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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Gallicrow on Tuesday 29 March 22 09:19 BST (UK)
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Morning All.
My 2xgreat grandfather was a William McIntosh, born around 1847 in Dundee or thereabouts and died in 1908 in Kent.
When I first started constructing my family tree, I found a plausible birth for him with the parents James McIntosh and Janet Mitchell (see https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/KG4Q-JCG). However I've recently been in contact with someone in Canada who has a completely different family that William McIntosh was born into.
One way of clearing up who, if anyone, is correct would be if William's marriage record of 28th August 1875 to Annie Copping contained the names of his parents. However I've never seen a Scottish marriage record of that period and so before I splash out on "Scotlands People" I thought I'd check here to see if anyone can give me advice about what information might be included in it.
Thanks very much.
Jon
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Date, place and religious form of marriage. Names, ages, occupations, and addresses of bride and groom and whether they were previously married. Names and occupations of parents of bride and groom, including mothers' maiden names, and whether they are still alive. Name and designation of the minister/priest marrying the couple and the names of the two witnesses.
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Wow, that's great! Thanks very much GR2. I'd better go and buy those credits.
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Well it looks like I was wrong, but I think the guy in Canada was too.
(https://tinyimg.io/i/WtGpfCL.jpg)
William's parents were James and Elspeth McIntosh. I can't make out Elspeth's maiden name - is it S <something> <something> I E ?
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Sime?
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Thanks Millmoor, that looks very likely. Especially as Family Search came up with a possible match for an Elspeth Sime / Syme who married James McIntosh:
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/K8XN-5T4
In fact, this is the family that the Canadian relative of mine (I wasn't sure he was a relative until now!) has.
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Looks as if Elspeth may also have been known as Elizabeth. This is not uncommon because the name Elspeth is a variant of the name Elizabeth.
William McIntosh, son of James McIntosh and Elisabeth Syme, was baptised in Abernyte in 1847. There's also a baptism of Charles, son of James McIntosh and Elizabeth Sime, in Abernyte in 1852.
The 1861 census, Longforgan, lists James McIntosh, 44, wife Elspeth, 40, and Agnes, 21; Innes, 13; Charles, 9, David, 7; Allan, 4 and an unnamed baby. William McIntosh, 14, born Abernyte, is a servant in the household of James Playfair, also in Abernyte.
Allen Aird McIntosh was born on 12 January 1857 in Longforgan, and Janet Sim McIntosh on 12 August 1861 in Errol, both to James McIntosh and Elspeth Sim or Sime.
In 1851 they're in Abernyte. James is 35, wife is Elizabeth, 31, and the children are Agnes, 11; John, 6; William, 3; and Innes, 1.
James McIntosh and Elizabeth/Elspeth Sim/Syme were married in 1841. The banns were called in both Coupar Angus and Kirriemuir, which normally means that one of them resided in Kirriemuir and the other in Coupar Angus. Janet Sim McIntosh's birth certificate will confirm the date and place of her parents' marriage.
Elspeth McIntosh or Sim, mother's maiden surname James, died in Longforgan in 1878 aged 55. Her death certificate will tell you whether or not she was a widow, which will help to narrow the search for James' death.
Elisabeth Sim, daughter of John Sime and Agnes James, was baptised in Inchture in 1817.
You can view the originals of all this information at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk. Happy hunting!
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1841 Census at Balgay, Inchture. Agnes Sime, 50; Elspeth Sime, 20; Agnes McIntosh, 1.
Why was Elspeth living in Inchture on 7 June 1841 when her banns had been recorded the previous day in Kirriemuir and two days earlier in Coupar Angus?
And Agnes was obviously born before her parents' marriage. Sure enough, there is a reference in the minutes of Inchture Kirk Session.
5th Aug 1839. Compeared Elspeth Sime and confessed that she had been guilty of the sin of fornication with James McIntosh in the parish of Co Angus, and that she had given birth to an illegitimate child on the 11th day of May last, and that she was desirous of being taken on discipline, it being necessary however to obtain James McIntosh’ acknowledgement of the paternity, and the guilt having been contracted in the above mentioned parish, and understanding that the said James McIntosh is at present resident at Drumclune in the parish of Kirriemuir, the Session here resolved to furnish that Session with an extract of Elspeth Sime’s declaration that they might have an opportunity of citing the accused and obtaining his confession with the view of transferring the said Elspeth Sime to the Kirk-Session of Co Angus for discipline and Church privileges. The Clerk was instructed to write to the Kirk-Session of Kirriemuir to this effect. [Inchture Kirk Session minutes, National Records of Scotland CH2/417/1/31]
2d Sept 1839. An extract from the minutes of the Kirk-Session of Kirrymuir in reference to the case of Elspeth Sime and James McIntosh referred to in a former minutes, was then produced intimating that James McIntosh had acknowledged the guilt charged against him and desired to be taken on discipline, it was resolved accordingly to transmit a copy of said extract to the Kirk-Session of C-Angus in order that the parties might be either taken on discipline there or remitted to the Kirk-Session here for that purpose. [Inchture Kirk Session minutes, National Records of Scotland CH2/417/1/31]
7th Oct 1839. Next compeared Elspeth Sime referred to in former minutes, and a letter having been read from the Revd P J Stevenson, Co Angus, intimating that it was the wish of the Kirk-Session there as Jas MacIntosh had acknowledged being the father of her illegitimate child, that the parties should be taken on discipline at Inchture. Elspeth Sime professed penitence and desired to obtain Church privileges The Session resolved accordingly that she be rebuked, exhorted and absolved by the Moderator, which he did in the usual way, and as James McIntosh had not appeared the Clerk was instructed to request the Kirk-Session of Kirriemuir either to take him on discipline there, or to cite hime to appear here at the ordinary meeting of Session on the fourth proximo at 12 o’clock noon. [Inchture Kirk Session minutes, National Records of Scotland CH2/417/1/33]
4th Nov 1839. Compeared Elspeth Sime, named in former minutes, for the purpose of obtaining baptism for her illegitimate child, which was administered accordingly. [Inchture Kirk Session minutes, National Records of Scotland CH2/417/1/35]
I have yet to find anything in the the minutes of either Coupar Angus or Kirriemuir Kirk Sessions, or anything further in the Inchture ones. But at least the foregoing seems to explain why the banns were called in those parishes. But why not in Elspeth's own parish, Inchture?
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Thanks very much for posting all of that information Forfarian.
It looks like Agnes McIntosh never married and had an illegitimate child of her own when she 21, who she named after her mother:
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/G6DY-RPN
I've seen that middle name of "Innes" a few times recently when looking at Scottish records. How would it be pronounced and does it still exist today? Sometimes old names seem to fall out of use for no discernible reason, though other times ("Thomasina") the reason is more apparent.
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Innes is a Scottish surname, pronounced INN-ess. It comes from the barony of Innes, in the parish of Urquhart, Moray, and is derived from the Gaelic word innis, which roughly means flat land beside a river, like a flood plain or water meadow, or an island. There are loads of Scottish places with inch or insh or insch in their names.
In a survey done in 1990, Innes was the 60th commonest surname both in what used to be Grampian Region, which included Moray, and in what used to be Lothian Region. It didn't make the top 100 surnames in Scotland as a whole.
It's much rarer as a given name than as a surname. According to Scotland's People, there are 563 surviving baptism records of children before the start of statutory registration in 1855 with Innes as one of their names, of whom just 114 were given Innes as their only name, and most of them were male.
(Where did Bowdidge come from?)
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Thanks Forfarian.So Innes when used as a given name is pronounced the same way as the surname, which the late Neil Innes made familiar to many.
Bowdidge (my mother's maiden name) originated, I think, in Dorset. It's a rare enough name that whenever I come across a record of a Bowdidge I try to trace the person and his family back to my own family tree. I was doing just that last night when I stumbled across someone called Philip Bowdidge who is an expert (still living) on matchbox cars (I was looking at eBay auctions). I quickly traced his family back a few generations to one of the main sources of Bowdidges - the village of Wootton Fitzpaine.
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Did you type Bowdidge by mistake for McIntosh in Reply #8 above, then?
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Ah! I see, my mistake. I've modified that message now. I assumed you had got the name Bowdidge from the bottom of my messages.
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Yes, that was what was confusing me :)