RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: haney on Saturday 02 April 22 00:21 BST (UK)
-
HI I am trying to find any information on Prisoners who were in NEWGATE 1798 and previous I have these records from the SPP. On Find My Past the records for Newgate are 1845-1861.
My research mainly involves the various places that prisoners were place on board the "Lively" tender/barque with Captain Christopher DOBSON as I am tracking the movements of my ancestor who was tried in Athy in 1797. I am unable to find out as yet his prison place between Athy and Dublin??
The Lively went from Dublin to Cork and the convicts were place on board the "Minerva".
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-2286124355/view.
Kind regards and thanks Dianna
-
According to Lloyds Register of shipping the vessel LIVELY, owned and captained by Dobson was classed as a Brig (Brigantine) home port, Shields. (South/North Shields) Up until 1841 Shields ships were registered in Newcastle.
It maybe worthwhile to contact Tyne and Wear Archives to see if they have anything on the1797/1798 Muster Roles (Early Logbooks) and/or movements of LIVELY during this period. Be aware there were over 20 ships with the name LIVELY. around in 1797/1798.
I don't know if you have reserched these records from London Metropolitan Archives. Re Calendars or lists of prisoners 1796-1797,
https://search.lma.gov.uk/SCRIPTS/MWIMAIN.DLL/182928473/2/3/80?RECORD&UNION=Y#coll3
regards
SW
-
HI SW
Thanks so much for this information. So DOBSON actually owned the ship/brig. That is very interesting and really could lead somewhere! I will definitely contact Tyne and Wear Archives, who knows what they may have! Fingers crossed.
I had NO idea that a ship's name could be given to so many different ones. Always something to learn! I will also try the link to London Metropolitan Archives. I'm grateful for any snippet or clue. Thanks so much. Regards Dianna
-
Hi again SW I see now why you have sent me the link to the London Archives.
The Newgate prison I am speaking of is in Ireland NOT England. Sorry should have been more specific there! There was Dublin Castle, Kilmainham and Newgate (all in Dublin).
I suspect my Michael was in one of these three places perhaps.
Unless he was on a Hulk. Many thanks Dianna
-
My research mainly involves the various places that prisoners were place on board the "Lively" tender/barque with Captain Christopher DOBSON as I am tracking the movements of my ancestor who was tried in Athy in 1797. I am unable to find out as yet his prison place between Athy and Dublin??
The Lively went from Dublin to Cork and the convicts were place on board the "Minerva".
My first guesses if he was held in County Kildare would be either Athy or Naas.
Athy gaol was in White's Castle 1730-1830s.
Confusingly the prison in Naas was known as White's Castle Gaol. It was in use from 1786. The site was later occupied by the Town Hall which has recently become a library and cultural centre. Historical information on Libraries section of County Kildare website https://www.kildare.ie
There were convict depots for prisoners awaiting transportation. Kilmainham was a convict depot. It was built to replace an older prison in 1796.
Information about Irish prisons and resources on Irish Genealogy Toolkit.
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/irish-genealogy-search.html
A-Z contents list: Courts; Crimes; Prison Records
"History Ireland" journal has some articles about prisons e.g. "A scene of shameful disorder and dissipation" names several prisons
https://www.historyireland.com/a-scene-of-shameful-disorder-and-dissipation/
Putting search term prison or gaol or convict or transportation may find more articles.
Have you looked for newspaper reports of the trial? They may mention where the convicted prisoners were taken.
-
HI Maiden Stone
Re articles I think I have covered that as best as I could from Aus. I found as many as I could re the day Michael was tried at Athy and there seemed to one case that took precedence by the looks of it.
That was the trial of Simon FRAZER who murdered? another guy! I will have to find it now! Could have been in The Saunders Newsletter and Dailey Advertiser?? August 1791
Specific to this time was the trial/report at least of FARRELL CUFFE who is reported in the paper Wednesday April 26 1797 (Saunders). I have been following Farrell Cuffe as well! Friend to my Michael Byrne.
The date gave me some hope that there may have been a "snippet" of information on Michael being arrested or held somewhere??? but the day of his trial all the papers were filled with the report of SIMON FRASER and JOHN ROSS were on trial for the murder of a CHRISTOPHER DIXON.
Anyway I just keep picking away at it. LOL Thanks Dianna
-
Hi again SW I see now why you have sent me the link to the London Archives.
Unless he was on a Hulk. Many thanks Dianna
National Archives in England contain various Irish records e.g. military.
Convict hulk "Essex" was moored at Kingstown, County Dublin from 1824. Another hulk "Surprise" was at Cobh, Cork.
-
Thanks unfortunately I would need Hulks in the late 1790's. I will have to try and find any records of the dates that Athy had prisoners kept there. I may have to search the newspapers again just to see where (if recorded) the prisoners were taken from after their respective trials in Athy.
It would make sense that Michael was there after his trial. Many thanks Dianna
-
Thanks unfortunately I would need Hulks in the late 1790's.
As far as I know there were no dedicated convict hulks stationed off Ireland then. However an article about prison hulks on National Archives website mentions records for Ireland from 1790s onwards.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Another article about prison hulks on "Shipwrecks of Cork Harbour" says that prisoners were held in city and county gaols in the early days of transportation to Australia until arrangements could be made to take them to ports such as Dublin and Cork to be shipped out to prison shops. It's a brief article giving an overview of the situation. www.corkshipwrecks.net
"Guide to penal transportation records: Ireland to Australia 1788-1868" is another informative article on Irish National Archives website. It says all transportation registers pre 1836 were destroyed in 1922.
https://www.nationalarchives.ie
-
HI I am trying to find any information on Prisoners who were in NEWGATE 1798 and previous I have these records from the SPP. On Find My Past the records for Newgate are 1845-1861.
My research mainly involves the various places that prisoners were place on board the "Lively" tender/barque with Captain Christopher DOBSON as I am tracking the movements of my ancestor who was tried in Athy in 1797. I am unable to find out as yet his prison place between Athy and Dublin??
The Lively went from Dublin to Cork and the convicts were place on board the "Minerva".
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-2286124355/view.
I see Farrell Cuffe was one of the convicts named in the petition.
It says near the start of the petition that they had been in Newgate prison. Then they were on the "Lively" for 12 weeks "where they remain". Later it says their health has been affected "after 2 years confinement". Is that correct? I wasn't able to read every word.
I couldn't see a date on the petition. If Farrell Cuffe was convicted in 1797 and had been imprisoned for 2 years by the time of the petition, it must have been 1799 or later. Prisons would have been more overcrowded than usual, as a consequence of rebellions in 1798.
When did Farrell Cuff arrive in Australia?
Prisoners remaining on a ship for a long time before transportation was mentioned in the article on the Cork Shipwrecks site. (Reply eight) They weren't convict hulks, just ordinary ships used to transport prisoners.
You have several related threads about Michael Byrne and other convicts. Could you please post links to relevant ones so that people know what you've already got and which sources you've investigated?
-
Hi seaweed
I've been trying to find records of the Lively on Lloyds and could not find anything. I went to the website but nothing came up for the LIVELY or DOBSON. Would it be possible to send me the link/s you used and how you discovered it please. Many thanks Dianna
-
HI Maiden Stone
I will re look at the records with Farrell Cuffe, there is a newspaper report for him being found guilty to see if I can find the date. Farrell Cuffe was sent out here too on the Minerva, a lot of dealings with Michael and was a witness to his marriage in 1822 Sydney. Farrell Cuffe was a school teacher here. It seems as though Farrell came from Offaly originally, this is where Michaels origins could be from my researching Michaels brother William. I will look over the link I sent and the newspaper report/s and see if there is a date. Many thanks Dianna
-
HI Again yes it does say 2 years and these documents are dated 22 Nov 1798 to Dublin Castle and Oct 1798.
In the newspaper April 26, 1797 - Saunders Newsletter + Advertiser Farrell Cuffe was found Guilty of Defenderism. This could have been held at the gaol perhaps from reading the snippet. Will dig more into this. Many thanks Dianna
-
Farrell Cuffe Snippet
-
Sorry I've attached the wrong snippet. Supposed to be from the newspaper. Back to the drawing board. LOL
-
Hope this worked this time. LOL Dianna
-
Where did the dates October 1798 and 22nd November 1798 come from in Reply #12?
Is the snippet in Reply #13 the end of the letter of petition in your opening post or a different letter? The bottom of the page may be missing from the document in your opening post. The final name in the list on the document linked in your opening post is Michael Mitchel. There are 2 names below his on Reply #13.
-
Hi seaweed
I've been trying to find records of the Lively on Lloyds and could not find anything. I went to the website but nothing came up for the LIVELY or DOBSON. Would it be possible to send me the link/s you used and how you discovered it please. Many thanks Dianna
Hello,
Link sent via your PM
regards
SW
-
In the newspaper April 26, 1797 - Saunders Newsletter + Advertiser Farrell Cuffe was found Guilty of Defenderism. This could have been held at the gaol perhaps from reading the snippet.
He would have been tried at the assize court which met twice yearly.
Newspaper report in Reply #15:
" ... business of the Home Circuit"
Farrell Cuffe is named early in the article as the only person convicted. Later in the article it says 2 men named Farrell and Madden were indicted for high treason at Philipstown. Was one of those 2 men Farrell Cuffe or another man with surname Farrell?
Philipstown, King's County, both named for King Philip of Spain, consort of Queen Mary of England & Ireland, was an assize town. The courthouse was where the county court met. The prison in Philipstown was the county gaol, erected around 1800. See Samuel Lewis' Directory published 1837 for information.
Philipstown is now Daingean in County Offaly.
-
HI seaweed. Found the link and pages thanks. I have printed out the page with the Lively on it re Dobson etc. Just looking at the front of the book now working out what all the descriptions are in the various columns. Very interesting. I have emailed the Tyne Museum and will email The Maritime Museum in Greenwich as well. Thanks for all the ideas, tips and clues. May lead no where but at least it's done. Regards Dianna
-
In the newspaper April 26, 1797 - Saunders Newsletter + Advertiser Farrell Cuffe was found Guilty of Defenderism. This could have been held at the gaol perhaps from reading the snippet.
He would have been tried at the assize court which met twice yearly.
Newspaper report in Reply #15:
" ... business of the Home Circuit"
Farrell Cuffe is named early in the article as the only person convicted. Later in the article it says 2 men named Farrell and Madden were indicted for high treason at Philipstown.
Philipstown, King's County ... was an assize town. The courthouse was where the county court met. The prison in Philipstown was the county gaol, erected around 1800.
Philipstown is now Daingean in County Offaly.
Offaly History Blog has several article about courts and prisons, many written by Michael Byrne.
Examples:
"Tullamore Jail" by Michael Byrne (April 2018)
This mentions Philipstown county jail. Includes an extract from an official report into Philipstown jail. There were Acts of Parliament about prisons in 1810 and 1820. New prisons were built in Ireland.
Tullamore replaced Philipstown/Daingean as county town in 1830s. The assize court met in Tullamore instead of Philipstown after that and a new prison was built at Tullamore as a replacement for the county jail at Philipstown. Convicts in Philipstown jail were taken by canal barge to the new county jail in Tullamore when it opened. The Grand Canal opened 1798.
A new article by Michael Byrne "The Courts of Assize in Offaly and the ceremonial display of British power in Ireland" (March 2022) Brief history of Assizes in King's County. Circuit system - King's County was part of Leinster Circuit until 1796 when a new sixth circuit was established, known as the *home circuit. Describes how business of assizes was conducted. Grand Jury.
*"business of the Home Circuit" in the newspaper report.
"Grand Juries in Ireland: the politics of power in the counties" by Michael Byrne (Oct. 2021)
The blog has 13 articles in the topic "Criminal Law" in contents list.
Philipstown is Daingean in the alphabetical list of places in contents.
Taylor & Skinner maps 1777 show routes of all main roads in Ireland, in case you need to work out routes. Don't forget the Grand Canal, constructed 20 years later.
-
HI Maiden Stone Thank you so much for all that wonderful information. I will see if I can find that particular Michael BYRNE (funny coincidence!!). He maybe able to shed some light on my topic of interest. Not easy doing this kind of research without lot's of help which is most appreciated.
Even if I cannot find specific information on my Michael BYRNE and his possible movements from the "Athy" court to ?? prison anything in general is always interesting.
I have tried to research Michaels siblings as well with some success, his sister remains elusive though. Will keep searching
By researching Michaels brother William this is what gave me the clue that they may have been born (from??) Bracknagh in Co. Offally as this was stated on Williams papers when he joined the Royal Marines in 1797 (coincidentally again the same time as Michaels Trial). Regards Dianna
-
The Lively went from Dublin to Cork and the convicts were place on board the "Minerva".
When did Farrell Cuff arrive in Australia?
Prisoners remaining on a ship for a long time before transportation was mentioned in the article on the Cork Shipwrecks site. (Reply eight) They weren't convict hulks, just ordinary ships used to transport prisoners.
The "Minerva" departed 24th August 1799 as did the "Friendship". Farrell Cuffe arrived 11th January 1800 according to https://convictrecords.com/au
Information about the ship on that website says Minerva was built 1804 in Lancaster. Either that date is wrong or there was an earlier Minerva.
Added. 4 ships named Minerva existed in 1799. 2 were used by the East India Company. It was one of those (according to wikipedia) which transported convicts to Australia in 1799. Then it returned to merchant voyages in East Indies. It was lost 1805/6. The other 2 traded with West Indies and both made some voyages transporting slaves. A fifth Minerva was captured in 1799.
The Minerva built in Lancaster in 1804 made some of the later voyages transporting convicts.
-
Thank you I will look at the Cork Shipwrecks site. The logistics must have been a nightmare having so many prisoners on those ships for months at a time, feeding them etc. Will see what is on the Cork Shipwrecks website. Thanks.
-
http://www.corkshipwrecks.net/prisonhulksurprise.html
In Ireland, transportation to Australia began in 1791. The first convict ship to sail from Cork was the Queen , in September 1791. Initially convicted prisoners, were held in City and County Gaols, throughout the country. Arrangements were then made to bring them to ports such as Dublin and Cork to be shipped out in prison ships.
This was extremely inefficient, and open to massive abuses by members of local authorities who controlled these gaols. There were also massive delays with convicts languishing for months on prison ships while the human cargo was gathered. This also lined the pockets of the contractors to this trade. An investigation into Cork City Gaol, at the North Gate Bridge, in 1817, exposed the rampant corruption, and a new process for incarceration prior to transportation was needed.
That is an interesting site!
-
http://www.corkshipwrecks.net/ssshipwrecklist19thcent.html
December 01, 1833 Minerva On the 1st of December 1833, a vessel competely awash was driven into Youghal Bay. She was the Minerva , bound from New York to Liverpool. Some of the crew were rescued from the rigging. Three crew were drowned, as well as the captain, found dead in his cabin.
Will be interesting to see if this is the same "Minerva" that the guys came out here in 1800.
-
Related thread from last year "Convict Ancestor Michael Byrne"
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=851808
Have you read Memoir of Joseph Holt of Wicklow ("General" Joseph Holt) who was transported in 1799?
There's a link to it from his profile on wikitree which itself is linked from Farrell Cuffe's profile.
-
http://www.corkshipwrecks.net/ssshipwrecklist19thcent.html
December 01, 1833 Minerva On the 1st of December 1833, a vessel competely awash was driven into Youghal Bay. She was the Minerva , bound from New York to Liverpool. Some of the crew were rescued from the rigging. Three crew were drowned, as well as the captain, found dead in his cabin.
Will be interesting to see if this is the same "Minerva" that the guys came out here in 1800.
Not according to wiki. See my reply #22.
The Minerva which sailed to Australia 1799-1800 disappeared in unknown circumstances during first decade of 19thC. That Minerva has her own wiki page.
The Minerva which transported convicts 1817-24 ended her life in 1826.
There may have been 5 ships named Minerva existing in 1830. Records are incomplete.
Ships were sometimes renamed when they were sold.
The goddess Minerva was patron of trade and defensive warfare, among a list of other things.
-
All Good. Thanks for that!