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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: Auld Boab on Sunday 13 February 22 23:21 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone give me details of a William Thomson, Farmer, Broadleys farm Kennoway, Fife. Circa 1880 to1890.
I'm told Broadleys was on Balbirnie Estate at that time, and located just North of Kennoway, but i can't find it on the OS maps.
I wonder if he had a son named Robert.
Any help welcomed.
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Hello and welcome to the forum
I can see the Broad Leys farm on the 1891 census and there is a family of Thomson living there.
Thomas Thomson 70 farmer born Kennoway
Elizabeth 66 wife born Menymal Fife
William 35 farm servant son born Kennoway
Alexander 30 son farm servant K'y
Catherina 28 domestic servant daughter born Kennoway
Thomas son 25 domestic servant K'y
John 23 domestic servant born Kennoway
Grandson Robert 5 scholar born Kennoway
1881 already at the farm
Thomas 60,Elizabeth 56,William 25,Thomas 15,John 13.
1871 Broadleys Farm -Thomas 50 41 acres employing 3 acres,Elizabeth 46,William 15,James 13,George 10,Alexander 11,Catherine 8,Thomas 5,John 3.
1861 still at farm
Thomas 40 40 acres and employing 1 boy
Elizabeth 36
William 5
James 3
George 2
Alexander 5 mths
Jean Thomason mother 73 born Kennoway
Robert Duff retired farmer 59 born Abernathy Perth.
1851 at the farm
Jean 63 farmer 30 acres born Kenoway
Thomas son 30 ag lab
Alexander Keddie servant 16 born Kettle
It looks like William was baptised at Kennoway s of Thomas Thomson and Elizabeth nee White 11.1.1856
By 1901 Thomas his father had died (death 26.1.1892 and Will 1894) and they are at Heathewinch Farm House Knnoway
Elizabeth 76 born Morniemal Fife
William 45 farmer K
Catherine 38
Thomas 35
Robert 15
They are in the household of Andrew Mill 54 railway signalman and his wife Jessie on the entry I spotted but they seem to be neighbours rather than living in same house.
Will see what else I can find
This is it mentioned on the OS 1855
https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/fife-and-kinross-shire-os-name-books-1853-1855/fife-and-kinross-shire-volume-96/9
Ciderdrinker
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So it should be about 1 3/4 miles NW by N from here:
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=16.345417818717788&lat=56.21149&lon=-3.01401&layers=168&right=ESRIWorld
(I had a very quick look but couldn’t spot it - but may have missed it)
Added:
Found it. :)
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=17.48947508018203&lat=56.23240&lon=-3.04080&layers=168&right=ESRIWorld
Added: I found Balbirnie related places far west of Kennoway, just by Markinch, but unsure if that is the “Balbirnie estate” you mention - seems to be in the wrong direction for Broadley’s to be part of it. :-\
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Photograph https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/6389291
According to 1895 Valuation Roll the proprietor of Broadleys was Edward Balfour and the tenant was William Thomson.
Edward Balfour is also listed as proprietor of 181 other properties in Fife, in the parishes of Falkland, Kettle, Kennoway, Leslie, and Markinch, including 23 properties at Balbirnie in the parish of Markinch.
This is Edward Balfour, 8th of Balbirnie. See https://www.geni.com/people/Edward-Balfour-8th-of-Balbirnie/6000000054848754887 and https://landedfamilies.blogspot.com/2018/09/345-balfour-of-balbirnie.html
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I don't know how to thank you guys enough for that info. Now 99% sure this is the right family because the Grandson Robert, i think was my granpaw. Wonder who was his father out of all the sons & daughter??
The reason i could not find the farm was that there was a different road into Whallyden farm, (from that of today) so i didn't look far enough North. The maps i saw show a "ruin" just in from Toddy Bridge & i thought that this had been Broadleys.
There is also mention of a "Heatherwinch farm Kennoyway. I think this is wrong as my Grandfather lived at Heatherinch farm Ladybank.
Out of all the sons Tom Thomson had, these names are common with names of other farmers in the Ladybank area.
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Oh Dear, Oh Dear, What is my real name?? ie who was my great Grandfather?
Just been given my Grandad's death certificate. It states that a Catherine Thomson was his mother but no mention of the Daddy!!!!!!
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Oh Dear, Oh Dear, What is my real name?? ie who was my great Grandfather?
Just been given my Grandad's death certificate. It states that a Catherine Thomson was his mother but no mention of the Daddy!!!!!!
To confirm if your grandad was illegitimate, it might be an idea to try to find his birth certificate. Informants on death certificates don’t always know all details of the deceased.
Ciderdrinker has given you the family in the censuses which shows Catherine and young Robert.
The birth certificate might give more clues.
Added: I just looked on Scotlands People and there is a birth for a Robert Thomson in 1885 in Kennoway, which might be worth spending a couple of credits on. Unsure what it may or may not tell you. Someone with more knowledge of Scottish records might give you some pointers on where to go from here.
When it comes to illegitimacy brick walls I usually suggest taking a DNA test in case you can deduce anything from your matches as to biological father.
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Thomas THOMSON and Elizabeth WHITE married 23 Dec 1854, Kennoway
Their daughter Catherine THOMSON born 17 July 1862 Kennoway
- In 1881 census, she is working as General Servant at Bonnybank, Fife, living with Catherine WHYTE age 81 (possibly her grandmother)
- By 1891 Catherine is home on the family farm with 5 year old Robert.
- It does seem likely that while she was in service, Catherine had an illegitimate son, Robert.
Here is the birth record suggested by Ruskie. It may not give you a father’s name, but it will verify other facts for you.
THOMSON ROBERT M 1885 434/ 30 Kennoway
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Catherine THOMSON born 17 July 1862 Kennoway
- In 1881 census, she is working as General Servant at Bonnybank, Fife, living with Catherine WHYTE age 81 (possibly her grandmother)
- By 1891 Catherine is home on the family farm with 5 year old Robert.
- It does seem likely that while she was in service, Catherine had an illegitimate son, Robert.
Bonnybank is less than a mile from the family home at Kennoway, Catherine is a Visitor on the 1881 census, suggesting she was visiting her g/mother on census night?
I decided to have a look at the BC for Robert but there's no RCE i.e. no father named & I had a look at https://www.scottishindexes.com/ but it appears Catherine didn't pursue a claim against the father.
I think Ruskie's idea of a DNA test could be very useful.
If you send me a PM with your email address I will forward the copy of Robert's BC.
Annie
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Have you seen Robert's marriage certificate?
There is an outside chance that it might name his reputed father.
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I am most grateful to you all for your work in finding my roots. THANK YOU.
However, i feel that i should learn how you did this research in order that, in future, i can do my own work. I tried to search parish records and cencus, but obviously i went the wrong way about it.
Can you please give me some insight into your methods.
Kindest regards,
Auld Boab
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Your 1st step is to register (free) with www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk where you'll be able to locate the certs. you need for a small fee via credits.
Do you know the name of Robert's wife so we can locate the entry for you to look up & download?
Annie
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Hi Annie. A couple of nights ago i spoke to a member of the extended Thomson clan. He has come up with Gran & Grandad's wedding certificate. They were married in the manse at Kennoway.
As far as my Great Grandad is concerned, I think the name "Robert" may, just may hold a clue since this forename was never previously used within the family.
In these days small farms could not justify keeping a stallion or a bull. Men called "travelers" went round the farms offering these services. I have on more than one occasion, heard that the traveler left more than the animals he drove !!!!! Similarly, men would visit these farms providing threshing machines pulled by steam traction engines.
The other thought was that since Catherine was in service, perhaps someone in that household was the culprit.
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I thought the same about the name “Robert”, though he could just as easily be named after a friend. Eg in the 1861 census there is a Robert Duff staying with the family.
Sometimes there are clues with the child’s middle name too, but your Robert doesn’t appear to have one.
A dna test would be worth considering. All of the companies have regular sales so you could wait for one of those to save yourself a couple of £s. :)
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I too had noticed the name Robert didn't appear to be a traditional family name & would bet that's a clue.
Ruskie, is it possible you could transcribe the 1861 details for Boab please to give him an idea of ages, places of birth, occs?
I think it's more likely Catherine was simply visiting & stayed over with her g/m that night in 1881 rather than being 'in service'?
Annie
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Ruskie, is it possible you could transcribe the 1861 details for Boab please to give him an idea of ages, places of birth, occs?
Annie
Ciderdrinker has provided that census in his reply #1, but yes, I see that Robert Duff’s address is actually Easter “Lalathan” and he is a sole occupant and retired farmer.
(Neighbour included in with the Thomsons? :-\ )
Thomas’s wife Elisabeth is born “Monimail” Fifeshire.
All others born Kennoway.
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Just a thought.
It's just possible that there might be a clue in the Kennoway Kirk Session records. The National Records of Scotland has the minutes of Kennoway Old Kirk Session 1859-1953, and the register of baptisms 1855-1977.
These are available only in the Historical Search Room in General Register House in Edinburgh, and in one or two local archives and heritage centres (Inverness, Aberdeen, Glasgow, Alloa and Hawick that I am aware of, and probably some others). But you need to check current access arrangements (for example https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//research/historical-search-room/guide-for-users-historical-search-room.pdf) because at the moment there is no access to PC terminals in the Historical Search Room and therefore no access to the digitised versions of the Kirk Sessions which are what you want to see.
However most Kirk Sessions had more or less given up recording cases of fornication/unmarried pregnancies by the 1880s, so even after all that effort you may find nothing.
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Went to visit Broadleys yesterday. Terrible track leading to farm track. When i arrived at the farm track i found two gates over it, and they had a heavy chain and padlock on them.
So, i will have to visit the laird and ask his permission and hopefully get the keys.
The present laird is a Douglas Christie, and it transpires i worked for his Grandfather as an agricultural student many years ago.
Before i worked in FARFAR !!!!!
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i will have to visit the laird and ask his permission and hopefully get the keys.
i worked for his Grandfather many years ago.
Before i worked in FARFAR !!!!!
Well, you may have known some of Forfarian's family!? :-\
Maybe post a wee short piece of info. where you worked in Forfar as Forfarian may know of it & the folks?
It's a small world as they say.
Annie
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Aye Annie. I worked in Farfar in the seventies. Employed by the "Tattie Marketing Board". The work involved visiting farmers and Tattie merchants in the whole of Angus and as far north as part of the old Kincardineshire.
Last night i thought i would try and trace my Great Grandfather, Thomas Thomson, to see where he came from. I registered with Scotlandspeople and looked for a birth certificate. The search came up "O". I then tried to get this info by entering details of his marriage to Elizabeth White and his death in 1892. For some reason the search came back negative.
So, where did i go wrong??
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I mind the Tattie Marketing Board being in Farfar.
I'd left there by the 1970s but my parents and grandmother were still there so I used to visit often enough.
There was a tattie merchant whose car had the registration POT 80.
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Re your searches on Scotland's People if you simply search for Thomson Thomson deaths in Fife in the year 1892 there are 10 results. The most likely result for your Thomas is in Kennoway RD age 71 with a mother's maiden name of Keddie.
Civil registration only started in Scotland in 1855. This means you will not find a birth certificate for him but there may be a record for him in the Church Registers - Old Parish Registers Births and Baptisms. There is a birth in Kennoway dated 10 July 1820 for a Thomas Thomson with parents William Thomson and Jean Geddie.
Equally with the marriage of Thomas Thomson and Elizabeth White you need to look at the Church Records. You are actually unlucky because they appear to have married in 1854, the year prior to civil registration commencing. The likely record is in Kennoway Parish dated 23 Dec 1854.
Hope this helps.
William
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Possible death for Robert's mother, Catherine:
Catherine Thomson, mother's maiden name WHYTE
Died in Cupar in 1923
Age 63
There is no other surname showing on the index. Normally this means that the woman was unmarried. Her age at death should be c. 61.
Monica
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I showed all your excellent replies to my family on Sunday. Both they and i thank you for your generosity.
Both of my family asked the same question as has been in my mind for a while :-
The only name Robert in the picture is Robert Duff, so that begs the question " was the old lad having an affair with young Catherine?? If he provided some form of financial assistance to the young mother that MAY explain why there are no court records of her claiming against the father.
In addition, it seems very strange that Robert Duff is listed as being a retired farmer at 56yrs. In those days farmers usually had to worked until they dropped.
The name Keddie has connections to a farmer at Letham Farm, which is located very near to Broadleys.
Just a thought !!
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The only name Robert in the picture is Robert Duff, so that begs the question " was the old lad having an affair with young Catherine?? If he provided some form of financial assistance to the young mother that MAY explain why there are no court records of her claiming against the father.
In addition, it seems very strange that Robert Duff is listed as being a retired farmer at 56yrs. In those days farmers usually had to worked until they dropped.
The name Keddie has connections to a farmer at Letham Farm, which is located very near to Broadleys.
Personally, if Robert Duff was the father, I wouldn't class it as an affair, more taking advantage of a young girl but we don't know if he was anything other than a neighbour/friend?
See Reply #21 from William for the surname Keddie/Geddie.
Annie
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Met Lady Laird today and she very kindly took me to Broadleys farm ruins. It appears it had an open circle where the horse would walk round to power the mill. We couldn't locate the well though.
Don't know how i can find out when Thomson tenancy of Broadleys began and when it was terminated. The farm was well hidden at the back of a hill---total privacy??
Rather strange feeling standing "Where it all began".
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Hi Boab,
Great to hear you were shown round Broadleys Farm as it's a great feeling to be/see for yourself 'Where it all began' ;)
You know from an earlier post, Thomas Thomson was there on the 1891 census...
By 1895 William Thomson was there (Thomas had died) but he'd been there since 1865 until 1885 (last record prior to his death), there's no listing in the earliest VRs of 1855 for Broadleys.
The VRs were recorded at 10 yr intervals, later they are at 5 yr intervals.
THOMSON THOMAS Tenant Occupier
FARM OF BROADLEYS, KENNOWAY
1865 - VR010100011-
I haven't searched forward for William from 1895...
You can search the index of VRs (Valuation Rolls) on SP (scotlandspeople) site free but the cost of downloading the record is 2 credits.
The record will have plenty of others from the surrounding areas too, makes quite interesting reading especially when you can look at maps & see the different people & areas named...you can be a 'nosey neighbour' for a day ;D
Annie
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Hi Annie. Was going to post my not very good photos on site but i can't see the paper clip emblem !!! I managed to get fairly good video but i find that everything "Digital" is hopeless as i can't see anything clearly especially in a sunny day. Auld age or what ???
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Hi Boab,
To post images, click on reply (below) then 'Attachments and other options' then 'Choose File', you then locate where you've saved it, click on it & Boab's your uncle ;D
It's best you save them in a named folder specific to make it easier to locate them.
Each must have a different name for uploading i.e. adding a numeral is good, 1, 2, 3 etc.
Annie
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WOT--NO SKY DISH?
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WOT--NO SKY DISH?
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Hi again Annie. I have no idea how that map got posted !! Can't get file to open & can't drag photo to post. No response to shortcuts either. Will have to wait until dauchter next visits to get this sorted out.
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Take two weekends hard work to make it habitable!!!!!!
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Hi Boab,
The pics are lovely especially with the weather being nice.
You're very lucky as I've come across remnants of my own ancestral homes which were nothing more than a pile/mound of rubble, no gable ends etc.
In your 1st pic you can even see where the fireplace was.
All you need now is permission to do a 'dig' to find some artefacts ;D
Have you managed to obtain further documents for your family tree going back?
Annie
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Aye Annie. The problem with not being able to post the pics was the file was too large. Dauchter did quite a bit of work to downsize them, as initially she was stuck too. Round the back of the steading my video showed a round flat piece of land and the Lady Laird suggested it could have been an open horse mill, in the absence of any rubble. No roofing materials were found at the site.
Now, i have to ask for more guidance if you please. How do i delete the map and the double "Wot--no sky dish" posts ??
Been in touch with Kennoway Parish Church re records of Thomas Thomson's parents but they have not got back to me as yet.
Happy Easter to all.
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Hi Boab,
Do you really feel a need to delete the post with the map & "WOT--NO SKY DISH?" as the map is useful for others & the absence of a sky dish showed your humour (it made me smile) & how things have evolved to present day ;)
It will show future generations the changes from 1800s - 2000s as television wasn't an option back then & nowadays one can watch 'tv' on a phone (not an option then either).
Annie