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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: Greaves on Friday 18 March 22 12:37 GMT (UK)
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Annie HILL was born on 14 Nov 1876 at Woking in Surrey. Her father was John HILL, a labourer. her mother was Rosa Ellen HILL (née LAMPARD). In the 1881 census, she is living aged 4 in Worplesdon with her parents. And in the 1891 census, she is still living with her parents aged 14 in Guildford.
On 03 July 1894, Annie married Herbert Edward BERRY at Worplesdon, Surrey. The witnesses were James BERRY and Emily Sarah BERRY. Herbert had recently returned (February 1894) from Army service in East India.
After this marriage, Annie disappears from all records, or at least those that I can find or access.
However, on 13 October 1898 at Wandsworth Register Office, Herbert Edward BELLINGER, a batchelor, married Rose HARDING (née PONTING), a widow. The witnesses were James BELLINGER and Emily Sarah BELLINGER.
I know for a fact - and it is well documented - that my family were originally BELLINGERS (var sp), but adopted the name BERRY. For a period of time, they seemed to use the both surnames, choosing whichever was most convenient at the time. There is no doubt that the Herbert Edward that married Annie HILL was the same Herbert Edward that four years later married Rose HARDING.
I would love to know what happened to Annie HILL. I don't believe she died, at least I can't find an appropriate record. Nor can I find any records for children of the marriage.
Was the marriage annulled? At the time of the marriage, Annie claimed to be 19, though she was in fact not yet 18. Would that be grounds for an annulment? Or did Herbert Edward simply dump her and enter a bigamous marriage with Rose? He certainly wasn't a bachelor as he claimed at the time of his second marriage.
Any suggestions as to how to find Annie post 1894?
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Did they possibly go to India if James was still serving in the army? If they did - perhaps she died there. However - that doesn’t tie in with him claiming to be a bachelor on his second marriage
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I’m fairly sure that they did not go abroad, as he was in the Army reserve between 1894 and 1898. I think the most likely explanation was that the second marriage was bigamous, perhaps explaining the choice of a Register Office and facilitated by the convenient name change.
With regard to Annie, I suppose there are a range of possibilities: death, desertion, institutionalised, annulment, divorce, affair with another man, etc. Trouble is I can’t find any relevant record or in some cases records to search.
Interestingly, according to the 1911 census her parents John and Rose had 10 children, 8 of which were still alive. I have been trying to trace the lives of the 10 children to see which had died by 1911. The idea being that if I found two who had died then Annie must be alive somewhere, perhaps under a different name. Unfortunately this has not proved to be an easy task. If an more proficient researchers could aid in this search I would be grateful.
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No births recorded on GRO online 1894-1898 under Berry or Bellinger
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Possible children that died before 1911 census
John Hill
born 1/1883 Guildford mmn Lampard
baptised 25 Mar 1883 Guildford, John (labourer) & Rose of Banister Farm
died 4/1900 aged 17 Guildford
buried 6 Dec 1900 Woking St Peter, res Round Hill Farm, Woking
from the newspaper he died on the 1st, 1901 Cyril H Olliff at the farm
Ellen Hill
born 1/1895 Guildford mmn Lampard
baptised privately 19 Feb 1895 Worplesdon, John (bailiff) & Rose Ellen of Gravetts Lane, Worplesdon
died 4/1895 aged 1 Guildford
buried 28 Dec 1895 Worplesdon
It would need confirmation that the births and deaths are the same people.
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Hi Comberton
It's the whereabouts of Annie Berry that are needed. Annie Hill was b 1876 married Herbert Berry 1894. He remarried 1898 as a bachelor. No births under Berry or Bellinger with mmn Hill between 1894-1898
Lampard was Annie's mothers maiden name
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Thanks Carole. I can't help with Annie Berry but I was trying to help with the identification of the two children who died before the 1911 census as mentioned at the end of reply 2. The death of Ellen is likely as she is not on the 1901 census but the death of John is more uncertain. Greaves may have this information already.
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No I don’t have anything definite. I think Ellen is dead by 1911. There is a probable burial on Anestry. I also think John is dead, but do not have any proof. A number of trees on Ancestry support these views, but as we all know it is wise to take such trees with a big pinch of salt.
If the above is true, it suggests Annie was alive in 1911. Or at least, that her parents believed her to be alive.
But as to her whereabouts, that is even more problematic.
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Hi Comberton
Sorry - now realise the reason you were posting re deaths 🤭🤭
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That's alright Carole, wish we could help with Annie Berry.
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I have now looked at the lives of all ten children. And as far as I can see - that is without having access to relevant BMD records - only two of the 10 children had died by 1911: John in 1900 and Ellen in 1885. Which seems to suggest that Annie was still alive in 1911 and that her parents were aware of this fact.
I went as far as to look up the 1921 census, which only adds to the confusion. Rosah Ellen is now head of the family, her status being married. Her husband is nowhere to be seen, though he appears to have died long after Rosa in 1938, compared to her 1925. Interestingly, whilst I can find death records for both John and Rosa, I can only find a burial record for Rosa. They do not appear to be buried in the same grave.
Also on the 1921 census return is Rosa's youngest daughter, Sophie Hill (24). The next names are Sarah LEE (26), who is recorded for some strange reason as a son-in-law, working as a wheel tester in Thames Ditton, and Nora LEE (6), recorded as a daughter, presumably the daughter of Sarah. All I know about the LEE name is that Frank LEE apparently married Sophie HILL in Kingston in 1915. Sophie would have been about 18. Some trees on Ancestry claim that their first child born in 1915 was Nora LEE.
The final name on the return is Roland NICHOLLS (7), recorded as a grandson. This makes sense as Ben HILL married a Lily Agness NICHOLS in 1912 in Addlestone.
So the 1921 census does not clear up very much. It gives no insight into Annie's whereabouts. It raised the question of where John was in 1921, clearly not at home. And who is Sarah LEE?
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Nora Kathleen Lees marriage names her father as Frank Lee (Ancestry)
ADDED Her baptism also on ancestry has her mother as Sophie and father Frank
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I agree that Nora is the daughter of Frank Lee and Sophie Hill. But who the he’ll is Sarah Lee, surely not the wrongly transcribed Frank Lee. FindMyPast surely wouldn’t make such a gross mistake, especially when they are charging extra for accessing this record!
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I think that is is extremely likely that it is a transcription error
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Sadly, I think that you are right, though I'm not willing to pay the extra to see the actual image. I know that it cost FindMyPast a considerable sum to digitalise the 1921 census, but think that they have their pricing wrong.
Meanwhile back on the main point, I did wonder - though less so now - whether Sophie might have been Annie's child from her short marriage, but have found nothing to support this speculation.
It would appear clear, however, that Annie's parents believed that she was alive in 1911, when she would have been 35. So where was she? And what name was she using?
What name does a woman use if her marriage is annulled? Does she revert back to her maiden name? Or does she retain her married name? Are there records of annulments? And if so who keeps them?
Despite declaring her age to be 19 when she married Herbert George Berry, Annie was in fact only 17. I have often thought that perhaps the reason for their marriage might have been a pregnancy, though I have never found any record of any birth.
I have no idea where to go with this search.
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She could use whatever name she liked, maybe even the surname of a new man in her life ::)
FindMyPast have got to try and recover their costs for doing the restoration and transcription of this census. I suspect that many of us have not 'opened' as many records as we would have done on previous census so it will be harder to recover their costs. Presumably you purchased the transcript
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My gripe is that they charge separately for the transcript and the image. I would much prefer a fixed price for the complete record, both transcript and image. If like me you choose to purchase only the transcript, you have no way of checking it’s accuracy without paying extra. The discount for FindMyPast subscribers is not wonderful.
We have waited years for this release, so waiting a little longer for it to become free will be the chosen path for many, just as it was for the 1939 register.
I am still puzzled how it is possible to mistake Sarah for Frank. I know transcription errors are inevitable, but I don’t see how this one went unchecked. The “son in law” was a clue that perhaps Sarah was not correct!
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I have only bought 2 but both images, one I thought the index was bad until I saw the handwriting and spelling. I can imagine Sarah / Frank looking similar though
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The real disappointment is that I am no nearer to finding Annie post her marriage.
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Do you have her date of birth. Ignore me, I see you have it in your first post :)
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Reply 12
Sometimes women were named as Mrs + husband's name
So Sarah HILL could indeed be Mrs Frank LEE
or a line could have been missed in the transcription
You seem to be on right track anyway