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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: RickyJack on Saturday 25 September 21 23:38 BST (UK)
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Greetings
Ive been trying to put some meat on the bones for a friend re Thomas Hunter Stuart
Thomas Hunter Stuart & Maria Teresa Tyler: Unknown parents and siblings?
1. Thomas Hunter Stuart b.1845? d.1930 ? m. never married? Thomas was a Fleet Street tailor; dandy, gambler, ran snooker tournaments and printed programs on silk; performed in theater shows, lived at Westminster and mixed in the circle of Prince of Wales. Alexander said that his father (Thomas 1.1) told him that Thomas Sr. would always say only fools and horses work!
Thomas was a billard marker, gambler, well off, lived in a big house 54 Thornbury Road, Clapham then moved to 15 Meadow Row, South Wimbleton. Eva looked after Teresa and bought the house.
It was said that Thomas went off to the Boer War in the Black Watch Regiment and may have deserted after agreeing with the Boer’s right for independence. This history was uncovered by Marie [Alexander’s daughter] and is linked to Dumfries, Scotland.
2. Maria Teresa Tyler b.1863 d.?1944. very little info known about Maria? of Surrey England
many Thanks
Rick in Australia
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Hi,
Can you please ask your friend to share the information from any BDM certificates they already hold re those 19th century ancestors. That will be helpful.
Can you please explain who is Alexander, who else is he related to? You have him as son of Thomas 1.1. What was the surname used by Thomas 1.1, how is 1.1 related to Thomas Sr.?
Who is Eva, how is she connected to Thomas Hunter STUART....
Lots of questions.... but thats a start.... :)
JM .... in NSW Australia.
Greetings
Ive been trying to put some meat on the bones for a friend re Thomas Hunter Stuart
Thomas Hunter Stuart & Maria Teresa Tyler: Unknown parents and siblings?
1. Thomas Hunter Stuart b.1845? d.1930 ? m. never married? Thomas was a Fleet Street tailor; dandy, gambler, ran snooker tournaments and printed programs on silk; performed in theater shows, lived at Westminster and mixed in the circle of Prince of Wales. Alexander said that his father (Thomas 1.1) told him that Thomas Sr. would always say only fools and horses work!
Thomas was a billard marker, gambler, well off, lived in a big house 54 Thornbury Road, Clapham then moved to 15 Meadow Row, South Wimbleton. Eva looked after Teresa and bought the house.
It was said that Thomas went off to the Boer War in the Black Watch Regiment and may have deserted after agreeing with the Boer’s right for independence. This history was uncovered by Marie [Alexander’s daughter] and is linked to Dumfries, Scotland.
2. Maria Teresa Tyler b.1863 d.?1944. very little info known about Maria? of Surrey England
many Thanks
Rick in Australia
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There is this birth
TYLER, MARIA THERESA GRANNELL
GRO Reference: 1863 S Quarter in ST GEORGE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 131
Perhaps her parents are the 6 Aug 1855 St Mary Newington, marriage of
Thomas TYLER engine driver, Poplar Row, father Thomas a carman
Jane Elizabeth GRANNELL. poplar Row, father Richard, a landing waiter at Customs
But there are a lot of M. T. Tylers to choose from. We need to know where she definitely appears in your friend’s paperwork
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:)
1901 Census may be of interest
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9C8-RFH
ADD
1891 Census https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QZWV-PW2
JM
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And 1911 is there, but I cannot find it on Family search to link.
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1939 matches 1911 address and explains Eva looking after Maria sentence
Add.birth
STUART, EVA TYLER
GRO Reference: 1899 M Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 774
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Added.
Is this “Alexander” Brother of Eva in the censuses?
TYLER, ALEXANDER STUART -
GRO Reference: 1889 M Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 654
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https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW8T-QCG
1911 ;D
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So, Maria is easy to trace back (her birthdate given as 18/8/1863 which fits with birth reg.in Sept.qtr.1863 Southwark).
However am mystified by Thomas Hunter Stuart!!
He is plain Thomas bc.1847 in 1891/1901/1911 census, and plain Thomas when he died 1930.
So, where does 'Hunter' come from? According to the 3 census above he was born in London.
Where does 'Fleet Street Tailor' come from? Cannot find him before he was with Maria in 1891, nor, like you, can I find a marriage between them.
Annette
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Added.
Is this “Alexander” Brother of Eva in the censuses?
TYLER, ALEXANDER STUART -
GRO Reference: 1889 M Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 654
I think so, and to support that notion I add :
TYLER, Marie Stuart, Lambeth, 1D/470, Sept Quarter, 1885 https://www.freebmd.org.uk/
JM
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A possible death indexed at free bdm
Thomas STUART, March 1930 Quarter, aged 83, registered Croydon, 2a/534
I wonder if Ricky's friend already had all this info that we have found via armchair look ups in just a couple of hours.
JM
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Thankyou...
There is a strong "rumour" that he didnt marry.....The Hunter bit is a real mystery.....I went with maybe his mothers maiden name for a while... Nothing
Just checked the Boer war records....cant find there either!!!!
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Can you please ask your friend for the information on any bdm certs they hold for those ancestors. See reply #1
JM
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1851 census
21 Fleet Street
Thomas STEWART 32, a Tailor, born Scotland
Sarah wife 27 born Cambridgeshire
Thomas 4
Ann 2
Sarah 6m. All born London
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1851 census
21 Fleet Street
Thomas STEWART 32, a Tailor, born Scotland
Sarah wife 27 born Cambridgeshire
Thomas 4
Ann 2
Sarah 6m. All born London
Just looking at the same family who by 1861 are STUART and living at st George Botolph, Billingsgate.
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I'd typed it, so have left it Neale. :)
1861
8 Botolph Alley
Thomas Stuart, 42, Journeyman Tailor b Scotland
Sarah wife 37, Tailoress b Cambridgeshire
Thos. son, 14 Clerk
Ann dau 12,
Sarah dau 10. all born City of London
also
James Cameron Nephew 9 born City of london
Jane Cameron 19, Visitor a servant born St Giles Mddx
Harriett Cameron 16, Visitor - a word that could be Ditto, but odd as rest of sheet has ‘do’ for ditto. Also born St Giles
William Heel 13 visitor b London
seeing Thomas as a Clerk makes me wonder about this marriage
29 Oct 1871 St Bartholomew, Moor Lane
Thomas Stuart, 25, Bach. Clerk, Red Cross St (I think). father Thomas Stuart a Tailor
Georgina Deans 22 Spinster same address, father James a Ships Carpenter
witnesses Andreas Boughgnen???
Sarah Stuart
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A feeble excuse, not knowing how to transfer links and such...however every cloud...
we do have 1891, 1901 and 1911 census thats it apart from these names....all Stuart...
also I now think the fleet street tailor was just a way of saying well dressed ...dandy....The picture Im building here "now" is some of these stories, may very well turn out to be just that stories..
Stuart, Alexander 18 Dec 1888 - Battersea 23 Nov 1969 - Merton, Greater London, England
Stuart, Charles Edward 05 Feb 1902 - Wandsworth, London, England 06 Jun 1994
Stuart, Douglas Edwin Charles 30 Dec 1892 - Battersea Jan 1979 - Lambeth, Greater London, England
Stuart, Eva 15 Jan 1899 - Wandsworth, London Nov 1998
Stuart, John - -
Stuart, Margaret 1848 27 Jan 1935 - Banffshire, Scotland
Stuart, Marie 9 Aug 1885 -
Stuart, Marie Florence 26 May 1917 - Clapham Lambeth, England 20 Dec 2003 - Fairlight, Worthing Rd Rustington
Stuart, Marie Imelda 04 Mar 1927 01 Apr 2013 - Griffith, New South Wales, Australia
Stuart, Nellie 24 Nov 1894 - Wandsworth Dec 1990 - Merton, Greater London, England
Stuart, Patricia Kathleen 01 Sep 1929 - Griffith, New South Wales, Australia 26 Nov 2006 - Griffith, New South Wales, Australia
Stuart, Thomas abt 1887 - Lambeth, London, England Oct 1956 - Surrey North eastern, Surrey, England
Stuart, Thomas - -
Stuart, Thomas Hunter 02 Oct 1844 - N K, London, England 22 Jan 1930 - Meadow Rd, Merton, Wimbledon
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Thomas Stuart senior the Tailor marries a second time in 1881 to Emma Ireland.: (st Botolf Aldgate)
His father is recorded as Thomas Stuart, solicitor deceased
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Maria Teresa Tyler was baptized Roman Catholic (image at FindMyPast). Just throwing that out there in case it helps find her marriage.
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Thomas Stuart senior the Tailor marries a second time in 1881 to Emma Ireland.: (st Botolf Aldgate)
His father is recorded as Thomas Stuart, solicitor deceased
A possible 1841 Scotland census to explore
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a151dccf4040b9d6e2a2029/thomas-stewart-1841-midlothian-st-cuthbert-s-1766-?locale=en
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Workhouse Admission
24th May 1894, discharged at own request on the 28th
Thomas Stuart age 76 of 2 King Street, Aldgate, married, A Tailor.
added
other records (Poor Law Hospital Admissions & Discharges) say in on 23rd May and out on 17th July
reason for admission - Cardiac Weakness. 'Improved' at discharge
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1891 census St Botolph Aldgate
Thomas Stewart 74, Tailor, born New Abbey, Dumfries Scotland
Emma Stewart 57, (wife #2) born Caldecote, Rutland, England
(NOTE: New Abbey is in Kirkcudbrightshire, not Dumfriesshire)
I could not find a OPR for any birth around that time in New Abbey.
DEATH REGO for Thomas (the Tailor)
Name: Thomas Stuart Age: 77
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1818
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Death Registration Place: Poplar, London, United Kingdom
Death Date: Dec 1895
Volume: 1c Page: 385
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I now think the fleet street tailor was just a way of saying well dressed ...dandy....The picture Im building here "now" is some of these stories, may very well turn out to be just that stories..
It is possible with a couple of generations named "Thomas Stuart" family stories relating to different people have ended up jumbled into one Thomas. This is often the way with family folklore - there is some grain of truth, but it has become very confused over the generations.
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The births of Marie, Thomas, Alexander and Douglas were all registered under the surname TYLER. Douglas was not Douglas Edwin Charles, just plain Douglas. This is that child's birth.
STUART, DOUGLAS EDWIN CHARLES
Mother's maiden surname: GURDEN
GRO Reference: 1893 M Quarter in ST SAVIOUR LONDON Volume 01D Page 52
Nellie, Eva and Charles were registered as STUART.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp
If they did marry then it would be between the birth of Douglas and the birth of Nellie but as no marriage can be found then it does seem unlikely.
Debra :)
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The Hunter bit is a real mystery.....I went with maybe his mothers maiden name for a while... Nothing
Where do you see him using the name 'Hunter'?
It is unlikely that either Thomas Snr or Jnr would have been of an age to serve in the Boer war.
Debra :)
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This is spot on Thankyou....
TYLER, MARIA THERESA GRANNELL
GRO Reference: 1863 S Quarter in ST GEORGE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 131
Perhaps her parents are the 6 Aug 1855 St Mary Newington, marriage of
Thomas TYLER engine driver, Poplar Row, father Thomas a carman
Jane Elizabeth GRANNELL. poplar Row, father Richard, a landing waiter at Customs
Name:
Jane Elizabeth Grannell
Gender:
Female
Record Type:
Bann
Marriage Banns Date:
1855
Marriage Banns Place:
St Mary, Newington, Southwark, England
Spouse:
Thomas Tyler
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Maria Tyler she died at 15 Meadow Row, merton UK 19 Dec 1944,
We are still missing Thomas Hunter Stuarts mother
I wasnt able to cut and paste, but here are the details for youngest son from the Certificate
Reg District Wandsworth 22 may 1902 sub district Streatham city of London
14 Letchworth street Tooting Gravenly??
Charles Edward..boy..father Thomas Stuart mother Maria Stuart formally Tyler
Billiard maker
Where does Hunter come from??? That was the name given that I posted first up....I have not seen it mentioned anywhere...I sis wonder if it was the mothers maiden name..
Nothing exciting with the Black watch military [Scottish] there are four T Stuart mentioned only one was in ww1 no one at the Boer war
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We are still missing Thomas Hunter Stuarts mother
I believe you are looking for Sarah ROSLYN /ROSLIN /ROSSIN /ROSEN (note changeable spelling)
Working from the information in the 1861 census https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2ML-QVMD
The 3 Cameron children (nieces and nephew) are the children of James Cameron (Corporal in Life Guards) and Ann (sister to Sarah Stuart)
In the 1851 census those Cameron children are with their Uncle John Roslyn.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGPJ-BG9
John Rossin bap 1806 Paxton, Huntingdonshire /Cambridgeshire (parents William and Ann) https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/58183e62e93790ec8bfca7b3/john-rossin-baptism-huntingdonshire-great-paxton-1806-12-14?locale=en
- John’s 2nd marriage 1855 (St Martin in the Fields ) to Ann Lovell - Father is William Roslyn - Matting Maker
- John Roslyn died Baldock Hertfordshire 1890 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/143799699/john-roslyn
I believe Sarah Stuart, wife to Thomas snr, and father to Thomas jnr is Sarah Roslyn.
Note - I can’t find a marriage.
The census gives Sarah born abt 1824 Gamlingay Cambridgeshire.
Sarah ROSIN baptism 25 Apr 1826. Father William, mother Ann https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5817c5b0e93790ec8b1cbb55/sarah-rosin-baptism-cambridgeshire-gamlingay-1826-04-25?locale=en
(Note: there were 5 daughters all baptised on the same day - no info on when each was born)
1841 census St Mary Islington West. Sarah Roslin age 20, born out of county, servant https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQJV-8GX
Extra info: -
• When James Cameron marries in 1873 he is named as James Roslin Cameron. Father James Cameron – soldier
• Marriage 1802: William Rosin to Ann https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5817b315e93790eb7f68aec6/ann-losen-william-rosen-marriage-cambridgeshire-eltisley-1802-03-20?locale=en
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There is this birth
TYLER, MARIA THERESA GRANNELL
GRO Reference: 1863 S Quarter in ST GEORGE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 131
Perhaps her parents are the 6 Aug 1855 St Mary Newington, marriage of
Thomas TYLER engine driver, Poplar Row, father Thomas a carman
Jane Elizabeth GRANNELL. poplar Row, father Richard, a landing waiter at Customs
But there are a lot of M. T. Tylers to choose from. We need to know where she definitely appears in your friend’s paperwork
Hi Ricky, Are you confirming that your friend already knew the info about Maria Theresa TYLER's birth and her parentage that was kindly looked up and posted at reply # 2 (see above)?
This is spot on Thankyou....
TYLER, MARIA THERESA GRANNELL
GRO Reference: 1863 S Quarter in ST GEORGE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 131
Perhaps her parents are the 6 Aug 1855 St Mary Newington, marriage of
Thomas TYLER engine driver, Poplar Row, father Thomas a carman
Jane Elizabeth GRANNELL. poplar Row, father Richard, a landing waiter at Customs
Name:
Jane Elizabeth Grannell
Gender:
Female
Record Type:
Bann
Marriage Banns Date:
1855
Marriage Banns Place:
St Mary, Newington, Southwark, England
Spouse:
Thomas Tyler
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Dear majm....my muck-up
I was sent three email ...I was working my way through them one at a time, then to discover email 3 was the certificate after your post, Turns out instead of having offered this information, the certificate was used then to confirm..so well done and Thanks
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mckha89 found that info :)
JM
Dear majm....my muck-up
I was sent three email ...I was working my way through them one at a time, then to discover email 3 was the certificate after your post, Turns out instead of having offered this information, the certificate was used then to confirm..so well done and Thanks
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Neale....
I think its possible family stories have got confused over the years??? and this is not our Thomas
Ive found 2 family tree with Thomas Hunter Stuart that married Maria Teresia Tyler ...Billiards
and 4 more trees with Thomas Stuart that married Sarah was a tailor on fleet street
Not much in their ages either the tailor 1817-1895 the Billiards maker 1844-1930...both too old to go to the Boer war
Thomas Stuart
1817–1895
BIRTH ABT 1817 • New Abbey, Dumfries, Dumfries-shire, Scotland
DEATH 29 OCT 1895 • Bow, London, England
his Son
Thomas Stewart
1847–
BIRTH ABT 1847 • London, England
DEATH Unknown
Birthabt 1847 • London, England
4 Sources
1847
(AGE)
ViewResidence1851 • 21 Fleet St, St Dunstan in the West, Middlesex, England
Thomas Stewart, 32, Tailor, b. Scotland; Sarah, Wife, 27, b. Cambridgeshire; Thomas, Son, 4, b. London; Ann, Daugh, 2, b. London; Sarah, Daugh, 6 m, b. London; Henry Birt?, Serv, U, 50, Shopman?, b. London.
1 Source
1851
4
Residence1861 • 8 Botolph Alley, Billingsgate, London, England
Thomas Stuart, 42, Journeyman Tailor, b. Scot.; Sarah, W, 37, Tailoress, b. Camblingay; Thos, S, 14, Clerk; Ann, D, 12; Sarah, D, 10; James Cameron, Neph, 9; Jane Cameron, Vis, 19, b. St Giles; Harriet Cameron, Vis, 16, b. St Giles; Others b. City of Lond.
1 Source
1861
14
Marriage29 Oct 1871 • St Bartholomew, Moor Lane, London, England
Thomas Stuart, 25, Bachelor, Clerk, Father: Thomas Stuart, Tailor; Georgina Dean, 22, Spinster, Father: James Dean, Ship Carpenter; Both res. Red Cross St; Wits: Andreas Borggren, Sarah Stuart.
Georgeanna Kate Dean
(1849–)
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I feel the person you are trying to help knows more than they are passing on to you especially re. the 'Hunter' part of his name because I now have found the following (thanks to Neale1961's posting):
Sarah Roslyn (dau. of William Roslyn, farmer) married Thomas Hunter of 78th Regt. (son of Thomas Hunter, attorney) 26/3/1844 St. Mary Magdalene, Gillingham, Kent.
With Thomas Stuart stating father was a solicitor at his second marriage tends to point to Thomas Hunter and Thomas Stuart being the same person!!!
Having not previously found birth entries for the 3 children of Thomas and Sarah I then checked GRO index under Hunter and bingo:
Thomas Hunter birth Dec.1846 West London mmn Roslyn
Ann Stuart Hunter birth Dec.1848 " "
Sarah Stuart Hunter birth Dec.1850 " "
So, family were Hunter from 1844 to 1850 and then Stuart from 1851 (census).
For your 'friend' to give the information that Thomas was Thomas Hunter Stuart (which was never included in his name in records from 1851 until his 1930 death) the above information must have been unearthed before else why would they know about the 'Hunter' part, which myself and others have asked you about on this thread.
At the moment looks like you/we should be searching for a Thomas Hunter bc.1817 rather than a Thomas Stuart (the latter producing zero results as you know). All we know for certain right now is that Thomas was Thomas Hunter, a soldier, when he married Sarah Roslyn in 1844 and that their 3 children registered as Hunter too until the family become Stuart in 1851.
Annette
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Some urban myths that Ricky may want to delve into further ...
:) :) 78th Regiment - their TARTAN is the MacKenzie tartan. ;D
:) :) 78th served in India where SNOOKER was developed out of Billiards...
JM
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Sorry was to post this with the other Thomas Stuart
Thomas Hunter Stuart
1844–1930
BIRTH 02 OCT 1844 • N K, London, England
DEATH 22 JAN 1930 • Meadow Rd, Merton, Wimbledon
Birth02 Oct 1844 • N K, London, England
4 Sources
1844
(AGE)
ViewMilitary10 Mar 1864 • Hounslow
1 Source
1864
19
Marriage1884
Maria Teresa Tyler
(1863–1944)
1 Source
1884
40
Residence1891 • Battersea, London, England
Relation to Head: Head
1 Source
1891
47
Residence1901 • Tooting Graveney, London, England
Relation to Head of House: Head
1 Source
1901
57
Residence02 Apr 1911 • Merton, Surrey, England
Marital Status: Married; Relation to Head of House: Head
1 Source
1911
66
Death22 Jan 1930 • Meadow Rd, Merton, Wimbledon
1930
85
Cause of Death
Lobar Pneumonia
Occupation
Commision Agent
Occupation
Billiard Referee
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Ricky, if you are copy pasting, please don't, as that could cause copyright issues, and RChat's T & C. It is best to actually transcribe the information yourself, and of course for your typing to err.... include the headings for each piece of 'data' that you post.
JM
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Thanks...got caught up in the excitement...
Ive been trying to ring and find out whats the story with the Hunter thing...Im quite certain Their family believe what they sent to me and I posted however Annette hit the nail on the head...how did they know about the Hunter bit then go with another family line....and to make thing worser..
put the two stories together...on a re read
Thomas Hunter Stuart b.1845? d.1930 ? m. never married? Thomas was a Fleet Street tailor; dandy, gambler, ran snooker tournaments and printed programs on silk; performed in theater shows, lived at Westminster
Thomas was a billiard marker, gambler, well off, lived in a big house 54 Thornbury Road, Clapham then moved to 15 Meadow Row, South Wimbleton
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Annette 7. Good progress !
Interesting to note that Sarah Roslin in 1841 census was working as a servant for an Attorney. You can understand how she might meet another Attorney visiting the house.
RickyJack, it looks like you are copying and posting from an online tree. I would recommend not looking at online trees which are quite often full of errors, and is maybe why the confusion with the information in the opening posts has arisen.
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You seem to have been posting details from an online tree - remember, what information is put on any tree is only what the submitter thinks and not necessarily fact i.e. that is why we keep asking questions but it's the facts we go by.
As I've clearly stated, Thomas was Hunter in the army (78th regt.), Hunter when he married Sarah Roslyn 1844 and their 3 children's birth 1846-1850 all registered as Hunter (with the 2 girls have Stuart as a second name). Then, family name becomes Stuart from 1851. Interestingly, electoral registers for 1901 shows Thomas as Thomas Stuart Hunter!!!
An Ancestry tree shows birthdate for Thomas as 2/10/1844 which is what you quoted earlier - don't know source for this as not given but it is incorrect!!! It may have been 2nd October but not 1844. His birth - registered as Hunter as I quoted earlier - was in Dec.qtr.1846 .
Scottish naming traditions allow a child to be given the name of their natural father even if they are illegitimate. Clearly it would appear that Thomas parents were Hunter and Stuart but which way round? (My interpretation is it sounds like he was born Hunter, to an unmarried Miss Hunter, but that his natural father was a Thomas Stuart(or Stewart) attorney/solicitor, and that he assumed his fathers surname in 1851).
Annette
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Well set out to find the Mother of Thomas Hunter Stuart, What an unusual twist....two storries rolled into one the tailor and the Billiard maker and then the name twist.
Only ever seen that once before, rather than write Illegitimate or Bastard Kid they carried the mothers maiden name through the line....anyway never set out to find a skeleton, and Im sure those 8 familytrees on Ancestry will be able to make the necessary corrections, and move on.
One question remains, Who knew about the name Hunter and .......
Many Cheers and Thankyou all
Rick in Tasmania
1/ Thomas Hunter ..attorney
married
????
had issue
2/ Thomas Hunter b. ??...Tailor 78 Regt
married 26.3.1844 Kent
Sarah Roslyn b. 1824 marriage 2 Emma Faulks Wignell 1834-1917 dau of William Roslyn [farmer]
had issue
3/ Sarah Stuart Hunter 1848 West London...Im sure I saw Sarah as a patient
3/ Ann Stuart Hunter b. 1848 West London
married 1873
James Roslin Cameron.........corporal of Life Guards...father was James Cameron
had issue
4/ 3 kids
4/ Jane Cameron
4/ Elizabeth Ann Cameron b 1876
3/ Thomas Hunter b. 1846 West London...................Thomas Hunter Stuart 1844-1930
married 1884
Maria Teresia Tyler b. 1863-1964 Roman Catholic
had issue 7 kids.....from here down Im not worried about as I believe its probably correct
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3/ Thomas Hunter b. 1846 West London...................Thomas Hunter Stuart 1844-1930
married 1884
Maria Teresia Tyler b. 1863-1964 Roman Catholic
had issue 7 kids.....from here down Im not worried about as I believe its probably correct
Have I missed something?
Married 1884?
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Hi there,
Each family history buff can decide for themselves what 'standards of proof' they will apply to the info in their own tree charts. So its up to your friend to consider what standards they want and what official records they choose to use to support their research etc. But please stress to your friend that family history research is more than online lookups.
Please appreciate that those exnuptial child/ren if named in proven wills were as entitled to inherit as the issue of a formal marriage, so please consider researching out the actual wills, family correspondence etc.
All we have looked up and posted provides lines of further enquiry. Its up to your friend how they interpret it, how they weave the story to pass on around their relatives.
JM
Well set out to find the Mother of Thomas Hunter Stuart, What an unusual twist....two storries rolled into one the tailor and the Billiard maker and then the name twist.
Only ever seen that once before, rather than write Illegitimate or Bastard Kid they carried the mothers maiden name through the line....anyway never set out to find a skeleton, and Im sure those 8 familytrees on Ancestry will be able to make the necessary corrections, and move on.
One question remains, Who knew about the name Hunter and .......
Many Cheers and Thankyou all
Rick in Tasmania
1/ Thomas Hunter ..attorney
married
????
had issue
2/ Thomas Hunter b. ??...Tailor 78 Regt
married 26.3.1844 Kent
Sarah Roslyn b. 1824 marriage 2 Emma Faulks Wignell 1834-1917 dau of William Roslyn [farmer]
had issue
3/ Sarah Stuart Hunter 1848 West London...Im sure I saw Sarah as a patient
3/ Ann Stuart Hunter b. 1848 West London
married 1873
James Roslin Cameron.........corporal of Life Guards...father was James Cameron
had issue
4/ 3 kids
4/ Jane Cameron
4/ Elizabeth Ann Cameron b 1876
3/ Thomas Hunter b. 1846 West London...................Thomas Hunter Stuart 1844-1930
married 1884
Maria Teresia Tyler b. 1863-1964 Roman Catholic
had issue 7 kids.....from here down Im not worried about as I believe its probably correct
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3/ Thomas Hunter b. 1846 West London...................Thomas Hunter Stuart 1844-1930
married 1884
Maria Teresia Tyler b. 1863-1964 Roman Catholic
had issue 7 kids.....from here down Im not worried about as I believe its probably correct
Have I missed something?
Married 1884?
Nope, its what my late gran called speculations upon speculations leading to advanced Imaginitis.
JM
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Hi Ricky, You have not got it quite correct. Hope this helps. :)
1/ Thomas STUART (Attorney) had issue with female HUNTER
or
1/ Thomas HUNTER (Attorney) had issue with female STUART
2/ Thomas HUNTER aka Thomas STUART/ STEWART born about 1817 possibly New Abbey, Scotland (Soldier & Tailor); d.1895
married 26.3.1844 Kent (1st marriage)
Sarah ROSLYN b. abt 1824 Gamlingay Cambridgeshire
had issue …..
3/ Thomas HUNTER birth Dec.1846 West London (I suggest you get this birth registration) Billiard marker; d.1930
married (or not) about 1884 Maria Teresa TYLER b.1863 RC; d.1944 …… had issue 7 kids.... you know them from here
3/ Ann Stuart HUNTER birth Dec.1848
3/ Sarah Stuart HUNTER birth Dec.1850
(The family appear with the name HUNTER from 1844 to 1850 and then changed to STUART / STEWART from 1851 census).
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Brilliant....Thankyou, It was said in the very beginning if you can crack this, i'll give you a small bag of Artichokes for your garden, the ones with the lovely yellow sunflower....So guys the bar was set pretty high..might be nice with a little butter......
There was some pretty savvy people helping on this "case"..are there anyone savvy on Irish stuff??
I was asked sometime ago when I get a spare minute would I have a look....
Bloke gets a free trip to Tasmania 1826 for pinching a cow in Kerry Ireland, left behind a wife and 3 kids, married here and never went back, a toughy I feel as the wife probably married again to feed the kids....can supply a few more details if anyone interested..
Thankyou and Best Wishes for the day
Rick
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29 Oct 1871 St Bartholomew, Moor Lane
Thomas Stuart, 25, Bach. Clerk, Red Cross St (I think). father Thomas Stuart a Tailor
Georgina Deans 22 Spinster same address, father James a Ships Carpenter
witnesses Andreas Boughgnen??? And Sarah Stuart
I am still curious about this marriage and think it may well be Thomas before he became the billiard marker. Note, he was a clerk in the 1861 census. There are no children that I could find from this marriage, and there is a death for a Georgina Stuart of the approximate age in early 1884 in St Giles, Middlesex.
From there Thomas moved on to Maria Tyler, but never married her.
The death rego for Georgina might provide an answer.
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Brilliant....Thankyou, It was said in the very beginning if you can crack this, i'll give you a small bag of Artichokes for your garden, the ones with the lovely yellow sunflower....So guys the bar was set pretty high..might be nice with a little butter......
Bloke gets a free trip to Tasmania 1826 for pinching a cow in Kerry Ireland, left behind a wife …..
Not so fussed about artichokes, thanks anyway. :D
Best you start a new thread re your Tasmanian convict on the Australian board.
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I got Georgina Dean born 1849 married 1871 and died 1899
Thomas was 25 in 1871 and a bachelor
she was 22 1871
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29 Oct 1871 St Bartholomew, Moor Lane
Thomas Stuart, 25, Bach. Clerk, Red Cross St (I think). father Thomas Stuart a Tailor
Georgina Deans 22 Spinster same address, father James a Ships Carpenter
witnesses Andreas Boughgnen??? And Sarah Stuart
I am still curious about this marriage and think it may well be Thomas before he became the billiard marker. Note, he was a clerk in the 1861 census. There are no children that I could find from this marriage, and there is a death for a Georgina Stuart of the approximate age in early 1884 in St Giles, Middlesex.
From there Thomas moved on to Maria Tyler, but never married her.
The death rego for Georgina might provide an answer.
The witness, Andreas Borggren, was a tailor, and married Ann Stuart, daughter of Thomas the tailor on 25 Dec 1868. (His surname is mistranscribed in almost every record.)
I agree it was Thomas before he became the billiard marker. Tons of articles in the newspaper on Tom Stuart and his billiard events, but sadly, nothing of a personal/family mention.
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Death for Sarah Stuart (nee Roslyn)
STUART, SARAH Age 54
GRO Reference: 1877 J Quarter in CHELSEA
Volume 01A Page 199
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Just finishing off the tree with information gathered ...Thankyou
I could not find any information on Thomas Hunter the Attorney
Thomas Hunter the tailor b. 1817 Scotland died 1895 married Sarah 1844 then married Emma 1881
He had a hard life old Thomas the Tailor and soldier, Two wives, three kids a name change and into a workhouse 6th of March out 9th of March in 23 May out 17 July in 1st October and finally died 29 October, nearly in tears thinking how his life had finished this way.
description of a workhouse
Workhouses were where poor people who had no job or home lived. They earned their keep by doing jobs in the workhouse. Also in the workhouses were orphaned (children without parents) and abandoned children, the physically and mentally sick, the disabled, the elderly and unmarried mothers.
Three kids Thomas Hunter= Thomas Hunter Stuart, Ann Stuart Hunter and Sarah Stuart Hunter.... Having a good think about why the name change, maybe Thomas the Attorney had children out of wedlock to a Stuart Lady, or some other catastrophic event like a murder or hanging for example that they needed to distance themselves from.
I found this ..It was brought to light that the Hunter families had slaves, in 1823 when the Government brought the slaves from their owners some become quite wealthy.
" for Accounts and Papers relating to Abolition of slavery" ...example I saw one "owner" received two thousand three hundred thirty pounds...wow in 1823 you could nearly buy half of Tasmania with that. There were quite a few Hunter families involved in this trade....matter of fact I saw seven families with my own surname involved as well.....
Was this enough to change the surname..Thomas the tailor born 1817..this happened in 1823....
Then the clanger.....
A Dr Joseph Stuart Hunter was an owner in Bermuda on their sugar plantation with a Jane Campbell ..maybe this was enough..
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Just finishing off the tree with information gathered ...Thankyou
I could not find any information on Thomas Hunter the Attorney
Thomas Hunter the tailor b. 1817 Scotland died 1895 married Sarah 1844 then married Emma 1881
He had a hard life old Thomas the Tailor and soldier, Two wives, three kids a name change and into a workhouse 6th of March out 9th of March in 23 May out 17 July in 1st October and finally died 29 October, nearly in tears thinking how his life had finished this way.
description of a workhouse
Workhouses were where poor people who had no job or home lived. They earned their keep by doing jobs in the workhouse. Also in the workhouses were orphaned (children without parents) and abandoned children, the physically and mentally sick, the disabled, the elderly and unmarried mothers.
Three kids Thomas Hunter= Thomas Hunter Stuart, Ann Stuart Hunter and Sarah Stuart Hunter.... Having a good think about why the name change, maybe Thomas the Attorney had children out of wedlock to a Stuart Lady, or some other catastrophic event like a murder or hanging for example that they needed to distance themselves from.
I found this ..It was brought to light that the Hunter families had slaves, in 1823 when the Government brought the slaves from their owners some become quite wealthy.
" for Accounts and Papers relating to Abolition of slavery" ...example I saw one "owner" received two thousand three hundred thirty pounds...wow in 1823 you could nearly buy half of Tasmania with that. There were quite a few Hunter families involved in this trade....matter of fact I saw seven families with my own surname involved as well.....
Was this enough to change the surname..Thomas the tailor born 1817..this happened in 1823....
Then the clanger.....
A Dr Joseph Stuart Hunter was an owner in Bermuda on their sugar plantation with a Jane Campbell ..maybe this was enough..
Ricky, I do so hope that your friend appreciates the differences between speculation and actual research with supporting official documentation. I understand there is an Indie Tassie Author Book Fair in a few weeks time in Hobart, Tasmania.
JM
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https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/shadforth-thomas-2649
You may find that Thomas SHADFORTH was the brother in law of a chap named Joseph Stewart HUNTER.
You may have omitted the surname for Jane Campbell who married a chap named Joseph Stewart HUNTER. I think you may find she was Jane Campbell HINSON. I think you may find that Jane’s sister, Frances, married Thomas SHADFORTH of the 57th Regiment.
ADD https://monumentaustralia.org.au/themes/landscape/settlement/display/21382-pioneers-monument-shadforth-monument
JM
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Thanks, but the slave thing is the least of my worries.....things happen for a reason...name changes back then mostly came from poor spelling skills or something naughty had happened,,,which surprises me why I cant even get a sniff of the Thomas Hunter attorney who had a son born abt 1817 at New Abby Dumfries+ Galloway Scotland...he most likely is the answer.....
it was posted and I think its right on the money...
Thomas Stuart the attorney had issue with female Hunter
or
Thomas Hunter the attorney had issue with a female Stuart
I couldnt even find a newspaper article
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Thanks, but the slave thing is the least of my worries.....things happen for a reason...name changes back then mostly came from poor spelling skills or something naughty had happened,,,which surprises me why I cant even get a sniff of the Thomas Hunter attorney who had a son born abt 1817 at New Abby Dumfries+ Galloway Scotland...he most likely is the answer.....
it was posted and I think its right on the money...
Thomas Stuart the attorney had issue with female Hunter
or
Thomas Hunter the attorney had issue with a female Stuart
I couldnt even find a newspaper article
There is a Scottish Board, and it has sub-boards. If you ask the question there, please be sure to include a live link to this thread, so that the regulars on those boards don't duplicate the info already posted.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/scotland/#theposts Scotland - General
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/dumfriesshire/ Scotland - Dumfriesshire
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/kirkcudbrightshire/ Scotland - Kirkcudbrightshire
JM
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Thanks JM
Thanks for the links
I dont know how to do that so Ill have to start from scratch and just mention ive been on Thomas Hunter Stuart+ Mary Teresa Tyler board
Thanks again Rick....frost has gone what a beautiful day
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https://www.rootschat.com/help/help_index.php
Here is the live link to this thread - this is something that you can 'copy and paste'
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=853526.0
JM
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I cant even get a sniff of the Thomas Hunter attorney who had a son born abt 1817 at New Abby Dumfries+ Galloway Scotland...he most likely is the answer.....
Thomas Stuart the attorney had issue with female Hunter
or
Thomas Hunter the attorney had issue with a female Stuart
I couldnt even find a newspaper article
You will definitely NOT find what is most likely an illegitimate birth reported in the newspaper.
BMD Registration in Scotland started in 1855, and church baptismal records before that time have numerous gaps. Many children were not baptized; many who were baptized were not recorded; and many records have been lost. As well, it is quite likely that an illegitimate child was not baptized. In addition, you have the added challenge of researching a period before census records.
Scotlands People is where you need to look for Scottish records, but don’t be disappointed or surprised if you find nothing. https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Mention of illegitimate births sometimes appear in Kirk Sessions (also found on Scotlands People). I have already looked in the New Abbey Kirk Sessions around 1817-18, but found nothing. I would also recommend having a look in the sessions of nearby parishes (Troqueer, Lochrutton and Dumfries).
Can I suggest it may be useful to find the military records of Thomas Hunter / Stuart. These could give you more information about his birth. I did spend some time trying to find his military records under either name, but I found nothing. The closest I could find was:
THOMAS STEWART
Born EDINBURGH, Midlothian
Served in 79th Foot Regiment
Discharged aged 23
Date: 1837-1843
Reference: WO 97/897/56
As we have not sighted the original of that 1844 marriage record (Hunter – Roslyn) we have no way of knowing if there is a transcription error regarding the regiment number.
A further important step would be to obtain the following birth certificate in case it gives you more information about the father than you already have.
HUNTER, THOMAS Mother: ROSLYN
GRO Reference: 1846 D Quarter in THE WEST LONDON UNION
Volume 02 Page 248
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Can I suggest it may be useful to find the military records of Thomas Hunter / Stuart. These could give you more information about his birth. I did spend some time trying to find his military records under either name, but I found nothing. The closest I could find was:
THOMAS STEWART
Born EDINBURGH, Midlothian
Served in 79th Foot Regiment
Discharged aged 23
Date: 1837-1843
Reference: WO 97/897/56
As we have not sighted the original of that 1844 marriage record (Hunter – Roslyn) we have no way of knowing if there is a transcription error regarding the regiment number.
The marriage I think has been sighted, but here it is.
As it is on CityArk, which is a free site, I hope it is OK to post it here.
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I think that is the 78th Regiment.
JM
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Thanks Mckha489. I could not find the original.
I think it does say 78th. I wonder if that is correct?
By any chance did you find a matching military record?
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I scrolled through 'Discovery' options at TNA online, as you can still download digitised records at no cost, if you sign in .... I searched 'Thomas Hunter' and in the 1780 - 1920 era. Only looked for online downloadables.
I have no spare moments left today, sorry, but I have found some items to download for one of my ancient rellies. :D :D :D
JM
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ (banner on their page reads : While there is limited access to our Kew site, signed-in users can download digital records for free. Read about our fair use policy and why we are doing this. ;D ;D ;D ;D )
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From the marriage record we see Thomas residence as Gillingham, Kent.
Although this is not unexpected as it is where the barracks were situated, there is
Here is an interesting Stuart family in Gillingham
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQK2-F4B
Head of house has occupation “Army”, born Scotland
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By any chance did you find a matching military record?
Not so far
But I think the 78th may have been in India, (Harts Army Lists) although they may have had a depot group that remained in England.
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earlier I got 78th Highlanders Regt on foot [or the Ross Shine Buffs
Thomas Stuart service no 2849 1857
1856-60 were in China 1857-58 India 1878 Afgan war ..places this Regt has been
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earlier I got 78th Highlanders Regt on foot [or the Ross Shine Buffs
Thomas Stuart service no 2849 1857
1856-60 were in China 1857-58 India 1878 Afgan war ..places this Regt has been
Service no. 2849
What document does that come from ... what source ?
JM
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https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/
enter Thomas Stuart click then
select Victorian conflicts on page one of 3
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In 1851 census Thomas (now STEWART) is the Tailor at 21 Fleet Street
the record for Thomas Stuart no 2849, in the British Army Worldwide Index for 1851, for the 78th Highland Regiment of Foot is for the period 01/01/1851-01/04/1851
and they are in Aden
There is no indication (it’s a transcript) of his age, nor in fact where he was born.
It seems to me unlikely it is the same man, Especially as the Fleet Street one has children born very close together in the immediately preceding period.
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Also - Shouldn't his regimental record be under Hunter. I thought, happy to be proven wrong, that army marriages had to be approved, and so it would be under the name he was known by in the regiment.
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Neale..
when I said newspapers you replied....You will definitely NOT find what is most likely an illegitimate birth reported in the newspaper
I actually was meaning advertising for his legal practice in a newspaper..for example Thomas Hunter Solicitor,and Lawyer plus we have 20 years experience conveyancing etc done here...then you grab the age of the advert minus 20 years being in business then minus another 20 years growing up and learning the trade....then you have a rough idea of his age...cos at the moment we have no idea except if his son was born 1817 there is a fair chance that Thomas the Attorney was more than 20 years old when born..therefore back before 1797
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My Mistake yes it should have been Hunter...here we go same site...Thomas the tailor was born abt 1817
Thomas Hunter 1051 Private 1841 78th Regiment Of Foot
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A reminder - this was posted some days ago.
A possible 1841 Scotland census to explore
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a151dccf4040b9d6e2a2029/thomas-stewart-1841-midlothian-st-cuthbert-s-1766-?locale=en
These 2 documents under Wills and testaments (Scotlands People) may be related to the same man, and are probably worth further investigation by your friend.
Stewart Thomas 18/8/1848
Solicitor at Law in Edinburgh, residing in Preston Street
Edinburgh Sheriff Court Wills SC70/4/5
Stewart Thomas 18/8/1848
Solicitor at Law in Edinburgh Inventory
Edinburgh Sheriff Court Inventories SC70/1/68
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A Thomas Hunter - private in 78th Regiment - born Scotland - is in Barracks at Blackburn, Lancashire on 1841 census (remember ages rounded down in this census).
Annette
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Nice one annette,
Ive quoted that and mine together in two new Scottish boards both Dumfries and Scottish General
A Thomas Hunter - private in 78th Regiment - born Scotland - is in Barracks at Blackburn, Lancashire on 1841 census
or
Thomas Hunter 1051 Private 1841 78th Regiment Of Foot
How does this work. are you guys able to follow on the other boards
Had a phone call from the owner of this story/mystery/Family last night, and I quote...I am absolutely delighted, you must have some very clever people working on this research, as my Grandfather went there [wonder were there was] spent a lot of time and money with paid researchers and came back to Tasmania empty handed
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Just came through from the Scottish board....to my surprise!!!
New Abbey is a parish in Kirkcudbrightshire (now part of Dumfries and Galloway).
Looking at the indexes on Scotlandspeople, there is no record of a Thomas Hunter marrying in the whole of Kirkcudbrightshire between 1780 and 1825. There is no record of any Thomas Hunter being baptised in the whole county between 1800 and 1825. There is no record of a Thomas Hunter having any children of any name baptised in the whole of the county between 1800 and 1825.
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You were already given that information
(NOTE: New Abbey is in Kirkcudbrightshire, not Dumfriesshire)
I could not find a OPR for any birth around that time in New Abbey.
Please don’t copy and paste from the other boards. We are all able to read those.
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You were already given that information
(NOTE: New Abbey is in Kirkcudbrightshire, not Dumfriesshire)
I could not find a OPR for any birth around that time in New Abbey.
Please don’t copy and paste from the other boards. We are all able to read those.
I had posted the links to three boards, not two. I had anticipated Ricky would select one of those three to start a new thread, however it seems there's two new threads, neither of them on the Kirkcudbrightshire board.
Also, I strongly support Neales comments about copy paste. In general terms it is best to avoid copy pasting as it can involve infringing copyright.
JM
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https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/
enter Thomas Stuart click then
select Victorian conflicts on page one of 3
If you use RChat's own search option, you may be surprised at the threads commenting on and discussing forces war records.
JM
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Nice one annette,
Ive quoted that and mine together in two new Scottish boards both Dumfries and Scottish General
A Thomas Hunter - private in 78th Regiment - born Scotland - is in Barracks at Blackburn, Lancashire on 1841 census
or
Thomas Hunter 1051 Private 1841 78th Regiment Of Foot
How does this work. are you guys able to follow on the other boards
It helps and saves time if you provide links to your related threads.