RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Suffolk => England => Suffolk Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Lesleyann on Thursday 07 October 21 13:12 BST (UK)
-
I've failed to find a birth record for Harry Jolly who was born in 1885 in Bungay, Suffolk. I have his marriage certificate to Alice Flatt in 1907 where it states his father is John Jolly, a general labourer. I cannot find him on the 1891 or 1901 censuses but I have him in 1911 with wife, Alice and son Harry Morris Jolly. I also have him on the 1939 register. Harry's granddaughter is sure Harry had no siblings. He was in the Hussars from 1914 until 1920 and died in 1940. I'd be grateful for any help here as I'm about to give Harry up as a lost cause!
Lesleyann
-
Is this him?
Henry James Jolly Dec qtr 1886 Hartismere RD
Volume: 4a p738
-
No, it's not him. He was plain Harry with no other names. His granddaughter is sure of this and, if you follow the census entries for Henry James, it is a different family altogether. Thanks for trying.
Lesleyann
-
Deleted - sorry wrong post
-
I have his marriage certificate to Alice Flatt in 1907 where it states his father is John Jolly, a general labourer.
What is his address on the 1907 marriage cert? Also, who are the witnesses? Sometimes the address and/or witness name(s) can provide clues as to a mystery person's origin.
-
Whilst not answering your original post do you know about his son Stanley
JOLLY, STANLEY THOMAS mmn FLATT
GRO Reference: 1912 S Quarter in DEPWADE Volume 04B Page 390
Stanley married 9.11.1935 Wynmondham. His father recorded as just Harry Jolly-occ Team/Tram Man
Image on Ancestry
John
-
Given that the elder Jolly son (who appears with parents in the 1911 census) was apparently born in Aldershot, I'm wondering if Harry was in the army prior to WW1. After all, his occupation on the census was "Groom To Officer (Soldier Servant)". On the census page, Harry (?) originally wrote "Henry" then crossed it out.
Interestingly, there was a William Jolly (also from Bungay) who enlisted with the 4th Hussars in 1890.
His service record is on Fold3. Looks like he had been in a previous regiment, and enlisted with the Hussars in Dublin. I wonder if he was related to Harry.
-
Lesleyann,
In 1911 Harry is in Houndslow. The below record shows a Henry Jolly also in Houndslow.
London, England, Overseer Returns, 1863-1894 for Henry Jolly
With all due respect I think ALL those that have posted have found the right man Henry James Jolly who was born in 1886. I know the 1939 register records 1885 but that register is often out by 1 year. Also I note that the John Jolly his father was also a Horse "Teamsman" on the 1881 census.
John
-
With all due respect I think ALL those that have posted have found the right man Henry James Jolly who was born in 1886.
Ancestry has a family tree which also indicates that the OP's Harry is also Henry James Jolly (of Burgate, Suffolk). The tree also has photos of Harry/Henry and his wife Alice.
-
Lesleyann,
In 1911 Harry is in Houndslow. The below record shows a Henry Jolly also in Houndslow.
London, England, Overseer Returns, 1863-1894 for Henry Jolly
John
The place is Hounslow, Middlesex and there was a sizeable Army presence in the town at that time.
-
Ancestry has a family tree which also indicates that the OP's Harry is also Henry James Jolly (of Burgate, Suffolk).
Harry James Jolly, Horseman, father John Jolly, Labourer, married Florence Lilian Yarham, 22 August 1907, Gissing, Norfolk.
1911 census free index has them in Gissing
Harry Jolly, 25, Horseman on Farm, born Burgate, Suffolk.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X751-KJJ
Ancestry trees can sometimes be wrong!
-
Harry and Alice Jolly in Middlesex in 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWW5-X44
Alice Flatt, 13, born Chediston, Suffolk, is in Bungay in 1901
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSVX-FY9
Does 1911 say Alice was born in Corby in Northamptonshire?
Are those places of birth the wrong way round? :-\
1901 has a Henry Jolly, 14, born Northants Apethorpe, a servant in Corby
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9YX-F6T
-
Don't know of it is relevant, a militia record for Harry Jolley born 1886 Northants
Northamptonshire Regiment, no. 7437
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KHB9-GV6
-
Possibly
JOLLY, HARRY PRIDMORE
Mother's Maiden Surname: PRIDMORE
GRO Reference: 1887 D Quarter in OUNDLE Volume 03B Page 218
1891, Harry P Jolly, age 3 in Southwick
piece 1224 folio 75 page 7
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:4LZB-5W2
Parents John Thomas and Mary Jane
Father Ag Lab.
-
Thanks to all of you for your help. We have followed up the witnesses and that told us nothing further. Harry was living at Norwich Barracks at the time of his marriage. I knew Stanley Jolly, he was my cousin's father. Harry may have been in the Northamptonshire regiment before joining the Hussars. I found a record saying as much but I'm blowed if I can find it now. I didn't think it was relevant so didn't copy it. A lesson to be learned there! Interesting about William Jolly and the Hussars. The photos on Ancestry belong to my cousin. She had a tree on there for a while and other people took the photos to add to their tree. I wondered if anyone could identify the regiment from the uniform Harry is wearing but I don't think the photo is clear enough for that. I might have to bite the bullet and order the birth cert for Henry James. I'm going to look at Henry James's siblings. Alice always said Harry was an only child and certainly no uncles or aunts were ever spoken of but that does not necessarily mean there weren't any. A lot of food for thought here, thank you.
Lesleyann
-
Don't understand.
You say Henry James from Burgate is eliminated, and he is.
He is even on the 1939 Register with his wife, and son Clement (reg June 1918, Depwade, mother Yarham)
Now you are going to order his birth cert.
Please tell us where Alice was born, and why Corby, Northants is written on the 1911 census, if it is not relevant to either Harry or Alice.
The parents of Harry Jolly from Northants born 1887 are also to be found in Corby in 1901, and the widowed John Thomas (Jolley) is still there in 1911.
-
I have Alice's birth certificate which gives her birth place as Chediston, Suffolk, so the Corby reference on the 1911 has always been a puzzle. At the time of her marriage in 1907 she was a domestic servant in Lowestoft. There is a record of a marriage between John Jolly and Luannah Smith in 1884 which someone on Ancestry is convinced are Harry's parents. The 1911 census looks as if someone has written it in pencil and gone over it in pen. I'm wondering why Henry was inserted twice on the page if the name had no relevance. I'm going to look at the possible Corby connection again and try to find the reference to Harry and the Northamptonshire regiment.
Lesleyann
-
Firstly my apologies for last post. I well know from experience that trees on Anc* are notorious for being incorrect and should have followed the route jonw65 did. 1911 census and 1939 war register confirms 2 different men.
quote author=jonw65 link=topic=853946.msg7220353#msg7220353 date=1633678604]
Possibly
JOLLY, HARRY PRIDMORE
Mother's Maiden Surname: PRIDMORE
GRO Reference: 1887 D Quarter in OUNDLE Volume 03B Page 218
1891, Harry P Jolly, age 3 in Southwick
piece 1224 folio 75 page 7
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:4LZB-5W2
Parents John Thomas and Mary Jane
Father Ag Lab.
[/quote]
jonw65 may well be on to something!
Looking at the military record for Harry JOLLEY does name his next of kin as John & Mary(parents) George (brother) & Louisa (sister) all of Corby.
Also recorded is that Harry attested 6.12.1905 and joined 7th HUSSARS 18.1.1906
John
-
I looked at the 1911 form and wondered if someone else had completed it for Alice (or Harry) to write over, and got some of the information mixed up. Do you know if Alice/Harry could read and write? I agree with you and jonw65 that 'Henry' and 'Corby' can't have come from thin air. The other question for me was their ages on the form (23 and 22), which would make them born late 1880s. What does Alice's birth certificate say, and what does their marriage certificate say about their ages when they got married?
It could also be useful to know if Harry himself claimed the link with Bungay, or whether it's only based on the census information. Does their granddaughter know?
-
Wow! This is further than I've got in the last three years. I've looked at the censuses and, if this is our Harry, it means he had at least nine siblings - so much for him being an only child. I haven't been able to find his military record but I've been looking for Jolly, not Jolley and he seems to have dropped the Pridmore part of his name. It looks as thought the Hussar dates of 1914-1920 were also incorrect. I'm very grateful to you all for taking so much time with this. I'm now going to explore all this information and throw all the family's pre-conceived ideas out of the window until I can verify them!
Lesleyann
-
The only birth certificate I would be getting is that of Harry Pridmore Jolly Dec.1887 Oundle as he is looking more and more likely as 'your' man.
Harry and Alice don't seem too hot on ages - bc.1888 and bc1889 respectively in 1911 but in 1939 years given as 1885 and 1886!!!!
Whilst some often got their birth years wrong their 'birthdays' are usually correct, hence the Harry above looking extremely likely to me.
Since the 1911 census form was filled out by the householder themselves 'Corby' has to figure in somewhere and, as has been suggested, looks like birthplaces written long way round. Corby where Harry had been living before (although not actually where he was born) and Bungay where Alice had been living (although she not actually born there either).
Annette
-
Googling 7th Hussars finds them stationed in Norwich from 1905 on their return from the Boer War, so I think this is your man.
-
Alice's birth cert says 1889 and they are both 21 on the marriage cert. The Bungay birthplace for Harry comes from the 1911 census and family hearsay. I've just contacted my cousin with this information.
Lesleyann
-
There were marriage announcements for Harry and Alice but unfortunately they don't have any new details.
Eastern Evening News
17 Jul 1907
page 2
Marriage
Jolly-Flatt
July 13, Harry Jolly to Alice Flatt, both of Norwich
Norfolk Chronicle
20 Jul 1907
page 1
Marriage
Jolly-Flatt
July 13th, Harry Jolly to Alice Flatt, both of Norwich
Assuming Harry is son of John Thomas Jolly and Mary Jane Pridmore, then his paternal grandparents would be Samuel Jolly and Ann baker. There's a lovely newspaper item for Ann.
Peterborough Standard
12 Sep 1908
page 8, column 5
Woodnewton
Active At Eighty-Eight
Hale and hearty at 88 is Mrs Ann Jolly, of Woodnewton, to whom a representative of this journal was introduced a day or two ago. Mrs Jolly, who resides with her blind daughter, has been a widow for 38 years. "I do the washing for myself and daughter," said Mrs Jolly; "and," she added proudly, "I have been digging potatoes this morning!" The lady, who is a native of Washingley, regularly attends Church and gets about well with a stick. Last year her sister - Mrs Elizabeth Davis, of Benefield - died, in her 91st year. Mrs Jolly has five children alive, her eldest son, Mr John Thos. Jolly, of Corby, being in his 59th year.
The unnamed daughter would be Sophia, who died in 1935. There's a newspaper item about her death and funeral, but unfortunately no mention of Harry amongst the mourners.
Peterborough Standard
26 Jul 1935
page 24
Deaths
Jolly
At Woodnewton, Jul 18, Sophia Jolly, 72
Peterborough Standard
26 Jul 1935
page 23
Woodnewton
Funeral of Miss Jolly
- The funeral took place at St Mary's Church on Monday,
- of a much respected inhabitant in the person of
- Miss Sophia Jolly
- Her death occurred at Peterborough Hospital
- on Thursday after a short illness,
- at the age of 72 years
- Miss Jolly, who was of a quiet and kindly disposition,
- will be greatly missed by her many friends
[continues, with list of mourners, floral tributes and description of coffin]
-
That is lovely. Thank you so much for that. I've been looking for the early death of one of the children of John and Mary Jane. The 1911 census says they had ten children and one has died. I've found the ten children and I wondered if the one who died young was Sophia but obviously not reading that. I've spent nearly all day on this - as have many of you - and what a lot you've discovered!
Lesleyann
-
I think it was Agnes (twin of Florence?) that had died.
1878 Q3 Birth - Agnes Annie Jolly (mmn: Pridmore); Oundle; 03B; 227
1878 Q3 Death - Agnes Annie Jolly; age 0 (born c1878); Oundle; 03B; 137
The Sophia who died in 1935 was (likely) the daughter of Samuel and Ann, so Harry's aunt.