Regarding burial places, Presbyterians generally didn’t keep burial records as you have evidently found. You haven’t said what Joseph’s occupation was. If a farm labourer then he probably couldn’t afford a gravestone and so would be buried in an unmarked grave. The vast majority of the population in the 1800s were in unmarked graves. If that is the case, then again if the family don’t know, then you may struggle to find it. If he was a farmer then a gravestone is more likely.
People weren’t always buried in the graveyards of the church they attended (there might have been a family plot elsewhere) and it’s common to find Presbyterians in Church of Ireland graveyards. But if there wasn’t a gravestone, you will struggle to find the place of burial. It wasn’t common in rural areas to put a notice in the papers and so that’s unlikely to help either.
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Many thanks for your help Elwyn. Joseph's occupation was that of a farmer so I was rather hoping to have found a gravestone. Could I ask - would you know where would RootsIreland have got the information from about his death?
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Joseph Liggett who died aged 83 on the 7th June 1870 at Derrycreevey, Carnteel in the parish of Aghaloo (sourced from RootsIreland).
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp (certificate not yet available to view but can be view from GRONI's database.
https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/
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Hi,
........Joseph Liggett who died aged 83 on the 7th June 1870 at Derrycreevey, Carnteel in the parish of Aghaloo (sourced from RootsIreland).
Derrycreevy is in the civil parish of Carnteel. Aghaloo civil parish is to the south-east of Carnteel.
https://www.townlands.ie/tyrone/carnteel/
https://www.townlands.ie/tyrone/aghaloo/
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Many thanks for that. It looks like the information I already have from RootsIreland but I will order the death cert in the hope that it may reveal the burial site.
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Have just been able to view the death cert online. Thanks for all your help. Unfortunately it still doesn't give the location of his burial which is a shame. :(
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Irish death certificates do not list place of burial.
Was he married? If his wife died later have you tried looking for a newspaper notice for her place of burial?
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Of course they don't - I have my stupid head on today!
Joseph was a widow when he died and their last child was born in 1830 so she would have passed away between then and 1870. My gut feeling is she may well have died shortly after 1830 as there are no death listings for her.
Thanks for your time.
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Since you know Joseph Liggett's children, check what churches they married in, particularly the daughters. That would have been their parents' church, and the associated graveyard would almost surely be where Joseph Liggett and his wife were buried. Any Liggett children who married 1845+ will probably be in civil registrations, so you don't need to know the church to begin a search.
Before Ballygawley Presbyterian Church was established (and began its records in 1842), many local Presbyterian families attended and were members of Aughnacloy Presbyterian Church. In fact, the early Aughnacloy church registers refer to "Aughnacloy and Ballygawley" Presbyterian Church. For instance, the earliest Aughnacloy Presbyterian Church records on microfilm at PRONI - see MIC 1P/38, Roll 4 - include births beginning in 1812, and "Registry of the Marriages celebrated by the Rev. John Anderson in the congregation of Aughnacloy & Ballygawley from the year 1812."
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Hi Annie
Many thanks for your kind reply.
There appear to have only been 4 children from the marriage of Joseph Liggett and Margaret Robinson, three of whom were sons. One son married in Liverpool, one in Belfast (no known whereabouts) and the third married twice - in Seskinore (1865) and Minterburn Presbyterian, Aghaloo (1872). The fourth child (eldest) was a daughter, Mary Jane Liggett (b. 1821) who married Richey Magee (1815-1880). I have not been able to locate their marriage licence but presume they must have married around 1845 as their first child was born in 1846. This child, and his younger sister, were both born in Liverpool, but I haven't picked a marriage up over there either. Mary Jane and her husband Richey returned to Tyrone living in Aughnacloy. There is a memorial stone, erected by their daughter Margaret in St Matthew's church, Ballygawley (Plot D20) but unfortunately no mention of where or when they passed away.
At least two of Joseph & Margaret's children were baptised at Carnteel Presbyterian Church, Clogher in 1821 and 1823 respectively, so I guess that is another church/graveyard to look at.
Many thanks for your time.
Lyn
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I think you're confusing some of these Ulster place names. You'd really understand more about your ancestors' families and their lives if you know what places were where.
You wrote: <<At least two of Joseph & Margaret's children were baptised at Carnteel Presbyterian Church, Clogher in 1821 and 1823 respectively, so I guess that is another church/graveyard to look at.>>
"Carnteel" is a parish and "Clogher" is a parish. There is no "Carnteel Presbyterian Church, Clogher." The Presbyterian Church you're referring to would be Aughnacloy, with records beginning in 1812. The local burial ground is St. James Church of Ireland cemetery, also in Aughnacloy. All denominations could be interred there, not just Church of Ireland members.
Why don't you share more of what you've found on the 4 identified/proven children of Joseph and Margaret Liggett whom you described? Didn't the 2 children's baptism entries of 1821 and 1823 give the father's/parents' residence at the time? My Haddens and other families baptising at that church in the 'teens and 'twenties of the 19th century included the father's name and residence for most baptisms. Was each child listed as a child of Joseph Leggett/Liggett (of one spelling or another) with residence at Keady or another location?
Keady, by the way, is a townland in Errigal Keerogue parish. It's a short distance southwest of Ballygawley village, and close to the ancient townland (and church and burial grounds) of Ballynasaggart. Kenneth Allen has posted some LOVELY photos of the Ballynasaggart church and area on geograph.ie.
I assume one son of your ancestor Joseph Liggett is William Leggett/Liggett who married Margaret Crawford in 1847 at St. Michael's, Toxteth (Lancashire, England). William was a "Joiner" and he told the clerk that his father was Joseph Leggett, also a joiner. Dozens of people have this William in their trees as a son of Joseph Liggett of County Tyrone. I haven't explored the relationship further -- Liggetts are a collateral family to my direct ancestors and I haven't traced them in-depth. However, a joiner is a highly skilled woodworker/carpenter, and this could be a man who didn't farm at all; he made his living with a workshop and not with farm land. So, was the Joseph Liggett who was a "farmer" the same man as Joseph who was a "joiner"? Needs to be researched and clarified!
John Liggett who married Eliza Wallace at Minterburn Presbyterian Church in 1872 was a widower, a farmer, and a resident of Derrycreevy; he said that his father was Joseph Liggett, farmer. John's previous wife was apparently Margaret McElroy whom he married in 1865 (in Clogherny parish), as you noted. On that 1865 marriage record, John's residence was written something like "Derrygreavney, parish of Aughaloo" (probably a clerk's error for "Derrycreevy" and in the wrong parish, as well); his father was recorded as Joseph Liggett, farmer.
There are 3 townlands called Derrycreevy (of one spelling or another) in Clonfeacle parish, County Tyrone.
There was only one Liggett/Leggett of any spelling in Carnteel parish in the Tithe Applotments (1820s-1830s). There were 3 men of that surname counted in Aghaloo parish, 3 in Errigal Keerogue parish (all at Keady) and 4 in Clogher parish.
By the time of Griffith's Valuation three decades later, more Liggetts appear -- including "James" in Derrycreevy, Carnteel parish, and a James and an Elizabeth in Keady, Errigal Keerogue parish.
Back to sources that give information about your ancestor Joseph Liggett: you said you wanted to "try and confirm his marriage details on 11 Oct 1816 to Margaret Robinson." Where did you FIRST find that name as his wife and marriage date? I see it's repeated in dozens of on-line trees, but not a single one has a source for those "facts." Tracing that supposed marriage to its origins in family stories or a bible record or whatever source should be an important part of your research.
I highly recommend John Grenham's web site for excellent research sources, and the IreAtlas townlands database. Also PRONI's Guide to Church Records (downloadable as a .PDF on the PRONI web site) and Brian Mitchell's "A New Genealogical Atlas of Ireland," as well as the Irish townlands database already posted in a reply to you by another researcher. Maps are a GREAT help in understanding townlands, villages, poor law unions, and parishes.
Glad to help further if you need it --
Regards,
Annie
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Hi Annie
Thank you so much for such a detailed reply and for the corrections of the place names.
I have previously contacted a couple of the Presbyterian churches local to the area only to be told the information I am looking for, whether marriages or baptisms, isn't available as records didn't commence that early. I think a trip to PRONI seems to be the answer as the records they hold, as you suggest, start a lot earlier.
I have also looked in the Tithe Applotment Books and Griffiths Valuation but cannot bring up any of the information on Liggett/Leggett families in the Tyrone area that you seem to have.
The details of the marriage of Joseph Liggett and Margaret Robinson wereobtained from a lady who formerly lived in Tyrone and was once part of the Liggett family, by marriage. Margaret's maiden name of 'Robinson' does indeed feature as a middle name of one of her children, which gives hope that all may be correct. And this child, James Robinson Liggett, is seen on the 1851 census with his brother William in Toxteth, Liverpool and indeed lived in the same street some 10 years later.
We are also going to go up to Keady and surrounding areas in the near future to have a look around the local graveyards, in particular St Mathews.
The information I have researched up to William Liggett's marriage in Liverpool is correct. Unfortunately, it is the Irish end, starting with his father Joseph, that is proving the problem!
Again, thank you for all your help.
Best wishes
Lyn
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Lyn54,
The posting of e-mail addresses is forbidden here on RootsChat, so you will have to remove your email address to avoid spamming, internet abuse, identity abuse etc.
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Thank you - I was not aware of that and have now amended.
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Hi Annie
Thank you so much for such a detailed reply and for the corrections of the place names.
I have previously contacted a couple of the Presbyterian churches local to the area only to be told the information I am looking for, whether marriages or baptisms, isn't available as records didn't commence that early. I think a trip to PRONI seems to be the answer as the records they hold, as you suggest, start a lot earlier.
I have also looked in the Tithe Applotment Books and Griffiths Valuation but cannot bring up any of the information on Liggett/Leggett families in the Tyrone area that you seem to have.
The details of the marriage of Joseph Liggett and Margaret Robinson wereobtained from a lady who formerly lived in Tyrone and was once part of the Liggett family, by marriage. Margaret's maiden name of 'Robinson' does indeed feature as a middle name of one of her children, which gives hope that all may be correct. And this child, James Robinson Liggett, is seen on the 1851 census with his brother William in Toxteth, Liverpool and indeed lived in the same street some 10 years later.
We are also going to go up to Keady and surrounding areas in the near future to have a look around the local graveyards, in particular St Mathews.
The information I have researched up to William Liggett's marriage in Liverpool is correct. Unfortunately, it is the Irish end, starting with his father Joseph, that is proving the problem!
Again, thank you for all your help.
Best wishes
Lyn
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There was only one Liggett/Leggett of any spelling in Carnteel parish in the Tithes, but 3 in Aghaloo parish and 4 in Clogher parish.
See Tithe indexes to each parish on this very helpful County Tyrone web site, which includes PRONI source references (PRONI file numbers & microfilm numbers):
https://cotyroneireland.com/tithe/
Tithe Applotment Book Indexes
Aghaloo Parish, County Tyrone, Northern Ireland 1825
George LEGGATE - Tullyblitty
George LEYGETTE - Cumber
George LEYGETTE - Cumber
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Carnteel Parish, 1827
Nathaniel LIGGIT - Knocknarney
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Clogher parish, 1829
Andrew LIGGIT - Cornamucklagh
John LIGGIT - Lislee
Joseph LIGGIT - Tychany
Samuel LIGGIT - Corboe
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Errigal Keerogue Parish, 1832
Andrew LIGGET - Keady
James LIGGET - Keady
Joseph LIGGET - Keady
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A brief index to Griffith's Valuation is here:
Griffiths Valuation of Ireland
https://www.failteromhat.com/post1845.php
And details and maps of each parish, townland, and occupiers are listed here:
https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation
There you can read details for:
James Leggett - Derrycreevy townland, Carnteel parish, Co. Tyrone
James Leggett - Keady townland, Errigal Keerogue parish, Co. Tyrone
Elizabeth Leggett - Keady townland, Errigal Keerogue parish, Co. Tyrone
Keep in mind that "Liggett" is spelled many different ways, often phonetically and not by any spelling standards like we use today. I'd highly recommend looking in all the "L" surnames in on-line indexes for variations.
Microfilmed church records at PRONI are extensive, including several of the Presbyterian congregations you've mentioned. I do suggest researching them THOROUGHLY for references to Liggetts. Aughnacloy, Ballygawley, Minterburn, and so on.
And, don't rely too strongly on what someone "told" you about this ancestor or that ancestor. Search for the records and proofs. For instance, on the lady (married to a Liggett) telling you that "Margaret Robinson" was the wife of Joseph Liggett and the couple married in 1816, what age was this informant lady when she talked with you, when did she relate this fact to you (such as last month, or 10 years ago?), where in Co. Tyrone had she lived, and how was she in a position to know about the Liggetts? Obviously she was telling you about her husband's family -- so who told HER what she was telling YOU? She wasn't born knowing anything about the Liggetts! Did her husband's mother or father tell her, or one of her husband's cousins told her? Had she researched her husband's family? How was he descended (assuming that he WAS descended) from Joseph Liggett and Margaret Robinson?
I haven't been back to Ireland and visited the "new" PRONI building, but friends and relatives report that it's wonderful.
Annie
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From PRONI's Guide to Church Records - here is the listing for St. Matthews Church of Ireland, Errigal Keerogue parish (located in Ballygawley village). If one or more of your ancestors is interred at St. Matthews grave yard, you may find burial entries for them in these church records. If you find ANY Liggetts in St. Matthews church records (baptisms, marriages, burials), I'd make a note of those for future reference, even if you don't recognize that they fit into your ancestor's family.
ERRIGAL KEEROGUE, CO. TYRONE C.I. Errigal Keerogue (Armagh diocese)
On microfilm and viewable at PRONI:
Baptisms, 1812-1998; marriages, 1825-1994; burials, 1817-1998; confirmations, 1843-9, 1851-63 and 1870-97; vestry minutes, 1757 and 1829-1941; banns, 1819-21; preachers’ books, 1845-75; register of vestrymen, 1870-9; Sunday School roll books, 1849-73 and 1895-1969; Temperance Society minutes, 1892-1908.
In local custody: Vestry minutes, 1942-; preachers’ books, 1876-. MIC1/2; CR/1/70