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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: DownUnder33 on Friday 18 March 22 11:40 GMT (UK)
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Hi All, im looking for any information on the Orange family in the Newcastle area from the early to mid 1900s. Particularly looking for an Alice Orange, who is my grandmother, but have very scarce information about her.
I have a recently received my fathers birth certificate from the Norfolk Archive team and unfortunately all that is listed is her name, and home residence at the time. Even the father section was not listed, which leads me to believe this was a tryst (though the father is 98% sure to be known). He was born in 1941, so would put her own birth year at approx 1915 +- 10 years.
Any information or directions is greatly appreciated. I am a member with Ancestry and no luck there, as well as the FreeBMD site.
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There is an Alice Orange b July 1911 on 1939 register with husband Alma and 3 children Ronald ,George and redacted
Harmsworth west Yorkshire
Could this be her if your father was born after
Her husband's death or refused to acknowledge the child .
Have you ruled that one out ?
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The maiden name for the mother of the George and Ronald Orange on that 1939 Rehister found by Brigidmac -- is Spencer.
Both boys births registered in Hemsworth, Yorkshire.
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An Alma Orange married an Alice Spencer in Q/E June 1930 Hemsworth Reg Dist.
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If this IS the correct family then the actual marriage of Alma to Alice can be viewed on Ancestry in the West Yorkshire marriages dataset.
Father of Alma was Reuben Beverley Orange - and of Alice Spencer - John Erwan? Spencer. This Alice was 18 as at the marriage date of 22 April 1930.
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There is a baptism - 1 April, 1908 - Handsworth Woodhouse
Alma Orange - parents Reuben Beverley Orange (Miner) and Ann of Woodhouse.
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Unfortunately there is no birth in 1941 - BUT there is one in Q/E March 1942 for someone with the correct surname and the same mother's maiden name. This is going off the original posters message - but I can't name them as they may still be alive.
Again this is in Hemsworth Reg Dist. Yorkshire - not Newcastle.
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Welcome to Rootschat.
Please bear in mind we are not allowed to name or discuss living people in Rootschat.
As your father was born in Norfolk, what is it you have that links the family to Newcastle?
Not knowing if Alice's birth surname was Orange, or if perhaps she had married someone called Orange makes it difficult :-)
Working first on it being her birth surname:
A free Advanced Search of the 1921 register for Alice Orange brings up a possible born 1907, in Ryton Co. Durham (just over the river from Newcastle) and she was living in Newcastle. Hovering over the image icon shows me that there was a Magdalene S and a Susannah in the same household.
Back to the search and I looked for Magdalene S (no surname specified) living in Newcastle and specified another person in the household as Alice Orange
I repeated that for Susannah
and got Magdalene S Moore, born 1872, Newcastle and Susannah Moore, born 1874, Newcastle
Checking on the GRO births register, this girl's birth was registered in Gateshead District in Q4 1907 and the mother's maiden name is down as '-', which indicates she was illegitimate.
This looks likely to be the above Alice in the 1911 census which shows her as the adopted daughter of Magdalen Stokoe Moore
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWM8-RZN
(you need to be signed in to a free account on Family Search to see that transcript)
You should be able to search on Ancestry in the 1939 register in Newcastle (not on Family Search and we aren't allowed to do look ups).
No idea if this was 'your' Alice but IF Orange was her birth name then it should give you some idea of how to go about looking for other 'possibles'
Boo
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Unfortunately there is no birth in 1941 - BUT there is one in Q/E March 1942 for someone with the correct surname and the same mother's maiden name. This is going off the original posters message - but I can't name them as they may still be alive.
Again this is in Hemsworth Reg Dist. Yorkshire - not Newcastle.
Hi Pennines,
I can see a possible birth for a named male in Norfolk in Q4 1941 on FreeBMD that matches with what the OP posted?
(again, can't give a name as the OP's father may still be alive)
Boo
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An Alice M Orange sadly died in Q/E March 1951 in Northumberland South Reg Dist aged only 43. If that is the correct Alice - the son born in late 1941 would only be 9 years old.
What a very sad story if this is the correct Alice.
There is something odd about her entry on the 1939 Register. It refers you to page 15 - which then simply refers you back to page 2! I don't understand that.
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Unfortunately there is no birth in 1941 - BUT there is one in Q/E March 1942 for someone with the correct surname and the same mother's maiden name. This is going off the original posters message - but I can't name them as they may still be alive.
Again this is in Hemsworth Reg Dist. Yorkshire - not Newcastle.
The birth here could still be in 1941, but not registered till the beginning of 1942.
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Yes Manukarik it could - but we think that is the wrong family now.
We are onto the one found by Tickettyboo - as the original poster mentioned her father's birth cert was obtained from Norfolk - and the family originated from the Newcastle area.
DownUnder33
The 'adopted' daughter found in 1911, Alice Maud Orange b 1907 - hasn't had her surname changed, so it may NOT have been an official adoption. Her birth certificate could be obtained from the General Register Office and you will find her mother's name, as Alice herself seems to have been illegitimate. (If you think this is your correct grandmother.)
If you order from the General Register Office you can order a PDF copy for £7 (as opposed to £11 for a paper copy plus postage if you ARE 'down under'. (I notice you said you had obtained your father's certificate from Norfolk Archives).
https://www.gov.uk/general-register-office
If you haven't ordered from the General Register Office before you will need to register. The birth you are ordering is;
Alice Orange
1907
Q/E Dec
Gateshead Registration District
Volume 10a
Page 1036
(Only if you think this is the correct Alice though.)
I do wonder why a single lady would adopt a child and wonder if she was connected to the family in some way, which may be revealed by researching Alice's family backwards. The name 'Maud' seems to have been added as a middle name, as she wasn't registered with it.
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Thankyou all for the replies. I did already look at the adopted Alice and was wondering if it could be her, might go into it further now.
In regards to how I know Alice is from Newcastle, I obtained my fathers birth certificate from the Norfolk Registrar and her residence in Newcastle was listed. Unfortunately the road no longer seems to exist (Warden Street, off Westmorland Road). I was hoping for any census records that might have this listed, but no luck finding any, at least online anyway. And the Newcastle Archives want 30 pound per hour to search :o
Her occupation was listed as a cook, and the birthplace I think is the residence of the Marsham family in Norfolk (My fathers last name). So Im guessing she was employed there as a live in cook, considering there is such a distance between her home county and there
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Warden Street is mentioned in an old thread!
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=328691.0
Look at reply #2.
Looks as though the streets mentioned were built over by Newcastle College and Cruddas Park.
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Warden St, as you say is long gone, but it ran between Westmoreland Road and Bell Terrace.
This shows where it was side by side with a modern day map
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=17.005470723905592&lat=54.96638&lon=-1.63665&layers=168&right=osm
If you have access to Ancestry they have Newcastle Electoral registers, nearest available for the time frame is 1939 and then 1945 (no registers during the war years)
Just leave the name fields blank and put Warden St into the keyword box, and 1939 in the year.
Boo
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Given an address in Newcastle, I had a firkle in the records and did find a tentative link for an Alice Orange to Warden St - but not till 1945.
So I have had a go at building what I believe is a timeline for 'this' Alice Orange (nee Lynam)
1906 GRO Births
Q3 1906 Newcastle upon Tyne, Alice Lynham MMN Hay
1911 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWMW-K5H
1921 electoral register
Stephen & Margaret Lynham (Alice's parents) are listed at Raiway St., Newcastle
1921 census
A free advanced search of the 1921 census for surname Lynam, living in Newcastle upon Tyne, address Railway St brings up likely results that match with the 1911 census, including an Alice, born 1906. Newcastle
1922 GRO Marriages
Q3 1922 Newcastle upon Tyne, Alice LYNAM and John H Orange
1922-1939
I can see 6 births with the surname/mmn combination of Orange/Lynam in the GRO index. One of which, Margaret, was born and died too soon, born Q2 1925, Newcastle , died same year /quarter and district.
1939 Newcastle Evening Chronicle 05 Jul 1939, page 3 col 7
I, JOHN HENRY ORANGE, OF 12 DUKE STREET, Newcastle on Tyne, hereby declare that I will not be responsible for any debt or debts incurred by my wife, Alice Orange, on or after, this date 5th July 1939
(Signed) J. H. ORANGE
1939 Register, 29 September, this couple are easily found in 1939 in Newcastle (but not at the address in the newspaper notice)
NB the register was compiled after that newspaper notice, but maybe she hadn't actually left him yet.
1942 25 Feb Newcastle Journal, page 4, col 7
Newcastle A.T.S. Woman's Bigamy
Alice Orange (35) , a lance=corporal in the A.T.S. and mother of five children, was at York Assizes yesterday bound over for 12 months for bigamy.
Mr A. Snowden, prosecuting, said Orange married her legal husband at Newcastle in 1922. The union was not a happy one owing to quarrelling as a result of the wife fallling into debt.
In 1939, Orange left her husband and went to Bradford, where she met Albert Edward Eaves, who at that time was about 23. They went through a form of marriage in 1939 at St Paul's Church, Middlesborough, Orange representing herself to be Joyce Robinson, a spinster.
Inspector J. Grimes, Middlesbrough, said Orange was married when she was only 16.
The Commandant of Orange's unit gave her a good character.
Mr Justice Hilbery said her action was difficult to understand. She had a good Army character and had done Eaves no apparent harm. He would not put the stigma of gaol upon her on this occasion.
1945 October Electoral Register
28 Warden Street, Newcastle
Alice Orange and Smith Lynam both registered to vote at this address
cross check for Smith Lynam in GRO Births
1898 Q4 Chester le Street, Smith Shipley Lynam, MMN HAY
Boo
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I dont know what else to say Boo, but wow! That's some good research, thankyou. That road side by side map is great tool too.
Going backwards from that 1945 census, and seeing Alice Orange and Smith Lynam both at the same abode, you would have to think that this Alice was indeed born Lynam. Most likely moved back there once the marriage split with John. 28 was the street number on the birth certificate too.
I do have Ancestry membership and have found a few family trees there where they show her an Smith being brother/sister. She seemed to have 5 or 6 other kids listed in these trees, which you noted in your birth record search. Doing some digging know to find out all their names and see if there is any still living.
No tree mentions Albert Eaves yet, so will have a look into him and see if there were any further offspring.
Have ordered a DNA test too, still awaiting arrival at the centre in Ireland, hearing there is some long delays now though
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Wow it is amazing research and an amazing story .
My apologies for sending you down wrong path at first
boos timeline makes it all hang together .
Good luck with the LYNAM +ORANGE descendants and your DNA results.
Ps from 1911 census Alice's parents had been married 24 years and had 11 children
10 of them are on the census with them
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On the 1939 register 3 of the 5 ORANGE children are named
the first and last children are redacted so could still be living .
John b 1926 d1978. # has descendants with trees on ancestry
Margaret b 1929 has the added surnames Pearson crossed out and TURLEY . In green
Constance# or christina b 1931 has added surname BLAKE in blue so these are other surames to look out for
#According to trees daughter Maud b 1923 d 2008 husband may still be living one tree is from her direct descendant
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Given an address in Newcastle, I had a firkle in the records and did find a tentative link for an Alice Orange to Warden St - but not till 1945.
Boo! Oh Wow!
Firstly I have to say I have NEVER heard of the word 'firkle'!
If the amazing results you have produced are a result of 'firkling' we all need to learn how to do it.
I am truly amazed - 'well done' is an understatement.
DownUnder33 -- great idea to get a DNA test now and see what that brings up. Good Luck with it and I sincerely hope the results confirm the background of Alice for certain.
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So sorry - I tried to quote PART of Boo's message, but my message appeared within the quote! Hope it's not too confusing.
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I was intrigued by the word firkle too.
Are we all firklers ?
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So sorry - I tried to quote PART of Boo's message, but my message appeared within the quote! Hope it's not too confusing.
When you edit a quote down to just a single sentence you must make absolutely certain you don’t delete [/quote] at the end. If you do delete it then what you say will appear as part of the quote (hope that makes sense).
Boo is noted for her firkling powers :)
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I was intrigued by the word firkle too.
Are we all firklers ?
I've been asked this before, (its a word I've used all my life and I always thought it was common) my interpretation is here:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=800305.msg6578302#msg6578302
Boo
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Thank you JenB for your help explaining the quotes -- and Boo for teaching us a new word!
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Wow it is amazing research and an amazing story .
My apologies for sending you down wrong path at first
boos timeline makes it all hang together .
Good luck with the LYNAM +ORANGE descendants and your DNA results.
Ps from 1911 census Alice's parents had been married 24 years and had 11 children
10 of them are on the census with them
All good Brigidmac, better to have multiple options and ideas put up than nothing at all. I appreciate it
Yes definitely 11 siblings, have collated all their names now. Very interesting story developing, Alice certainly lived a different life
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Well done Boo on some great firkling!
Unfortunately I have no finds to report myself. Just updating now that I have been able to search through several Northumberland South cemetery records yesterday and have not been able to locate an Alice Orange death registered 1951. I presume that will be her registered under original married surname?
So I wonder if death took place there but she is buried elsewhere .. perhaps Newcastle?
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Well done Boo on some great firkling!
Unfortunately I have no finds to report myself. Just updating now that I have been able to search through several Northumberland South cemetery records yesterday and have not been able to locate an Alice Orange death registered 1951. I presume that will be her registered under original married surname?
So I wonder if death took place there but she is buried elsewhere .. perhaps Newcastle?
Hi RTL, with so little info to go on, all I did was to find whatever I could for anyone listed as Alice Orange in the records in and around Newcastle
There was one whose birth name was Orange who shows up as being the 'adopted daughter' on a single lady called Magdalene Stokoe Moore. I think this one was most likely to be the lady who died in 1951 - but don't have anything to confirm that other than she is in the electoral registers as Alice Maud Orange.Though birth reg just says Alice, the death reg has Alice M.
and another whose birth surname was Lynam and she married a man called John Henry Orange.
I believe the second one is the more likely (but not certain) to be the lady who gave birth in 1941, Norfolk as she has a tentative link to the street address on the birth cert. Given those newspaper reports her death could have been registered in an entirely different name.
As ever, I just firkle about and find 'possibles', the OP would still need to check them out carefully to be more sure.
Boo
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You have Smith Lynam and Alice at Warden Street, Newcastle in 1945.
Smith seems to have died 1973 registered Newcastle upon Tyne (d.o.b. 28 Oct 1898).
I do still wonder if 1951 Alice might be the relevant one. (Although, I agree relevant Alice might be registered under completely different name.) Also wonder if she might be in Elswick cemetery records as this I think was near Warden Street?
FamilySearch may have records but all I am getting is 'error' when I try to access so it might be down or is this just happening for me?
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You have Smith Lynam and Alice at Warden Street, Newcastle in 1945.
Smith seems to have died 1973 registered Newcastle upon Tyne (d.o.b. 28 Oct 1898).
I do still wonder if 1951 Alice might be the relevant one. (Although, I agree relevant Alice might be registered under completely different name.) Also wonder if she might be in Elswick cemetery records as this I think was near Warden Street?
FamilySearch may have records but all I am getting is 'error' when I try to access so it might be down or is this just happening for me?
Im having trouble trying to verify which Alice passed away in 1951, looks like family trees on Ancestry are linking both names to the notice, frustrating.
Is it possible to attain death certificates in England, and if so, would it list birth year or mothers maiden name?
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Oh DownUnder33 -- whilst you can obtain death certificates in England from July 1837 -- at the time you want one, birth dates are not shown. Just the age at death, as supplied by the informant.
I think it was 1969 when actual birth dates started being recorded - along with a maiden name of a female. (I am sure someone will kindly correct me on that if it's wrong.)
Unfortunately no parents names are shown unless it's a child's death maybe - or unless a parent is an informant and gives their status.
Hence - at the time in question, depending on who registered the death and where it took place, you may struggle to know whether it's your Alice. Alternatively though - you may be able to eliminate that person.
Just for future reference - and do forgive me if you know this, you can order certificates from the General Register Office. From there you can request a PDF copy or a paper copy (PDF contains the same info and is cheaper).
You will need to register if you do decide to order.
https://www.gov.uk/general-register-office
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As Pennines says the information on English death registrations at that time do not include dates of birth, just an age at death (as far as the informant is aware). IF the death was registered by a family member that could verify which Alice Orange it was, as could the usual address of the deceased.
This page tells you what information was included on each type of BMD certs in England & Wales, depending on when the event was registered
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/images/CG14.pdf
1951 electoral register Newcastle, has Susannah Moore, Magdalen S Moore, Alice Maud Orange at 28 St Mark's St.
1952 Register for that address has just Susannah Moore.
Alice M Orange death registered Q1 1951, Magdalen S Moore, death registered Q4 1951
So, its highly possible that the death reg for Alice M Orange in 1951 is the girl who was the adopted daughter of Magdalen- but its also possible that she married or had moved 'anywhere' outside England/Wales.
Sorry but sometimes finding out for sure does involve a financial cost for the relevant records.
You could try asking the tree owner if they have the actual cert (rather than a likely index entry) and, if so, are willing to share the detail.
Boo
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Back to firkling.
The online newspapers are notoriously problematic to search. The OCR is often garbled and the scans are frequently dire to try to read.
Given a death reg of Q1 1951 for this Alice Maud Orange and an address of St Mark's Street, I have looked at every edition from 1st Jan to see IF I can make out a death notice that may match this death.
Thankfully I only had to look up to 23 Jan (for some of mine I have had to look through 3 months of newspapers, but often have had success)
The scan is not very good, but I believe this is what the entry says:
Newcastle Evening Chronicle 23 January 1951, page 9 col 2
ORANGE 28 St Mark's Street Jan 19, aged 43 years. Alice Maud adopted niece of the Misses Madeline Stokoe and Susannah Moore. Interment Heaton Cemetery Wednesday 1.30 p.m. Funeral Private.
So the death reg relates to the lady whose birth name was Orange and not the lady whose birth name was Lynam who married a John Henry Orange.
Boo
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Fantastic firkling again, Boo.
How strange to say 'adopted niece' - informative certainly, but we still do not know which Alice is the correct one unfortunately.
However your firkling saves getting a death cert - as we certainly know which person died in 1951.
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Well I may be ok at firkling, but I am obviously rubbish at looking 'properly' at records I find (which is one of the reasons I always refer to what I have found as 'possible' and that they need to be checked out rather than taken as being writ in stone).
Ok so the 1945 electoral register I posted about in reply 15 that is the tentative link of an Alice Orange to Warden St. and the Lynam family
Is correct,
BUT if I'd bothered to look back a few pages to the first page in that polling district I would have seen it was a 'Service Register', rather than a Civilian Residential Register. Its been bugging me that there was hardly anyone recorded in the streets on that page, so that prompted me to have another look.
So both Smith Lynam and Alice Orange were serving in the forces when that register was compiled.
Which adds a little more weight to this being the same lady that was in the A.T.S. and was up in court for bigamy.
Boo
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Just an update to confirm that Ticketyboo's research has officially checked out, my DNA results came back this morning and I have multiple matches for Stephen Lynam (Alice's father). Once again Tickety, your firkling was amazing, thankyou!
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Oh DownUnder33 -- what great news. Thank you for the update - and Boo, what can I say.
Well Done to the Firkling Angel of the North!
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Really, really pleased you have more weight to add to the possibles I found for Alice :-)
Were there any links to the man from Norfolk you had as a possible father for the child born to Alice, who had been brought up by the Norfolk family?
I have no experience of the DNA results stuff but it does sound very promising.
It would be worth you spending time reading posts about DNA to get a good understanding of how to interpret and follow up on results. People who have experience of this route will happily answer any questions.
Boo
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Really pleased for you. It might take a while to get any links to unknown father but having location and possible name definitely helps .
Do let us know of any further progress and ask for help interpretating DNA results if you need to .
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This is my family. John Henry orange was my great grandad and Alice orange / lynam my great grandmother. They had two children together chrissie orange / blake and John Robert orange. John orange is my grandfather mums dad
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This is my family. John Henry orange was my great grandad and Alice orange / lynam my great grandmother. They had two children together chrissie orange / blake and John Robert orange. John orange is my grandfather mums dad
Welcome to Rootschat Markw86 :-)
Though DownUnder33 hasn't been on the forums since 2022, provided they use the same email address they will get a notification of your post. Fingers crossed they will pop back and after you've made a couple more posts you will be able to use the PM system to share info.
In the meantime if you have questions regarding this family, do ask and we'll do our best to help. Please note we aren't allowed to name/discuss/research anyone who is still alive
Boo
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Boos incredible detective skills again on show to find me, as I don't actually use that email much.
Good to hear from you Mark! I do have a tree that shows John and Christina in it, along with a Maud Orange/Oxnard and a Margaret Orange/Pearson/Turley. Would these be correct too?
At a guess then, without breaking board rules, your mums name would start with either an P or an M?
As you may of read, Alice was my grandmother. I believe she had a quick relationship with my grandfather in Norwich and left shortly after my father was born. Did you know much about Alice at all?
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Hi yes my mums name starts with a p.
With regards to Alice this was my mum's grandmother. She left the children and her husband and fled to bradford where she tried to remarry under a false name. At some point she returned and lived with her brother Stephen but my mum stated she never contacted her children or was heard from. Her children were raised by their father and my mum referred to her granny orange raising them also. Maud was john h oranges sister and lived with him for a period until she wed. I met maud quite often and she had some great tales to tell. My side of the family now unfortunately has no living male oranges left now to carry on the name but i do belive there are few left around the newcastle area.
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This is probably more of interest to Markw86 but no doubt all info may help DownUnder33 too.
Either Alice died or John Henry divorced her (I think that is the most likely but would need to see what the second marriage cert says to confirm it) and he remarried in 1943 to Wilhelmina Baggaley
He died in 1957.
Newcastle Evening Chronicle
ORANGE Newcastle. 172 Monday Street on Dec 15 (suddenly) aged 54 years John Henry beloved husband of Wilhelmina (nee Baggaley) and dear father of M_, J_, P_, C_, J_ and T_. Interment St Nicholas Cemetery on Thurs 3 pm leaving residence 2.40 pm Friends and workmates please meet at cemetery.
(I'm stuck for time atm, and haven't checked to see if any of those named children are deceased so won't post their names just now)
St Nicholas Cemetery burial register 19 Dec 1957, Section W grave 146
(you need to be signed into an account on Family search to view this but its free and simple to register)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3VC-JG2M?i=351&cat=828163
His 2nd wife, Wilhelmina (?known as Winnie) died on 7th Apr 1961, page 8
Newcastle Evening Chronicle 08 April 1981 page
ORANGE Newcastle 172 Monday Street on April 7, aged 54 years, Winnie, beloved wife of the late John. Interment St Nicholas Cemetery, Monday 2pm, leaving residence 1.40pm . Friends and neighbours please meet at the cemetery
St Nicholas Cemetery burial register 10 Apr Section W grave 146 (same grave as John Henry)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3VC-JP8C?i=400&cat=828163
I can see 6 births, surname Orange, mother's maiden name Lynam registered in Newcastle between 1923 and 1935
and there is one birth on FreeBMD in Newcastle 1943 registered with surname Orange with a mother's maiden name of Baggaley
Boo
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Nearly going off-topic - BUT - Tickettyboo - isn't the term "Firtle" rather than "firkle" =
Verb. To appear busy but without actually achieving anything, to tinker, to do a task which is seen as a waste of time. E.g."He's been firtling in the shed all morning." Northern use? Noun.
:-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
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So doing some research on Alice lynham I've came across a few bits. So after john h orange she went to Bradford and met Albert eaves then wed an Herbert cockaday Marsham and then George ablett. But I have also stumbled across a marriage to a Frederick Howlett in Norwich also. Does any of that sound familiar
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Nearly going off-topic - BUT - Tickettyboo - isn't the term "Firtle" rather than "firkle" =
Verb. To appear busy but without actually achieving anything, to tinker, to do a task which is seen as a waste of time. E.g."He's been firtling in the shed all morning." Northern use? Noun.
:-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
hey you! Others may be able to spell but my usage and spelling is firkle :-) I am way too old to change my ways and terminology now and to be fair my 'firkling' does sometimes produce results !
Boo
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Hey, ho! At least we are still alive! :-*
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Hi yes my mums name starts with a p.
With regards to Alice this was my mum's grandmother. She left the children and her husband and fled to bradford where she tried to remarry under a false name. At some point she returned and lived with her brother Stephen but my mum stated she never contacted her children or was heard from. Her children were raised by their father and my mum referred to her granny orange raising them also. Maud was john h oranges sister and lived with him for a period until she wed. I met maud quite often and she had some great tales to tell. My side of the family now unfortunately has no living male oranges left now to carry on the name but i do belive there are few left around the newcastle area.
Thats unfortunate to hear what Alice did, no contact upon her return. It seems to be a trait for her, as my father didnt know her at all, and doesnt like speaking about it.
I'm 99% sure that Alice and my grandfather Herbert Marsham didnt marry though. However she did marry Albert Eaves, for which I was going to track a wedding certificate. I had this happening in Middlesborough though?
The Frederick Howlett one is new, hadnt seen that. Do you have a link to the record at all?
Also with your mother being P, that would make her and I Half Cousins, and we would be Half Cousins Once Removed.
Might be easier to message via email though if you'd like, that way we can mention any living relatives.
Moderator comment: edited to remove personal e-mail address in accordance with RootsChat general practice and guidance, to prevent others spamming or abusing it. Please use the personal message system to exchange e-mail addresses. Thanks
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So doing some research on Alice lynham I've came across a few bits. So after john h orange she went to Bradford and met Albert eaves then wed an Herbert cockaday Marsham and then George ablett. But I have also stumbled across a marriage to a Frederick Howlett in Norwich also. Does any of that sound familiar
1. Eaves- Robinson (bigamous)
The GRO ref is on Free BMD (not sure if the cert would be available, I have no idea if its restricted as it was later proved to be bigamous but worth a shot at sending for it - though it will have a cost of £11)
Marriages Q4 1939 Middlesborough 9d 1827 George W Eaves and Joyce Robinson
2. I can't find a likely entry in the Marriages index for Herbert Cockaday Marsham
3 Ablett - Lynam
The Derbyshire Times 21 April 1950, page 3 col 2
Marriages
ABLETT- Lynam
The marriage took place on Saturday April 15th at Clay Cross Parish Church between George Ablett , Mayfield, Handley Lane, Clay Cross and Alice Lynam, Newmarket Lane, Clay Cross
I checked the 1939 register for Newmarket Lane, Clay Cross and there is a Lynam family listed there. Though no Alice is showing there are two redacted entries and I checked the births for the children who are named on the 1939 register and using their MMN searched for an Alice Lynam with that MMn and there is one in the Births index so I think you can probably discount this marriage as being for 'your' Alice.
4 Please can you give me the info on the Howlett marriage (names/date/ ref) to check out as so far I am not finding that one
Boo