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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dunbartonshire => Topic started by: thedownman93 on Thursday 10 June 21 13:03 BST (UK)
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Hi
My great great grandparents moved to Scotland, before moving back to Derry. Annie Mulhern (Allen) was living in Old or West Kilpatrick. Annie Mulhern had 2 brothers, William and John. There is a William Allen living in Old or West Kilpatrick. I believe this to be the brother as Annie Mulhern lives in the same area, John Allen lives New or East Kilpatrick, this could be the other brother.
I have the census information from 1901 but I can't any information for William, John or Mary in 1911. Thats why I think they are living in Scotland in 1911.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Londonderry_Urban_No__1/Argyle_Street/1530208/
Would anyone be able to give me some advice e.g. church's in the areas e.g. Catholic? I have tried Scotlands People but I want to be sure I am right about William and John. I am unsure about Mary Allen, the sister
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Hi there :)
So, Annie is in Dunbartonshire with her new family in 1911.
Brother William, have you found him 1901?
Have you looked at the Scottish 1911 census entries for the William and John you mention to see what they say and whether there are any further clues to work with (or be able to exclude them)?
What happened to mother Ellen after 1901?
Did Annie marry in Ireland? Have you looked for marriages for any of the three siblings in the same area?
What were their full parents' names? Sometimes you can check births to see if these were used for grandchildren.
So many questions ;)
Monica
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Long old post here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=848628.0
So, parents were William Allen, saddler, and Eleanor/Ellen Collins.
The 1901 link you have added gives ages for Annie, John and Mary. William, from the other post, 1879?
You have not yet found William in 1901.
Annie married in Derry to an Arthur Mulhern. She died in Derry in 1945.
Monica
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Ellen Collins/Allen died in Scotland in 1949. A grandson, John McDowell, registered her death. Was not able to provide great grandparents' names.
As you can see, there looks to be a second marriage after the 1901 census where she showed as widowed.
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Ellen and Edward McColgan married in 1909 https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1909/10026/5646752.pdf
They show in Old or West Kilpatrick for the 1911 census.
Monica
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Arthur Mulhern shows on the Scottish Valuation Rolls on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk until at least 1920.
1915 - Living at CROWN AVENUE/CLYDEBANK - OLD KILPATRICK - VR009600061
1920 - As above.
Edward McColgan and Ellen also show at this address up to 1930. Likely death for Edward in 1934 in Old or West Kilpartrick and Ellen shows listed there up to 1940. The online VRs on Scotlands People currently stop this year.
Monica
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The details about Ellen is correct, however i did not know Ellen Allen re married.
The only information I am looking for are the children. Annie Mulhern (Allen) I alreay have.
I don't know if Annies brothers and sisters stayed in Scotland. I just want to know what happend
to:
William Allen born 1879
John Allen born 1886
Mary Allen born 1888
Many thanks for finding Ellens wedding certificate
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The name of Ellens parents was John and Mary Collins. Mary Collins lived with Ellen until her death in 1901
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Is it possible they had chidlren together?
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Not impossible but unlikely I would think. ellen would have been nearly 50 when she married in 1909?
Their 1911 Scottish census entry might provide more general details.
Monica
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No problem, Is it likely the family went to Scotland during 1911 if they don't apper on the Irish census?
Once again thanks for finding that information
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No way of being definite on the year for Ellen and new husband Edward. For them, you have approx. a two year window. They married in 1909 and show in Scotland for 1911.
With Annie and husband Arthur, where was their first child born? Scotland or Ireland?
Monica
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This is Arthur Mulhern living in Scotland
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/record-results?search_type=People&surname=mulhern&forename=arthur&forename_so=starts&from_year=&to_year=&surname_so=exact&year[0]=1911&record_type=census
Annie Mulhern (Kilpatrick)
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/record-results?search_type=people&dl_cat=census&surname=Mulhern&surname_so=exact&forename=Annie%20&forename_so=starts&second_person_forename_so=exact&record_type=census&year%5B0%5D=1911
Patrick Mulhern aged 2
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/record-results?search_type=People&surname=mulhern&forename=patrick&forename_so=starts&from_year=&to_year=&surname_so=exact&year[0]=1911&record_type=census
Not sure if this is the brother William Allen
ALLEN
WILLIAM
1911
M
30
501/ 29/ 20
Old or West Kilpatrick
Dunbarton
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/record-results?page=1&search_type=People&surname=allen&forename=william&forename_so=starts&from_year=1911&to_year=&surname_so=exact&year%5B0%5D=1911&record_type=census
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I am also 99% certain that this is John Allen the other brother, it matches his age on his birth certiifcate. Would you be able to find any infomration?
ALLEN
JOHN
1911
M
24
501/ 47/ 19
Old or West Kilpatrick
Dunbarton
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I can't find out anything further for you unfortunately unless I pay to view the 1911 census entries. As you know, SP is pay to view only and the only source of 1911 census info. I have used some of my credits to view Ellen's death to help you along ;)
I am not sure about the entry for William in 1911. There is a William in 1901 of that age who could be the same one as the one in 1911:
Philip Allan 30
Mary Jane Allan 26
Thomas Allan 25 Brother
William Allan 20 Brother Serving Machine Maker - Machinist b. Ireland
Philip Allan 2
Mary Jane Allan 1
Philip Wilson 30 Visitor
David Smith 21 Visitor
Address: 43 New Street , Old Kilpatrick
Without having found William in 1901 in Ireland or Scotland, possibility he went further afield or may have died young?
John Allen does look a possible but his entry would need to be checked.
Monica
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You are probable right about William Allen. If he isn't in Scotland possibly in England or the US. I don't think he lived in Ireland. I will have a look for John Allen. What church would they have been buired at in Clydebank? That might be help to help me
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If you have a look on SP (free to register and run searches, you just need credits to view images) and see what shows. I have had a quick look now and not really seeing anything re burials. You are now in the 20th C and records do get harder to find online.
SP show three main RC Churches in Dunbartonshire which you can see on the RC register search pages.
Ellen's death in 1949 took place in Johnstone in Renfrewshire. Maybe some family there? John McDowall grandson registered her death so maybe this family?
Monica
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Interesting, becuase the mother Ellen McDowell, Annies sister died young, only 2 children show up on the 1911 census. It doessn't say John McDowell. There was Joesph and Nellie (the children). I will have to takke a visit when I can. Some of the McDowells must have moved to Scotland. Many thanks.