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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Jason Jase on Saturday 07 May 22 22:12 BST (UK)
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I was wondering if anyone could help me with a brick wall I have on my family tree (I have been stuck on it for over a year.
-I am looking to find their parents and Siblings since for both of them I only have information on them after they were married.
-I am also looking for the Date of Death of Thomas Johnson
-I am also trying to find out how Fanny Wilmot last name turned out to be "Jaques" upon her last marriage
Facts
Thomas Johnson born 1848 • Maidstone, Kent, or Exeter, Devon England and Died ???
married 14 Jan 1877 • London, England to
Fanny Wilmot (born 3 FEB 1851 • Holy Trinity, Bristol, Gloucester, England died 18 JUN 1923 • Bath, Somerset, England)
They had a Daughter (my great grandmother)
Ruby Ingram Johnson born 16 DEC 1877 • Southampton, Hampshire, England and died 10 NOV 1956 • Kensington, London, England
1881 census, Thomas, Fanny and Ruby Johnson lived 38 Bignor St, Cheetham, Lancashire
1891 Thomas, Fanny Johnson ""Brixton, Lambeth, London, England” (no Ruby living with them?) maybe a different couple????
I think Thomas Johnson died 13 Mar 1891 buried in Prescot, Lancashire, England. Yet I am not sure if it was the same person I am related to???
1901 ??? I have found "Fanny Marchmont” with her husband ""Arthur W Marchmont”
In ""Bristol, Somerset, England”
( I know that Fanny married Arthur Marchmont for two reasons
1. Ruby Fortt nee Johnson inherited Arthur Marchmont estate upon his death and I have record of that.
2. Ruby Fortt nee Johnson told my mom her mom Fanny married a well know Author Arthur W Marchmont. (record shows Arthur Marchmont married a Fanny Jaques, I have no Idea where the Jaques name came from???
1911 I have a Fanny And Thomas Johnson living at "50 Effra Parade, Brixton SW I think this is a different couple with the same name and Thomas with the same Birth year.???? Which makes me think I have had two couple mixed up???
Anyways I would appreciate any help clearing this up
Thanks
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I would say she had another marriage before the Marchmont one.
(Or at least said she had an in between marriage)
Transcription here
http://frontierinfo.com/LAN-OPC/Search/indexp.html
Her father is Edward Wilmott, she is a widow.
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Thomas Johnson...married 14 Jan 1877...Fanny Wilmot
Do you have the 1877 marriage record? What are their fathers' names and occupations?
I see Ruby's baptism in Manchester:
Birth 1877
Baptised 23 Nov 1878
Parents Thomas & Fanny Johnson
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1891
Ruth and Fanny are in Wandsworth
Ruth Johnson 13 daughter in law (=step daughter)
Fanny Jacques age 40
William E Jacques 54. He is a Tramways manager. They have 3 servants
Lots of mis transcribing
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William Edward Jacques died October 1891
Probate to Fanny Johnson widow
So probably they didn’t ever marry.
1892 address for Fanny and Arthur most probably a lodging house.
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Thomas Johnson...married 14 Jan 1877...Fanny Wilmot
Do you have the 1877 marriage record? What are their fathers' names and occupations?
Thomas Johnson Tobacconist, father also Thomas, a Surgeon
Edward Wilmot is a Gentleman (in 1892 he is deceased and a coal dealer)
They married by licence.
Fanny’s address is Above Bar ( :o) Southampton
Thomas 60 Davies st (presumably in the parish of Hanover where marriage took place?)
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1877 marriage of Thomas Johnson to Fanny Wilmot. His father is named as Thomas Johnson (surgeon) and her father is Edward Wilmott (Gentleman)
Ruby Ingram Johnson born 16 Dec 1877 Southhampton Hampshire
She was baptised Nov 1878 in Manchester. Her father Thomas - a clerk.
1891 census Wandsworth
Ruby Johnson age 13 is living with her mother Fanny (40), now the “wife” of William E .JACQUES – 54, a tramway manager.
28 Apr 1892 Marriage ST John Preston, Lancashire
Fanny Jacques 38 widow married Arthur William Marchmont.
Her father Edward Wilmott – coal dealer
20th July 1897 St. Philip Kensington - Ruby Ingram Johnson married (under age 19 years) Alfred Herbert Fortt age 26
Her address was ST Philip’s Vicarage. He was from Widcombe, Bath
Marriage record has her father as “Gentleman” deceased.
His father as James Fortt – Manufacturer
Witness was Arthur W Marchmont and Frank Charlie Fortt
Children Stanley Marchmont Fortt (1907 Bath), France Eleanor Fortt (1908 Bath) and Arthur Raymon Fortr (1916 Bath)
Alfred Herbert Fortt died 9 Aug 1941
Ruby Ingram Fortt (Widow) died London 10 Nov 1956. Probate – Arthur Raymond Fortt Photographic artist
Fanny Marchmont died 14 June 1923
Arthur William Marchmont died 2 July 1923
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Fanny Wilmot born 3 Feb 1851; not baptised until 1860 in Bristol
On baptism mother is named Margaret Wilmot (no father mentioned)
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Don't know if connected, but there is this birth reg that would fit with birthdate.
Mothers Maiden Name - Wilmot
Fanny Wilmot Jones
Registration Date: 1851
Quarter of the Year: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration Place: Bedminster, Somerset, England
Volume: 11 Page: 70
Cas
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Fanny Wilmot (b1851) from Bristol married Alfred William Vowles, a Professor of Music in Bristol on 7 July 1871. Alfred William Vowles filed for divorce in 1876 on the grounds of adultery by Fanny and the co-respondent was named as Thomas Johnson. On her marriage to Alfred, there is no father named on her marriage certificate. Alfred and Fanny had two sons, Lewis and Julian. Decree Nisi 7 November 1876. Same lady or just huge coincidence!
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Gan Yam, I was looking at the same divorce. I was thinking she used her maiden name Wilmot when she married Johnson, because her 1st marriage had been dissolved.
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Gan Yam, I was looking at the same divorce. I was thinking she reverted to her maiden name Wilmot when she married Johnson
I would agree. Maybe Fanny could be a little economical with the truth if needs be!
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As the marriage had been dissolved, she would use her name Wilmot when she married Johnson.
The 2 Boys born of the marriage appear to have been taken in by the Vowles grandparents.
Alfred William Vowles married again in 1878
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There is a Fanny Wilmot on 1861 census in a boarding school in Bristol. Her age doesn't quite fit, so it may not be her. Could it possibly be that the late baptism was due to her getting a place at the school and being required to be baptised? just a thought
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Fanny Wilmot was baptised in Bristol on 29th July 1860, although born in 1851
BUT there were siblings baptised at the same time at St Phillip Holy Trinity Bristol
- Helen Wilmot born 2nd July 1853, baptised 29 July 1860
- Alice Mary Wilmot born 16 July 1856, baptised 29 July 1860
- Margaret Wilmot born 15 July 1859, baptised 29 July 1860
Parent for all is Margaret Wilmot (no father named), abode Clifton.
The entry for Fanny is badly water marked (difficult to read) and appears to have some words crossed / scribbled out.
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Thomas Johnson...married 14 Jan 1877...Fanny Wilmot
Do you have the 1877 marriage record? What are their fathers' names and occupations?
I see Ruby's baptism in Manchester:
Birth 1877
Baptised 23 Nov 1878
Parents Thomas & Fanny Johnson
Edward Wilmot sweet I plugged it in and that matches up
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Fanny Wilmot was baptised in Bristol on 29th July 1860, although born in 1851
BUT there siblings baptised at the same time at St Phillip Holy Trinity Bristol
- Helen Wilmot born 2nd July 1853, baptised 29 July 1860
- Alice Mary Wilmot born 16 July 1856, baptised 29 July 1860
- Margaret Wilmot born 15 July 1859, baptised 29 July 1860
Parent for all is Margaret Wilmot (no father named), abode Clifton.
The entry for Fanny is badly water marked (difficult to read) and appears to have some words crossed / scribbled out.
That is great thank you thank you. Someone else had found her fathers name as Edward but nothing else so this is great that you found this
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I cannot find birth registrations for the 3 daughters under the surname Wilmot
But this one might be for the third daughter ? ?
WILLMOTT, ALICE MARY Mothers name - MORGAN
GRO Reference: 1857 M Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 76
Also, I cannot find any of those young Wilmot girls in the 1860 census - so are they using another surname?
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That is great thank you thank you. Someone else had found her fathers name as Edward but nothing else so this is great that you found this
I suspect the name "Edward" for her father may an invention on her part. On her first marriage to VOWLES, she has no father recorded. Her baptism suggests she was illegitimate.
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Thomas Johnson...married 14 Jan 1877...Fanny Wilmot
Do you have the 1877 marriage record? What are their fathers' names and occupations?
I see Ruby's baptism in Manchester:
Birth 1877
Baptised 23 Nov 1878
Parents Thomas & Fanny Johnson
I had a Banns of sorts that looked a lot different than the other Banns I have seen it luckily some very smart people found the information I was looking for
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Fanny Wilmot (b1851) from Bristol married Alfred William Vowles, a Professor of Music in Bristol on 7 July 1871. Alfred William Vowles filed for divorce in 1876 on the grounds of adultery by Fanny and the co-respondent was named as Thomas Johnson. On her marriage to Alfred, there is no father named on her marriage certificate. Alfred and Fanny had two sons, Lewis and Julian. Decree Nisi 7 November 1876. Same lady or just huge coincidence!
well I didn't expect that I am going to put it on my family tree as unverified until I find more on that.... that is is a good find...
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There is a Fanny Wilmot on 1861 census in a boarding school in Bristol. Her age doesn't quite fit, so it may not be her. Could it possibly be that the late baptism was due to her getting a place at the school and being required to be baptised? just a thought
What was the boarding school name, where did you find that? :)
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1861 census
How about
Bristol St James 14/16/1721/97/3
Margaret WILLIAMS Head dittoed from 2 people above Unmarried 28, b Portishead. (Age should be 35, sorry)
with daughters
Fanny 10 b Bristol
Ellen (could be the Helen baptised) 7. b Bristol
Alice Mary 5 b Bristol
Margaret 2 b Bristol
And a servant Louisa Redpath 21 b St Georges
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Thomas JOHNSON
1851 census for Thomas Johnson (and family)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG1M-R31
1861 census for Thomas Johnson (and family)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M76S-CCZ
1871 census. Thomas Johnson senior had died and his widow had married George Dixon
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M76S-CCZ
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1861 census
Bristol St James 14/16/1721/97/3
Margaret WILLIAMS Head dittoed from 2 people above Unmarried 28, b Portishead
with daughters
Fanny 10 b Bristol
Ellen (could be the Helen baptised) 7. b Bristol
Alice Mary 5 b Bristol
Margaret 2 b Bristol
Excellent Work! mckha489
link here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7VZ-PSQ
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1851
and in 1851
20 Harford St, Bedminster Bristol
Mar’t WILLIAMS wife Married, 28 , husband traveller out employ. b Bristol
Fanny dau 2 mths. b Bristol
Ann Williams Sister, 24, Dress Maker, b Portishead, Somerset
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I cannot find birth registrations for the 3 daughters under the surname Wilmot
But this one might be for the third daughter who died in 1870
WILLMOTT, ALICE MARY Mothers name - MORGAN
GRO Reference: 1857 M Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 76
Also, I cannot find any of those young Wilmot girls in the 1860 census - so are they using another surname?
1861 1729 /69/26
Alice Mary Willmott with parents Henry Geo and Cecilia M.
Herbert H 6 yrs
Both children mmn Morgan.
1871 - no Alice Mary.
I would think she is the one who died in 1870.
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1877 marriage of Thomas Johnson to Fanny Wilmot. His father is named as Thomas Johnson (surgeon) and her father is Edward Wilmott (Gentleman)
Ruby Ingram Johnson born 16 Dec 1877 Southhampton Hampshire
She was baptised Nov 1878 in Manchester. Her father Thomas - a clerk.
1891 census Wandsworth
Ruby Johnson age 13 is living with her mother Fanny (40), now the “wife” of William E .JACQUES – 54, a tramway manager.
28 Apr 1892 Marriage ST John Preston, Lancashire
Fanny Jacques 38 widow married Arthur William Marchmont.
Her father Edward Wilmott – coal dealer
20th July 1897 St. Philip Kensington - Ruby Ingram Johnson married (under age 19 years) Alfred Herbert Fortt age 26
Her address was ST Philip’s Vicarage. He was from Widcombe, Bath
Marriage record has her father as “Gentleman” deceased.
His father as James Fortt – Manufacturer
Witness was Arthur W Marchmont and Frank Charlie Fortt
Children Stanley Marchmont Fortt (1907 Bath), France Eleanor Fortt (1908 Bath) and Arthur Raymon Fortr (1916 Bath)
Alfred Herbert Fortt died 9 Aug 1941
Ruby Ingram Fortt (Widow) died London 10 Nov 1956. Probate – Arthur Raymond Fortt Photographic artist
Fanny Marchmont died 14 June 1923
Arthur William Marchmont died 2 July 1923
Arthur Raymond Fortt (my Grandfather) married Pamela Barr Jul 1940 in Kensington
they had two Daughters (*) (my mom) my mom married (*) and had 3 kids (including me) after moving to Vancouver
(*), (Born (*) • Kensington, Greater London) my estranged aunt that I never met and have no idea where she is? She married a (*) for a few years and had a son (*) (born (*) • Brighton, East Sussex), my only 1st cousin that I also never met. (*) had a falling out with her whole family after the divorce in (*)?
all I know is (*) later got married a 2nd time to ???
What does being a “Gentleman” mean?
(*)
(*) Moderator Comment:
Edited in accordance with RootsChat policy of not publishing details of living people here, or details of people who may still be living. This is to protect all concerned from spam, identity abuse, internet abuse, etc, etc.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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Birth rego for
JOHNSON, THOMAS Mother - MEACOCK
GRO Reference: 1847 S Quarter in EXETER Volume 10 Page 85
Louisa MEACOCK marriage to Thomas JOHNSON
Jan 22nd 1840 Liverpool
Thomas, full age, bachelor, surgeon. Father – John Johnson, manufacturer
Louisa, full age, spinster. Father Samuel Meacock, Inn keeper
Louisa Meacock baptised 7 Nov 1818 Runcorn Cheshire. Father Samuel and mother Mary
Louisa Meacock - (Johnson) - Dixon died Macclesfield, Cheshire, in 1889 age 60
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That is great thank you thank you. Someone else had found her fathers name as Edward but nothing else so this is great that you found this
I suspect the name "Edward" for her father may an invention on her part. On her first marriage to VOWLES, she has no father recorded. Her baptism suggests she was illegitimate.
I found a Robert Edward Wilmot Horton a gentleman as stated, that is a possible father ???? but no other Edward Wilmot's are coming up (I don't have any birth date or location to search)
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1871
Margaret WILLIAMS wife M. 46, wife of Commercial. b Somerset, Portishead
Ellen Williams dau. 17 b Clifton, Bristol
Alice Williams 15 b Clifton
Amy Williams 5 b St James, Bristol
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Fanny Wilmot (b1851) from Bristol married Alfred William Vowles, a Professor of Music in Bristol on 7 July 1871. Alfred William Vowles filed for divorce in 1876 on the grounds of adultery by Fanny and the co-respondent was named as Thomas Johnson. On her marriage to Alfred, there is no father named on her marriage certificate. Alfred and Fanny had two sons, Lewis and Julian. Decree Nisi 7 November 1876. Same lady or just huge coincidence!
well I didn't expect that I am going to put it on my family tree as unverified until I find more on that.... that is is a good find...
So the Alfred William Vowles is married to a Agnes Fanny Wilmot born 3 Feb 1851 Bristol, Gloucester, England died 15 Jun 1935 121 Hampton Road, Bristol, Gloucestershire, England. They have a child born after my Fanny Wilmot would of been married to Thomas Johnson. (Charlotte S Vowles born 1884) I'm not sure who is right here but I am confused about this. Same Birth year but different death date. ???
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Are you seeing that on a tree?
the marriage certificate has no Agnes.
the divorce papers have no Agnes
the baptisms of Lewis and Julian have no Agnes
Alfred married a second time 22 June 1878 to Agnes Fanny HART
Trees have not followed this through properly.
It is why we are always saying don't believe anything until you can work through the documentation yourself!
added
but Agnes Fanny must have been a widow. Haven't found original cert yet.
but here is birth of Purcell
VOWLES, PURCELL JOSEPH Mother's Maiden name MESSER
GRO Reference: 1880 S Quarter in BARTON REGIS Volume 06A Page 172
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Alfred William Vowles first marriage in 1871 Bristol was to your Fanny Wilmot
2 sons were born before they divorced in 1876.
He married again in 1878 to Agnes Fanny Hart and had further children to his second wife.
Agnes Fanny Hart was a widow on her marriage, father's name was Thomas Messer, accountant.
On the marriage record, Alfred Vowles is recorded "divorced from his former wife"
(Agnes Fanny Messer had married James Essex Hart in 1873 Poole)
Alfred William Vowles died in Bristol 7 Jan 1923.
Agnes Fanny Vowles died in 1935
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1871
Margaret WILLIAMS wife M. 46, wife of Commercial. b Somerset, Portishead
Ellen Williams dau. 17 b Clifton, Bristol
Alice Williams 15 b Clifton
Amy Williams 5 b St James, Bristol
so Hellen Wilmot was born 2 Jul 1853 Bristol, Gloucestershire and baptised 29 Jul 1860
Ellen Williams born 1854-ish which is close enough to be true :o
Alice Mary Wilmot born 16 JUL 1856 were as Alice Williams born 1856 :o
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\dude ///////////////// how on earth did you find this?
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Dude! ;D :D
After Neale found those baptisms I entered the forenames only as a Mother and Children and looked to see what came up in Bristol.
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From Amy Williams in the 1871 posted earlier
I wonder if this is her birth
WILMOT, AMY LARA mothers maiden name JONES
GRO Reference: 1866 J Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 84
Which does sort of tie in with the potential Fanny birth reg found earlier. In reply # 8
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Are you seeing that on a tree?
the marriage certificate has no Agnes.
the divorce papers have no Agnes
the baptisms of Lewis and Julian have no Agnes
Alfred married a second time 22 June 1878 to Ellen Williams
***Thanks for that ****
Trees have not followed this through properly.
It is why we are always saying don't believe anything until you can work through the documentation yourself!
>>> Very good point >>>> I try to do that but can't always find the needed documents. I notice something isn't right rather easily sometimes though....
added
but Agnes Fanny must have been a widow. Haven't found original cert yet.
but here is birth of Purcell
VOWLES, PURCELL JOSEPH Mother's Maiden name MESSER
GRO Reference: 1880 S Quarter in BARTON REGIS Volume 06A Page 172
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It is confusing, but the 4 girls (Fanny, Helen, Alice and Margaret) appear to have been daughters of Margaret WILLIAMS. That is how they appear in the census records for 1851 and 1861 and 71.
When she baptised them there were given the surname WILMOT.
Another child was born to Margaret in 1867 - Amy Williams
.
It is not clear where the WILMOT name comes from at this stage.
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Alfred married a second time 22 June 1878 to Ellen Williams. this is not what I posted his second wife was, as I said Agnes Fanny HART
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Can I suggest that Jason takes the time to read back through the thread and note carefully all the information that has been posted.
It may be confusing as lots of information has come through quickly.
I would also recommend Jason discontinue using the quote button (simply use REPLY). Using the quote function helps to create confusion and makes the thread difficult to follow.
(I will refrain from posting more information until Jason has had time to take in all the current detail.)
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yes Agnes Fanny HART that's right
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1881
49 Thistle Grove, Kensington
Margaret Williams widow 56 annuitant b Portishead
Amy Williams 14 b Bristol
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Not to muddy the waters further, but there is a bapt that could tie Margaret to the Wilmot name. Just a possibility?
Margaret Wilmot
Baptism Date: 1 Jan 1824
Baptism Place: Weston In Gordano, Somerset (covers the Portishead, area)
Father: William Wilmot - yeoman
Mother: Elizabeth Wilmot
Also one for Ann in 1827 (sister in 1851) same parents
Cas
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Okay I read back through it all, sorry if I caused some confusion.
I somehow got Edward Wilmot as the father of Fanny and the other three William Girls, I'm not sure how I got that.
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I was thinking that Williams was actually Margret's married name.
This being the case since all 4 girls have the last name William as well.
I don't have a problem with them being illegitimate but that would make more sense if it was one child.
So can any on find a
Margret ___?___ born 1826 Portishead, Somerset, England
Married to a
_____?_____Williams (who would be the father of the girls)
Since _____?_____ Williams isn't on the census he was either dead or gone between late 1858 early 1861. (The 1858 is because the last Daughter was born in 1859. It goes without saying that he could of been gone close to 9 months before Margaret's birth 15 July 1859
The late Baptism of the children with not father listed could mean many things not just the children were illegitimate.
-Margret could of just joined the Church to get support raising the girls as a single mom?
-Margret could of converted from one religion to another. This being because of the death of her husband with different view. She could of also divorced him over different religious views?
-She may of just picked the name Wilmot or married a person with the last name Wilmot. Then changed the last name of her daughters to match.
-This ___?_____ Williams could of also done things one wouldn't be proud of. Cheated, arrested went insane etc so Margret could of changed her and her children's names to get away from that?
and yes She could have had 4 children out of wedlock which doesn't seem likely to me
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I think I found a 1851 census for Fanny Williams and her mother Margret Wiliams miss transcribed as Marh Williams.
1851 England Census for Fanny Williams
Somerset
Bedminster
ALL
1l
page 10
Fanny is the right Age Margret is a few years younger than posted on another census though but not by much. does this make sense to anyone ?
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I think I found a 1851 census for Fanny Williams and her mother Margret Wiliams miss transcribed as
As in Reply #25
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Sometimes, in these long threads, I find it is helpful to print off the whole thing then go through with a highlighter and highlight all the facts obtained (thus removing all the chat and extraneous stuff like this post) Write it out separately and see what you are left with or missing.
Added… print button is lower right
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Thanks everyone for helping. I think I got it straight now. More or less, I think in the future I will print the thread off as suggested.
Sorry for being a bit dim ( I'm a Newbie )
I found one person on Ancestry with the Vowels sons on it and messaged them.
I also DNA matched to an American person with the last name Jaques on 23&me who's family is from England. I am wondering If Fanny and William E Jacques / Jaques had a Son?
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Jason, it is a complicated family - but very interesting. Multiple marriages and therefore changing surnames, and illegitimate births, and surnames which change without reason make it all very difficult.
Do ask where you don’t understand. We were all “newbies” once, and there is always something new to learn. Input from multiple people on this forum is extremely useful. Be very wary of taking information on public trees in Ancestry, which is quite often totally or partly incorrect.
We have made progress with your family, but I think there is more work to do. I will look further today.
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I agree, a fascinating family.
Always so much more interesting to research in these cases.
Regarding your comment about 4 apparently illegitimate births, I don't think this is at all unusual.
My own great grandmother had two illegitimate births and the 3rd child was born only 2 months before she married and looked “different” to the following 6 children!
(She, great grandmother, was in service and we have our suspicions as to who the father of at least one of the daughters was……)
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I have been looking at the Wilmot family highlighted by Cas in reply #43 .....
William WILMOT married Elizabeth WITHEY in 1812.
William born about 1789 and Elizabeth born abt 1790
William was a Yeoman / famer at Portishead.
Children baptised at Portishead / Weston in Gordano:
James WILMOT - 28 Mar 1813
William Withey WILMOT - 25 Dec 1815
Emma WILMOT - 1 Jan 1819
Elizabeth WILMOT - 1 Jan 1823
Margaret WILMOT - 1 Jan 1824 (this fits well with Margaret Williams census info)
Anne WILMOT - 2 Jan 1827 (this fits well with Ann Williams census info 1851)
Eliza WILMOT - 25 May 1829
John WILMOT - 29 Jul 1834
Edwin WILMOT - 17 Apr 1838
There are lots of Wilmot families in this area of Somerset.
There are no baptisms for a Margaret or Ann Williams in Portishead.
1841 census for the Wilmot family
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQ1V-8S6
1851 census for the Wilmot family
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGG2-9BP
Note that Margaret is not with the family in the 1841 census – this could be her using the Williams surname ….
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7MC-6KH
Has anyone found Margaret Using Wilmot surname in 1841?
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Margaret WILMOT / WILLIAMS A bit of a summary …….
Birth – appears to have been born as Margaret WILMOT, baptised 1 Jan 1824 Somerset. Parents William WILMOT (yeoman & farmer) and Elizabeth WITHEY married 1812.
1841 census – Margt Williams age 15 / 16; female servant for an insurance agent. (Bedminster, Somerset.)
1851 census – Margaret WILLIAMS married; husband away for work; born 1823 Bristol
Sister Ann born abt 1827 born 1823 Portishead, Somerset; and daughter Fanny.
1851 to 1860 – 4 illegitimate daughters born and baptised with surname WILMOT by mother Margaret WILMOT (Clifton, Bristol)
1861 census – Margaret WILLIAMS, unmarried, not employed but supporting 4 children Fanny, Ellen, Alice, Margaret and a servant, born abt 1826 Portishead, Somerset (Bristol St James)
1867 – 5th daughter Amy born. No baptismal record found yet.
1871 census – Margaret WILLIAMS, married, husband a commercial traveller away from home; supporting 3 daughters, Ellen, Alice & Amy; born abt 1825 Portishead, Somerset (St James, Clifton, Gloucestershire) Where was the daughter Margaret? Possible death 1869 age 13?
July 1871 Fanny uses surname WILMOT for 1st marriage (ended in divorce)
Jan 1877 Fanny uses surname WILMOT for 2nd marriage
1881 census – Margaret WILLIAMS widow, Annuitant, born abt 1825 Portishead, Somerset – with 5th daughter Amy (Kensington London)
Death – after 1881 - still to find
Comments – Questions (thinking out loud)
• the commercial traveller husband (no name) was never at home during the census – that’s convenient. I suspect there was never a husband, but it was more respectable to pretend there was one, than to be an un-wed mother. No marriage record that I could find.
• Why the name WILLIAMS? WILLIAMS and WILMOT are a bit similar in sound. She seems to have been using WILLIAMS from at least as early as the 1841 census – about age 16. So it makes me think the name did not come from the father of her children. Was there a split with her family? – and she did not want to be known as a WILMOT? But she wanted her children to be baptised with the correct Wilmot name. Lots of questions – no clear answers.
• How did Margaret earn an income to support 5 children, plus the odd servant in her home? She is never recorded in the census as working. Was there Wilmot family money or siblings to support her?
• Fanny, being the oldest child, knew her real surname was Wilmot. What happened to Fanny’s sisters? It would be useful to know if they retained the name Williams or reverted to Wilmot. When they married who did they record as their father?
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Has anyone found Margaret Using Wilmot surname in 1841?
I haven’t.
Whose birth is this?
WILLIAMS, MARY JANE WILMOT
GRO Reference: 1859 D Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 91
Margaret Junior was born 15 July 1859 according to the baptism notes.
Is Mary Jane how Margaret was registered, or is there another Williams Wilmot coupling to look for?
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Interesting find. Maybe Margaret junior was Mary Jane.
That registration looks more promising than the others suggested for other daughters.
The birth registrations found so far, are still puzzling to me.
EDIT - on second look, it might be another family. There is a Clara Williams in 1862 born with a Wilmot mother, and an Albert in 1864.
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yes, I've just found them too. Oh well, it was a good idea ;D
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Slightly off topic Lewis Edward Vowles one of Fanny's sons from the first marriage married
Harriet Ann Widdowson
Born 1869 • Bulwell Forest, Nottinghamshire, England.
Died ABT. 1956 • Durban, Natal, South Africa
Marriage April 2, 1902 St. Mary's, Bulwell, Nottinghamshire, England
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can anyone see the following WILLIAMS
Mary Jane b 1859
Clara b 1862
Albert b 1864
in 1871?
or a baptism?
or a death?
I can't help feeling, with absolutely no evidence, that Amy b 1866 slots in after them very nicely.
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Birth
WILLIAMS, ALBERT WILMOT
GRO Reference: 1864 S Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 88
Death
WILLIAMS, ALBERT 1
GRO Reference: 1866 M Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 85
MORE BIRTHS - I don't think this is our Williams family
WILLIAMS, ALBERT WILMOT
GRO Reference: 1869 D Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 100
WILLIAMS, JOHN WILMOT
GRO Reference: 1872 J Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 106
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Ellen & Alice still alive in 1875, as Wilmot and unmarried.
Stroud News and Gloucestershire Advertiser 29 January 1875
Concert - On Tuesday evening a concert was given by Mr Alfred Vowles at the Hall. The programme which was a carefully selected one, was carried out in a manner that did credit to the ability of those ladies and gentlemen who took part in the vocal selctons; and the instrumental music was so skilfully rendered that it received from the hands of the appreciative audience present as much encouragement as the other items.
The programme opened with an organ overture by Mr. W. H. Cox. A trio “The Daisy’ was charmingly rendered by Miss Alice Wilmot, Mrs Alfred Vowles and Mr Theodore Hook. Miss Ellen Wilmot sang the serenade, “Star of my Night” with much sweetness and was loudly applauded. In the duet “Oh, Albion” Mr Theodore Hook and Mr Bevan narrowly escaped an encore. Mrs Alfred Vowles sang “Pack clouds away” in a very superior manner, and was ably accompanied with clarionet obligate by Mr W.H.Cox. The duet “ I heard a voice in the tranquil night” was sang charmingly by the Misses Alice and Ellen Wilmot…..
another concert with the same cast (without W.H.Cox) later that year
27 April 1875 - Western Daily Press - Bristol, Bristol, England
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What a nice little concert. The surname Wilmot in use is interesting
Rest of post deleted , possibly incorrect detail for that marriage.
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deleted - doesn't make sense now Neale has deleted his post :)
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Sorry!! I checked the birth year and there was another Ellen Wilmot birth in 1863, not 1853. So i know that it was not the correct marriage, hence the delete.
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The second son of Fanny WILMOT and Alfred William VOWLES –
Julian VOWLES (occupation: Engineer)
- Baptised 16 Oct 1874 Bristol
- Emigrated to Cape Town, South Africa about 1896
- Died 9th Feb 1958 Borrowdale, South Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) age 83
- Married Klerksdorp south Africa about 1909 to Mary Ellen DARLINGTON (b.22 Jan 1878 England; d. 9 Sep 1964 Sth Africa)
Children:
• Julian Darlington VOWLES born 28 Mar 1913 Klerksdorp, Transvaal, Sth Africa; died 3 May 2000 Ceres Cape Province, Sth Africa; Divorced from 1st wife; 2nd marriage 1950 to Sheila MacDonald PHILLIPS, nee FINDLAY. (2 sons born)
• Hilary Jocelyn VOWLES born 1920; married 14 Jan 1943 King William’s Town, Cape Province to Noel Windell CALLAGHAN (son born 1952)
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Lewis Edward Vowles one of Fanny's sons from the first marriage married
Harriet Ann Widdowson
Born 1869 • Bulwell Forest, Nottinghamshire, England.
Died ABT. 1956 • Durban, Natal, South Africa
Marriage April 2, 1902 St. Mary's, Bulwell, Nottinghamshire, England
Adding a little more information .....
Lewis Edward VOWLES (occupation: Master Mariner)
- Died 15 June 1947 Umtali, South Rhodesia (age 75)
- Wife Harriett Ann WIDDOWSON died 12 Nov 1944
Children:
• Rodney Edwin VOWLES born 1905 Durban, Sth Africa; died 4 Feb 1974 Umtali Rhodesia
• Eric VOWLES born 27 Mar 1907 Durban Sth Africa; d. 1994 Durban
• Cyril Sydney VOWLES born 1909; died 18 Dec 1951 Johannesburg; married 30 May 1940 Durban to Gwendoline Ada SMITH (2 children born)
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Cyril S Vowles m Olive B A Parsons. Jun qtr 1928 Wells RD
Volume Number5c
Page number972
Is this another marriage for Cyril or someone withe the same name (it is in England not Africa)
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You would need to purchase that marriage certificate to see what it says. He would have been young at 19 years. It is probably the marriage of Cyril Simon Vowles born 1906, who lived in Yeovil. See the 1939 register.
Cyril Sydney Vowles 1940 marriage record in Durban, Sth Africa records him as a bachelor. It can be found on FamilySearch.
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okay, so for Edward Wilmot the father that may or may not of married Margaret Williams.
Does anyone have an Idea of who he was or if he actually was the father of all the girls???
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I am trying also to find Margaret Williams in the 1841 census
I found one Margaret Williams about the right age (15) in somerset
living with a Mary Bobbs (who is 25)
Piece: 376
Book: 1
Folio: 9
Page Number: 13
yet she is one of like +50 people with that name in England at the right age at that time and have no idea how to tell which one is is the right one??? can anyone help with this?
I have that my Margaret Williams was born about 1825 • Portishead, Somerset, England
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See replies 52 and 53 for Margaret’s birth details and where she is in the census, including 1841.
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Have you got this birth registration? (reply #8)
JONES, FANNY WIMOT Mother: WILMOT
GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in BEDMINSTER Volume 11 Page 70
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thanks.
I find it strange that Margret after having Fanny is living with her sister Ann in Bedminster, Bristol, Gloucestershire, England. All of them are using the last name Williams I finally get peoples point when they say she probably had the child out of wedlock.
Both her and her daughter Fanny seem to freely change their last name at will.
As was found in this forum, Fanny (my 2x great grandmother) and Her Daughter Ruby (my great Grandmother) were living with William Edward Jaques in 1891. Although as far as I can tell Fanny Never married William. Since in William Jaques probate in 1891 and the Census she was listed as Fanny Johnson (her 2nd husbands last name) When Fanny married her 4th Husband and well know author of the time Arthur William Marchmont she married with the last name Jaques. Jaques is the name Ruby told my mom (Terry, her granddaughter) was her moms Fanny's last name. Fanny Jaques is also listed as the wife of Arthur William Marchmont on his biography online.
Also I seemed to have missed Thomas Johnson's death date? is that anywhere? it would of be before 1891 but after 1881 unless they divorced???
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Have you got this birth registration? (reply #8)
JONES, FANNY WIMOT Mother: WILMOT
GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in BEDMINSTER Volume 11 Page 70
You order them from here.
Just the PDF
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
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Also I seemed to have missed Thomas Johnson's death date? is that anywhere? it would of be before 1891 but after 1881 unless they divorced???
I don’t think you can assume he died before 1891. Since Fanny never married Jacques, it is possible this was because she was still married to Johnson, and he was still alive.
ADDED – However, since he does not appear in the 1891 census (5th Aprl), it is possible that this is his death.
JOHNSON, THOMAS Age 44
GRO Reference: 1891 M Quarter in PRESCOT Volume 08B Page 554
(Burial Date: 13 Mar 1891)
Perhaps she planned to then marry William Jacques, but he died (Oct 1891) before that could happen. But she was then free to marry Arthur Marchmont in Apr 1892.
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Have you got this birth registration? (reply #8)
JONES, FANNY WIMOT Mother: WILMOT
GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in BEDMINSTER Volume 11 Page 70
You order them from here. Just the PDF
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
This looks like birth rego of Fanny's sister.
JONES, ALICE MARY Mother: WILMOT
GRO Reference: 1857 M Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 72
If it was my family I would want to order the birth registrations to see what information is contained about father and mother.
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Did we rule out my reply #36?
WILMOT, AMY LARA JONES
GRO Reference: 1866 J Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 84
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Did we rule out my reply #36?
I didn’t. :) I don’t think we can rule it out.
It is a shame we never found a baptism for Amy, so we cannot be sure when she was born. With the other 4 girls, we have their dates of birth.
I think if it was my family i would get the birth registration for the Fanny Wilmot Jones posted above, and see what it says. It may open up other avenues for research, or show that it is the wrong family. Either way it would be progress.
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I was wondering if you ordered any of those Birth certificates Jason?
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I have not yet ordered the cert. I am working on multiple lines and bouncing around a bit. Once I hit more of a dead end I will come back to it. (Canadian money doesn't go very far in England)
It gets a bit expensive to order a bunch of things at the moment but it may be a good idea to do so anyway.
I am actively researching Ruby and Alfred Since I was able to find a load of information on them
Ruby Ingram Fortt nee Johnson. Ruby was my mothers Grandmother and lived near her for some time, so she has personal knowledge. One thing my mom did say was Ruby had a religious shrine at her house and people would come to her house every other Sunday for some service. I don't know what to make of that yet.
I have also tracked down many newspaper articles on her from Bath somerset. I even found a picture. She is always known As Mrs A.H. Fortt in the paper (Alfred Herbert Fortt is her husband)
Ruby did many plays with the Bath operatic society. Often acting along side Alfred's cousins.
Alfred was also know as Major Fortt or Mr A.H. Fortt and into many things (military, politics, golf club, Free masons, or the many Fortt businesses etc.)
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I have done a bit of work on this area of my tree.
I haven't ordered any certs yet. I have been working on my tree for a year and a half and always have something to find. When I hit a stand still in a few yeas I will start ordering certs.
Anyway
I was wondering if anyone knows where I can order the minutes of an old court case. The case that led to the annulment of the marriage between my 2x great grandmother Fanny and her husband Alfred William Vowles? I have an image of the title page of the minutes case number etc. it became publicly available in 1977.
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I have found that Ruby Johnson for a time went by the name Ruby Jaques as her stage name in the bath operatic society.
later Ruby Fortt nee Johnson stated a a Cult called the Fellowship of the Golden Triangle. Ruby in the Cult went by the Name Diana (which strangely enough was my Aunts name)
She was the High priestess in this group.
I found one book and two new articles on the cult I was wondering if someone can help me find out anything more?
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I also found that Ruby and Alfred Fortt In 1924 moved to Lymington, Hampshire, England where they had a Tea Room.(I think it was called Fortt (Lymington) Ltd.)
I found that interesting because down the street were my other Great Grandparents.
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I have done a bit of work on this area of my tree.
I haven't ordered any certs yet. I have been working on my tree for a year and a half and always have something to find. When I hit a stand still in a few yeas I will start ordering certs.
Anyway
I was wondering if anyone knows where I can order the minutes of an old court case. The case that led to the annulment of the marriage between my 2x great grandmother Fanny and her husband Alfred William Vowles? I have an image of the title page of the minutes case number etc. it became publicly available in 1977.
The full divorce papers are on Ancestry.
Added… I think it is a mistake not getting the certs for your direct ancestors. It is surprisingly easy to go off track, even though it all seems quite clear and may well be.
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so in regards to finding my 3rd great grandfather
Margaret Wilmott or Williams
1824–
BIRTH 1824 • Weston in Gordano, Somerset, England
DEATH Unknown
husband or father of her children
maybe
Edward Wilmott
Birth 1830 Somerset, England, United Kingdom
on family search his number is LKBY-2DV
in 1841 a document say he was living at
Clapton in Gordano, Somerset, England, United Kingdom (Clapton Black Horse Inn)
which is 6 min away from where Margaret was born and my of been living
what do people think?
I do have Margaret's parents as
William Wilmott
B:1789 Walton in Gordano, Somerset, England
D:1850 Church Farm, Woodside, Walton in Gordano, Somerset, England
and
Elizabeth WITHEY
B:1790 Nailsea, Somerset, England
D:1879 Arno's Vale, Somerset, England
at the moment
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Have you got this birth registration? (reply #8)
JONES, FANNY WIMOT Mother: WILMOT
GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in BEDMINSTER Volume 11 Page 70
You order them from here. Just the PDF
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
This looks like birth rego of Fanny's sister.
JONES, ALICE MARY Mother: WILMOT
GRO Reference: 1857 M Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 72
If it was my family I would want to order the birth registrations to see what information is contained about father and mother.
Feeling like a stuck record here.
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I am not sure I even have the information to order the record if I wanted to...
this may or may not be her...
Holy Trinity, (this might be her gro record not for sure) WILLIAMS, FANNY WILLIAMS GRO Reference: 1850 M Quarter in PETERBOROUGH Volume 15 Page 350
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BIRTH CERTIFICATES
JONES, FANNY WIMOT Mother: WILMOT
GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in BEDMINSTER Volume 11 Page 70
You order them from here. Just the PDF
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
This looks like birth rego of Fanny's sister.
JONES, ALICE MARY Mother: WILMOT
GRO Reference: 1857 M Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 72
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I wouldn't be surprised to seen Ingram last name somewhere around here. Miriam Daughter Ruby's middle name is Ingram (a British surname) I have 33 DNA matches to that last name that thus far appears nowhere on my tree.
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BIRTH CERTIFICATES
JONES, FANNY WIMOT Mother: WILMOT
GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in BEDMINSTER Volume 11 Page 70
You order them from here. Just the PDF
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
This looks like birth rego of Fanny's sister.
JONES, ALICE MARY Mother: WILMOT
GRO Reference: 1857 M Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 72
Jason, have you taken note of the fact that these birth entries can now be ordered as a jpeg file for just £2.50?
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last time I looked it was it was about $20. I am not from the UK. I am glad the price went down. I have two certs I need to buy in the near future. These my last 4 3x great grandparents on my tree
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I am not from the UK. I am glad the price went down. I have two certs I need to buy in the near future. These my last 4 3x great grandparents on my tree
Nor are many of us. When you do buy Fanny’s birth cert (references in previous posts) PLEASE post the details. Enquiring minds want to know 😀.
Ordering the jpeg is also instant, so it is great. (There are limitations to the years this is available, but you are lucky, both those births fall within the period.)
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I will post the info on the document once i get it. I am in the middle of a big research project, on another matter at the moment but I will get around to it. (no worries I will share the info).
If someone has any Idea about how to find info on "the fellowship of the golden triangle" Fanny's daughter Ruby ran under the name Diana that would be great. I found two News paper clippings and a book she gave my deceased Grandfather. I was told it was a fair sized cult that was out of the England, the Netherlands and Northern Africa. Ruby has said to of wrote books papers courses news letters etc. I can't find much about it online.
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So, I see on another thread you have your DNA results.
Did it throw up anything interesting on the Wilmot line.
Have you bought any of those birth certs now they are only £2.50.
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I haven't looked much at this line for awhile. In the last couple of days I have resolved some other unrelated major brick walls on my tree. This is now my only family line that I haven't got traced back to 4x great grandparents.
I have Fanny last name as "Williams" unverified at the moment.
since this Fanny in the GRO has Wilmot name as a middle name (last name Jones) it is a good sign that it may be her. I haven't got the document since I'm not sure that the document is or isn't her (a bit confused on that)
If i get the document it still wont prove the relation.
I am going to create a floating (disconnected tree) on that Fanny's genetic family to see if I can find a living person to compare DNA to. I have just resolved three family lines doing this so hopefully it works here.
I have attached a photo of Fanny's Daughter Ruby I have. (My parents have the glass slide of this photo)
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I found a Fanny Jones in the 1861 census is not living with her family at 10 years old. She is listed as a Nurse Child (Nurse).
Household schedule number 81
Piece 1740
Folio 90
Page number 33
Living in the same house is a lodger by the name of Joseph Vowels.
If this is the right Fanny Vowels is the last name of my Fanny's first husband. so it is a good sign. Im not sure if this is the Fanny Wilmot Jones though???
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I have found a 1851 census that could be her with her family in Bristol
Household schedule number 184
Piece 1954
Folio 297
Page number 47
the mothers name is Susan nee Llewellin not Margret Wilmot
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1851 reply#25
1861 reply # 22 & 24
(Page 3 of this thread)
and please review replies #52 & 53
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Okay so I took a look at the GRO and finally caught on to what was being said about the Jones birth name mother Wilmot
I also found a male child with the same combination of names in the right location And Amy with a different father
As likely posted before
JONES, ALICE MARY mother WILMOT
GRO Reference: 1857 M Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 72
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JONES, FANNY WIMOT mother WILMOT
GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in BEDMINSTER Volume 11 Page 70
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JONES, ELLEN WILMOT mother WILMOT
GRO Reference: 1853 S Quarter in BEDMINSTER Volume 05C Page 699
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JONES, MARGARET WILMOT mother WILMOT
GRO Reference: 1859 S Quarter in BRISTOL Volume 06A Page 44
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JONES, ALBERT EDWARD WILMOT mother WILMOT
GRO Reference: 1862 M Quarter in BRISTOL Volume 06A Page 46
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forgive me if this has been said before. I am just put it all together in my mind.
-- This indicates to me that Margret's birth name is Wilmot married someone last name
Jones. (likely around 1850). They had 4 daughters and 1 son together.
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Something happened with Mr Jones.
(probably not good) between late 1861 -1865 or the Other option is Margret and Mr Jones got divorced.
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Margret nee Wilmot now Jones gets together with a Mr Williams
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and has Amy Williams in 1865
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I just fixed up my tree the information got changed over the year. I just read through the posts again and sorted it out. I think.
I bought a digital image of Fanny's birth cert if it comes to my email in the next few days I will post if it has a fathers name on it.
thanks again for everyones help
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I am quite sure the censuses detailed in Neale1961’s summaries at replies 52 and 53 are the correct ones
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I don’t think Margaret Wilmot ever married anyone.
She is using Williams as early as 1851 when Fanny is 2 mths old.
The girls are baptised as Wilmot with no father named in the baptisms
Yet she must have faked a husband for the birth entries to be the way they are.
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as for , ALBERT EDWARD WILMOT JONES he died young
Name Albert Edward Wilmot Jones
Age 1
Birth Date abt 1862
Death Date abt 1863
Burial Date 28 Jan 1863
Burial Place Wycliffe Church, Totterdown, Gloucestershire
Parish as it Appears Wycliffe Church, Totterdown
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JONES, ALBERT EDWARD WILMOT mother WILMOT
GRO Reference: 1862 M Quarter in BRISTOL Volume 06A Page 46
This son died aged 1 in 1863. His death registration is available from GRO.
WILLIAMS, AMY mother JONES
GRO Reference: 1865 J Quarter in CARDIFF Volume 11A Page 238
This is a completely different family and in a completely different place. Nothing to do with Wilmot family.
This indicates to me that Margret's birth name is Wilmot married someone last name
Jones. (likely around 1850).
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Something happened with Mr Jones.
(probably not good) between late 1861 -1865 or the Other option is Margret and Mr Jones got divorced.
The whole point in getting the birth certificates is to try to identify the JONES, so you might take the enquiry further. You will not know until you have those certificates.
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I am quite sure the censuses detailed in Neale1961’s summaries at replies 52 and 53 are the correct ones
Many things still need to be sorted out here
-This still is possible that she never married
-it is possible the 1841 / 1851 census that was found is correct and she moved a town over when she got pregnant and changed her last name to Williams.
-she could of been an escort and had the Children that way? She had 6 kids somehow
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-She could of also been married to a Mr Jones and left him while pregnant with Amy. She then could of changed her last name to Williams like she did in the mentioned Censuses.
-or Mr Williams could of been a real person
-It is also possible that the marriage cert just hasn't been found yet.
-It is possible that she was married in a different country. I have seen that before on my tree.
Either way it is a rather complex family structure.
-I still would like to find Margaret Wilmot's parents it still wouldn't surprise me if her dad was an Edward Wilmot.
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-I still would like to find Margaret Wilmot's parents it still wouldn't surprise me if her dad was an Edward Wilmot.
Jason, please go back and re-read the information contained in this long thread.
Margaret's Wilmot's parents have been identified.
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I have bought the cert for Fanny and will see if it has a fathers name one it.
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Did you not buy the £2.50 instant digital image?
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Ok just figure it out the Cert says her father was Edward Jones
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So that’s good.
It confirms that is your Fanny (same address as 1851 census and same occupation for the non existent husband)
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I thought this could be a possible marriage
Mar 1851
Do you have an Edward Jones born in England around the 1820's on your tree? Bristol volume 11 page 162
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Anna Chapman
Gender Female
Age 26
Birth Date abt 1825
Marriage Date 22 Mar 1851
Marriage Place Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Father
John Chapman
Spouse
Edward Jones
so not this one
so with thousands of Edward Jones in England I guess this is a dead end even if it is true
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So glad you got that birth certificate, Jason.
I think that Margaret Wilmot was probably never married to Edward Jones. I certainly haven’t found a suitable marriage record yet.
Had she been legally married, the children would have been baptised with the surname Jones (rather than Wilmot), and she would have appeared in the census as Margaret Jones (rather than Williams).
2 possible reasons I can think of:-
1/ Edward Jones was just a made-up name. He didn’t exist. ( It would be useful to know who the father is on some of the other birth certificates.)
2/ Edward Jones was real, but not able to marry Margaret, because he was already married, and possibly had a family elsewhere. In the census, Margaret says her husband is a commercial traveller away on work, but we never actually see them together. This means that he and Margaret maybe were carrying on an extra marital affair. Quite easy for him to do if he really was a commercial traveller.
I am inclined to think that he did exist, since someone was supporting Margaret and her children financially. She never appears in the census as employed, and we know the daughters were very well educated, with private music lessons included. Someone had to be paying for all that. So was Mr. Jones trading in some high price, luxury commodity?
With a surname like Jones and the close proximity of Bristol (Clifton and Bedminster) to Wales, I would not be surprised to find that he was Welsh. I think you would now look to the 1851 and 1861 census records to see if you can find a commercial traveller named Edward Jones.
The other thing that I will mention is that Margaret doesn’t use either her married surname Jones or her maiden surname Wilmot in the census records. One gets the impression that she wanted to hide from something / someone. This may have just been her wanting to keep the Wilmot name away from all the gossip associated with affairs, unmarried mothers, and illegitimate children, etc.
We know Margaret’s father was a yeoman / farmer. As a Yeoman he would have owned his own land (not a tenant farmer), so would have been a higher class than the labouring class, and maybe the good Wilmot name had to be hidden and protected from disgrace. Wilmot to Williams is an easy change.
Just my thoughts, so far.....
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Hypothetical thought on options
1. I would think that since she put Jones as the last name on all her children that she would put Edward Jones as the father. Even if Edward Jones never exist. She seemed to be able to change her name whenever it seemed convenient. It would be convenient to put the same fathers name down even if she was having an affair with him or somebody else. The only way to prove if each child had a different biological father is through solid records and DNA through decedents.
2. If Edward Jones did exist, it would be hard to track down the right one. An unbelievably large amount of people had that name. I am still going to look. If Edward Jones is a made up father name it would be hard to prove the negative.
3. Yes they seemed to be well off financially. Margaret's daughter Fanny married well multiple time. Fanny's Daughter Ruby married into the upper middle class Fortt Family out of bath. They all seemed to have money.
I found a Jones family (no Edward)
on the
1851 England Census
Somerset
Yatton
ALL 5a page 11 and another Jones man on page 9
this is where Margret family where at the time
it say they where agricultural laborious possibly working on the Wilmot Land????
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Possible Jones father of Ruby in the area Margrets Parents lived although this is not likely
I went through the 28 pages of this census
1851 census Somerset Yatton 5a page 11
Samuel Jones age 34? single Labor
next door to Samuel Jones is
Thomas Jones age 31? married to a Sarah with three young kids (agricultural laborer)
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1851 census Somerset Yatton 5a page 9
we have a married man
Samuel Jones age 39
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so is this my complicated Margret ???
census 1881
Registration district Kensington
Sub registration district Brompton
ED, institution, or vessel 9
Neighbours View others on page
Piece 45
Folio 90
Page number 9
on this census we have a Amy
WILMOT, AMY LARA mother JONES
GRO Reference: 1866 J Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 84
not
WILLIAMS, AMY JONES
GRO Reference: 1865 J Quarter in CARDIFF Volume 11A Page 238
I was a bit confused on that
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As per replies #42 & #53
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Possible birth registration for last daughter born to Margaret Wilmot (as previously posted)
WILMOT, AMY LARA mothers maiden name JONES
GRO Reference: 1866 J Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 84
Why is it not registered in the same way as the other children?
Not the daughter of Edward Jones?
Knowing the detail of that birth cert might give you a clue to whether Edward Jones was still around at that point.
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Anyway I have traced a DNA match with and Edward Jones from Wales born around the 1820's on their tree. They have the right range of cM per this relationship. I will post what they send me if it looks promising.
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As for Amy Wilmot
I would like to see if she got married
Between 1881 onward the BMD has 5 Amy Wilmot marriages but these three are the most likely if she did get married
Marriages Jun 1893
Wilmot Amy Bedford 3b 677
Marriages Dec 1898
Wilmot Amy Fulham 1a 434
Marriages Sep 1901
WILMOT Amy Gainsbro' 7a 1587
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As for Amy Wilmot
I would like to see if she got married
Marriages Dec 1898
Wilmot Amy Fulham 1a 434
Age 28, so birth abt 1870
Father named as Samuel Wilmot a joiner, witnesses Eliza & George William VALLANCE
The other two seem unlikely,
If she married, she may well have married as Williams.
More to the point. When did Margeret Wilmot/Williams die? Blowed if I can identify her death
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The daughters could have married under the name Willams, Wilmot / Wilmott or even Jones (Who should be their fathers last name) or just made up another name.
My 2 x great grandmother is more or less complete and married under her Wilmot name in her 1st marriage and had 4 partners in total.
So I don't know who or if
Hellen and Margaret (jr) or Alice married?
I think this Alice Died in 1870 too young to be married.
What happed to Hellen after the 1871 census?
What happened to Margaret (jr) after 1861?
When
Margaret (snr) Died?
no perfect death match to her last name Wilmot
two close ones though
Deaths Mar 1897 Wilmot Margaret 77 Nantwich 8a 251 born in 1820
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Deaths Mar 1898 Wilmot Margaret 78 Kensington 1a 158 born in 1820
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close to 6000 Marget Williams Deaths so if she died under that name who knows???
in Bristal these are the most likely deaths under the William Name (she was morn in 1824)
Deaths Dec 1886 Williams Margaret age 61 Bristol 6a 41 born 1825
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Deaths Dec 1904 Williams Margaret age 78 Bristol 6a 160 born 1826
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Deaths Sep 1905 Williams Margaret 79 Bristol 6a 53 born 1826
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Deaths Mar 1912 Williams Margaret 87 Bristol 6a 153 born 1825
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Ellen & Alice still alive in 1875, as Wilmot and unmarried.
Stroud News and Gloucestershire Advertiser 29 January 1875
Concert - On Tuesday evening a concert was given by Mr Alfred Vowles at the Hall. The programme which was a carefully selected one, was carried out in a manner that did credit to the ability of those ladies and gentlemen who took part in the vocal selctons; and the instrumental music was so skilfully rendered that it received from the hands of the appreciative audience present as much encouragement as the other items.
The programme opened with an organ overture by Mr. W. H. Cox. A trio “The Daisy’ was charmingly rendered by Miss Alice Wilmot, Mrs Alfred Vowles and Mr Theodore Hook. Miss Ellen Wilmot sang the serenade, “Star of my Night” with much sweetness and was loudly applauded. In the duet “Oh, Albion” Mr Theodore Hook and Mr Bevan narrowly escaped an encore. Mrs Alfred Vowles sang “Pack clouds away” in a very superior manner, and was ably accompanied with clarionet obligate by Mr W.H.Cox. The duet “ I heard a voice in the tranquil night” was sang charmingly by the Misses Alice and Ellen Wilmot…..
another concert with the same cast (without W.H.Cox) later that year
27 April 1875 - Western Daily Press - Bristol, Bristol, England
Ellen/Helen & Alice were both alive in April 1875 using the name WILMOT
Alice is not the 1870 death.
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ok, I keep on getting tripped up by this death reg. It is the same first middle and last name Alice was baptized under. Also same birth year
Alice Mary Willmott
Death Date Jun 1870
Inferred Death Place Gloucestershire, United Kingdom
Volume 6a
Page 63
I guess it is a different person
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Birth 1857 Clifton
Alice Mary Willmott mmn Morgan
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I got on the newspaper site and found another concert that Ellen, Alice and William did
Western Daily Press
27 Apr 1875, Tue ·Page 3
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I got on the newspaper site and found another concert that Ellen, Alice and William did
Western Daily Press
27 Apr 1875, Tue ·Page 3
Yes, this concert has already been posted.
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Margaret born 15 July 1859
Appears in 1861 census but not in 1871 census
As previously suggested - a possible death – you would need to purchase death certificate to know.
Age does not seem quite right.
WILLIAMS, MARGARET Age 13
GRO Reference: 1869 J Quarter in BRISTOL Volume 06A Page 35
Non-conformist Burial - May 1869 - in Lewins Mead Burial Ground (Brunswick square)
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Name Margaret Jones
Gender Female
Marriage Age 28
Event Type Marriage
Birth Date abt 1857
Marriage Date 10 Jun 1885
Marriage Place Leckhampton, St Philip and St James, Gloucestershire, England
Parish as it Appears Leckhampton
Father Edward Jones
Spouse Eli Bailey
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I found this which might be a marriage for Margaret (jr). She was born with the last name Jones, so likely the same father as Fanny, Edward Jones. So Father match, birth name match, next city over from Bristal but 2 years different in age. So another unknown.
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That Margaret Jones was born in Herefordshire, the daughter of Edward Jones a farmer. She is with her family in the census records before her marriage. This is not your family.
Your Margaret is probably deceased before 1871.
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Ok Neale, I finally did something right.
I contacted roughly 25 living DNA matches with Vowles last names on their tree.
Out of all those people I only found one person who's grandfather was,
Julian Vowles
B:1874 Clifton, Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
D:9 Feb 1958 Borrowdale, Cumberland, England
(Julian is the son of Fanny for those who haven't read this full thread)
I will call Julian's grandson who is living (X) in this post.
Julian death date was incorrect to what was posted on everyone's trees online. He died back in England not Africa.
All this living person knew of Ruby who would be his and my great grandmother is that Alfred Vowles and Fanny divorced. His past down family story was that since they were very religious after Alfred Vowles and Fanny (#1) Divorced, they never spoke of Fanny (#1) again.
Fanny and Alfreds kids Julian and Lewis, my great granduncles ended up in South Africa.
Alfred's dad William Gibbons Vowles manufactured Church organs out of Bristal, Julian and Lewis seemed to of gone down to south Africa to install Organs in the Churches down there.
(x) Stated in a Email to me
"Fanny’s mother was Margaret (born around 1830) and she had three sisters Amy, Alice and Ellen of whom only Fanny and Ellen had children. My father was told by Lewis’s wife Harriet and his mother that there was a Dutton in the family heritage. Was Margaret Jones a Dutton? "
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Image is of Lewis Vowles given to me by (x) a living decendent of Julian, Lewis's brother.
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So, I have made movement on this
Margaret Wilmot daughter Amy also has Edward Jones listed as her father on her birth cert. Which Edward Jones is another big issue
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Margaret Wilmot Daughters
Hellen (who actually did go by both Ellen and Nellie as nick names) and Alice
immigrated to New Jersey, USA
Hellen did get married to Charles Turrian in New York in 1889
I have all their Children plus their spouses and children.
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Alice seems to be using the Jones Last name
Alice married Francis Sylvestre Gaillard in France before moving to New Jersey
they had 2 children. One being Oscar F Gaillard who died in the battle of Somme.
Their son below I have his children and grandchildren down to living people
Mario Edward Gaillard
B:12 Aug 1884 Strand, London, England
D:6 Sep 1936 Kings, New York, USA
GAILLARD, MARIO EDWARD Mother's Maiden Surname: JONES
GRO Reference: 1884 S Quarter in STRAND Volume 01B Page 645
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Alfred's dad William Gibbons Vowles manufactured Church organs out of Bristal, Julian and Lewis seemed to of gone down to south Africa to install Organs in the Churches down there.
I have just reached for a standard work on the pipe organ, which, in a summary of 18th & 19th cent. English builders says:
"Brice Seede [was] a Bristol organ-builder of much repute in the middle of the eighteenth century. His successors were Richard Seede (c. 1787); John Smith (c. 1820), one of the first to make 32-ft pedal stops in English organs; Joseph Munday (c. 1836) and W. G. Vowles, the head of a distinguished firm of organ-builders. (An example of their work was found in the Chapel of Mansfield College, Oxford.)"
The book is: Sumner, William Leslie; The Organ, its evolution, principles of construction and use. 4th ed. Macdonald, 1973. 035604162X (Page 234)
The British Institute of Organ Studies has some relevant articles published in their journal but the online index is not complete, may be more to find. https://bios.org.uk/publications/index.php
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Jason, you’ve been busy. Good to see some progress.
Yes, Helen, Ellen and Nell are just variations on the same name.
Some interesting things to note:-
Nellie Wilmott married in Washington (not New York) and it might be interesting to see that record to see what info she gives about her father.
Ellen calls herself WILMOTT on her children’s birth records.
But when her son Gaston Turrian married in 1927 (New York) he named his mother as Ellen JONES.
This is the TURRIAN family in New Jersey by 1900. Living next door is Alice and her GAILLARD family. Both husbands are “artists”.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M9NV-WF6
Alice married in 1881 Marylebone under the name Alice Mary JONES, and named her father Edward JONES, occupation miller.
Alice’s second son, Oscar Gaillard was born in New Jersey 1893 with his mother as Alice JONES.
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Hi Jason
Mckha489 and I have been working behind the scenes / offline to try to solve your Wilmott – Williams – Jones conundrum. I have been given the task of "writing it up". :)
We believe we have made some progress, but you will need to purchase certificates to confirm everything, and to take further steps.
Starting with this census ………..
1881 census 10 Berkeley place
Edward JONES, Head, 71, widower, Baker, born Bristol
Marion Williams 42 Housekeeper
Emma Williams 32 servant
Ellen WILLIAMS 26 visitor, artist, born Somerset (This will be your Helen / Ellen Wilmott/ Williams)
Jane Smith 27 servant
Elizabeth WILMOTT, 64, nurse, born Portishead (This will be a sister to your Margaret Wilmott)
-------------------
That was the last census for Edward Jones, but it seems he married your Margaret Wilmot at last.
Marriage 1881 Barton Regis, Gloucestershire
Edward JONES to Margaret WILMOTT
Dec qtr 1881 Barton Regis 6a 380
(You will need this certificate to confirm details)
--------------
A few years later, Edward died, and his Will should show who inherited what.
Edward JONES death 1883 Barton Regis
JONES, EDWARD Age 73
GRO Reference: 1883 M Quarter in BARTON REGIS Volume 06A Page 48
The will of Edward Jones late of Berkeley place Clifton in the City and County of Bristol, Baker who died 24 February 1883 at Berkeley place as proved at Bristol by Margaret Jones of Berkeley place, Widow, the Relict the sole Executrix. £2375 13s 2d
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The following year, Margaret died leaving another Will, which you would need to purchase to know what was inherited by her daughters.
Margaret JONES death 1884 Barton Regis
JONES, MARGARET Age 60
GRO Reference: 1884 S Quarter in BARTON REGIS Volume 06A Page 99
30 October [1884] The will with two Codicils of Margaret Jones late of 43 Whiteladies road Clifton in the City and County of Bristol Widow who died 27 September at 43 Whiteladies road was proved at Bristol by William Kingdon Thomas of 16 Berkeley place Clifton House Decorator and William Henry Morgan of Clare street Bristol, Stationer two of the Executors
£2578 4s 6d
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With the marriage and then death of Margaret, we can now understand why she was last seen in the 1881 census, but not found with a death under the surname Wilmott or Williams. She died as Margaret Jones.
The 1881 marriage also explains the uptake of the surname JONES by the daughters in the 1880s.
Monies left in the 2 Wills may explain how the girls managed to travel off to France and America to study art and singing, etc.
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You will need to purchase some records to prove and confirm all this. None of them are costly.
- The marriage record for Edward to Margaret.
- The 2 death certificates, and the 2 wills of both Edward Jones and Margaret Jones.
Please ask if you have questions, or cannot follow what I have posted above.
Mckha489 and I are looking forward to hearing about the information the various certificates contain. :)
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A BIT MORE ABOUT EDWARD JONES
1841 census Berkeley Place - Edward Jones (occupation Baker)
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14c15cf4040b9d6ec3532c/edwd-jones-1841-gloucestershire-barton-regis-1810-?locale=en
1851 census Berkeley Place - Edward Jones (occupation Baker)
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/6260962cf493fde51f24fbb1/edward-jones-1851-gloucestershire-clifton-1810-?locale=en
1861 census Berkeley Place - Edward Jones (Baker employing 8 men, 3 boys)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7VK-JKL
1871 census 10 Berkeley place - Edward Jones (Baker employing 8 men, 3 boys)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5RK-BH8
He was running a large and successful / busy bakery business employing 8 men and 3 boys
You will also find Edward Jones (Baker) of Berkeley Place, Bristol in the Street and trade directories of the time.
It doesn’t look like Edward had children to his first wife Mary, before she died sometime between 1841 and 1851.
I would say this was his first marriage:
22 Jan 1833 St John Bedminster, Bristol
Edward JONES (bachelor) to Mary WITHEY (Spinster)
Both of this parish, both sign their names.
ADDED
Baptism (his marriage certificate should give father’s name and occupation)
Edward Jones, the son of Robert Jones, baker, and Hannah his wife (who was the daughter of Henry Jeffries of Olveston in Gloucetsershire) was born 13th Dec 1809.
Registered 1st April 1811 by John Ryland, pastor of the Baptist Church in Broadmeadow, Bristol
Witnesses – Thos Jerman?, Sarah Lippett, Sarah Butcher
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THE JONES FAMILY of BRISTOL ( I have been doing some more digging)
Robert JONES married 15 Apr 1804 Bristol to Hannah JEFFRIES
Robert died 1828 (left a WILL). Hannah died 1868, Clifton, Bristol.
1841 census for Hannah
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5b3cab7ff4040be3c1f8e0e5/david-sands-1841-gloucestershire-bristol-city-1811-?locale=en
1851 census for Hannah
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGKK-TMD
1861 census for Hannah
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7VT-5XM
CHILDREN of Robert and Hannah:-
1.William Jones born 26 Jan 1805, (Baptist church - son of Robert and Hannah, Bridewell Lane, St. James Bristol.) He married Elizabeth Burrow in St James 1826. He was a baker.
He died 1844 (see his Will)
1841 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14be5cf4040b9d6ebfdf10/william-jones-1841-gloucestershire-bristol-city-1806-?locale=en
2.Robert JONES born 20 Dec 1806. Married Elizabeth MARTIN in 1825, and then in 1845 he married his brother’s widow Elizabeth nee BURROW.
He died 1848 (see his Will) – shares same grave stone as his brother William.
1841 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14c1d6f4040b9d6ec3e26c/robert-jones-1841-gloucestershire-barton-regis-1807-?locale=en
3. Sarah JONES born 7 July 1808. Married 1830 London to Benjamin PRING esquire. Sarah died 1892.
1851 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGBC-J7T
4.Edward JONES, the son of Robert Jones, baker and Hannah his wife (who was the daughter of Henry Jeffries of Olveston in Gloucetsershire) was born 13th Dec 1809.
Edward 1st married 1833 to Mary WITHEY
Edward 2nd marriage 1881 to Margaret WILMOTT
Edward died 1883.
5.Marianne JONES born 2 Aug 1811. Married David Powell SANDS in 1839.
She died (age 100) in 1911.
6.Henry JONES born 26 Jan 1813. Married Mary Ann PRIDE in 1838.
Henry died in 1891. I think Henry took over Edward’s bakery business in Berkeley Place after Edward died.
There is more to discover about Henry. He was the inventor of self-raising flour! :) (see Bristol Archives) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Jones_(baker)
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/history/bristol-baker-who-invented-self-6421112
1841 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14bd8ff4040b9d6ebef703/henry-jones-1841-gloucestershire-bristol-city-1811-?locale=en
1851 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/659bade9f493fd854055753f/henry-jones-1851-gloucestershire-bristol-st-james-1813-?locale=en
1861 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59032363e9379091b1b9e181/henry-jones-1861-gloucestershire-bristol-st-james-1813-?locale=en
7.Elizabeth JONES born 18 Apr 1814. Married Thomas Morgan VENNOR in 1835. She died 1849.
------------------
These JONES documents might be important to read to know how the family property/ finances were worked out.
1 - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/40f53a6a-3cac-41f3-b476-046a7ee06c4d
2 - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/57262b63-83ab-4afb-b631-e68552fc4b6a
Will of Robert Jones (senior) -1828
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D193648
Will of William Jones -1844
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D90622
Will of Robert Jones (junior) - 1848
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D130415
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thank you,
I am going to carefully get caught up before making a silly comment
I was just wondering if
Mary Jones nee WITHEY died, 1841 -1851-ish or they separated.
If they separated and didn't divorce, then Edward couldn't legally get married to my Margret. I am not saying that happened here. It has happened elsewhere on my tree though.
I guess it does say Edward is a widow though
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I think Mary died between the 1841 and 1851 census. Mary Jones is a common name and there are a couple of possible death registrations of the right age, in the right area, so which exact date is not clear. You could purchase them all and see which one is correct.
When you get the marriage certificate of Edward to Margaret, in theory, it should say he was a widower. Let’s see what is recorded. The census says he was a widower.
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I can hear you asking why did it take Edward such a long time to marry Margaret. I wondered the same thing. The Jones were Baptists, so maybe there were religious differences, or some other family difference. I don’t think it is possible to know from such a distance in time.
Edward’s first wife was a Withey, and Margaret Wilmott’s mother was a Withey. Were the two women cousins, and did that put some problem with a marriage? ???
We can speculate at this stage, but that’s all.
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Excellent work on those Jones Neale1961 ;D
I had made a small start, but you have been much more efficient than me (as usual).
Looking forward to those further results Jason.
I've been trying to find a death notice for Mary. None yet.
But these clips might be of interest
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I can hear you asking why did it take Edward such a long time to marry Margaret. I wondered the same thing. The Jones were Baptists, so maybe there were religious differences, or some other family difference. I don’t think it is possible to know from such a distance in time.
Edward’s first wife was a Withey, and Margaret Wilmott’s mother was a Withey. Were the two women cousins, and did that put some problem with a marriage? ???
We can speculate at this stage, but that’s all.
You never know, there might be an explanation in his will. Stranger things have happened.
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Mary Jones of Berkeley Place buried 2 August 1850 age 37 Bristol General Cemetery
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Goodness that was hard to find, even knowing the date!
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Good find mckha489. That’s Mary sorted. :)
Death rego
JONES, MARY Age 37
GRO Reference: 1850 S Quarter in THE CLIFTON UNION Volume 11 Page 186
(Interesting that there don't appear to have been children in over 15 years of marriage.)
Mary Jones died 2 Aug 1850. Fanny Wilmott-Jones born in Feb 1851. = Edward and Margaret together before Mary died. :o
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(Interesting that there don't appear to have been children in over 15 years of marriage.)
Mary Jones died 2 Aug 1850. Fanny Wilmott-Jones born in Feb 1851. = Edward and Margaret together before Mary died. :o
Perhaps she had a long & lingering condition.
One thing that strikes me as odd, although I am satisfied we have it sorted (need the wills for final proof) is that on none of the birth regs I have seen does Edward get called a Baker.
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Yep, He gets called a Gentleman a lot. From the little I have seen of this family, his father and siblings, etc., they were also bakers but get called “gentlemen” & "yeoman" in a number of documents. Maybe because they were really “business men” (with a certain amount of wealth) - interests in grain mills, and flour merchants, and more than just bakers.
I agree we need the documentation to confirm we are on track with the right family.
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this comment was answered
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Have you ordered the Wills? (Edward’s & Mary’s)
I really think they are essential to establish Neale1961 & I haven't led you up a garden path.
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I "WILL" :) get there eventually
I got a ton of stuff to work on at the moment on my tree.
I found a blog
https://kurtofgerolstein.blogspot.com/2023/
a page or two down talks of
Francis Sylvestre Gaillard who married Alice Mary Jones / Wilmot
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So, this is Alice Gaillard wife of
Francis Sylvestre Gaillard (Alice nee Jones)
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Hellen Wilmot / Jones
also known as Ellen
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For your records ...
Nellie Wilmott and Charles Turrian married 8 April 1889 in Washington (Concordia Lutheran)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QK9B-P7F5
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To give and update I have traced and tracked all Jones / Wilmot sisters down to living people and everyone in-between. I have reconnected some cousins with other cousins that haven spoken to since the 1960's. A few weeks ago, I resolved Amy Lara Wilmot / Jones that moved around a bit including Panama (as stated in this post) and only had one child.
I now have 59/64 4x great grandparents confirmed
one of the missing would be the Thomas Johnson (jr) Grandmother
The Thomas Johnson (the one in the subject line) parents where already found here
to recap are
------
Thomas Johnson (I need to find his mother and siblings)
B:Abt. 1815 Manchester, Lancashire, England
D:Aft. 1851 Lancashire, England
and
Lousia Meacock (her family has been found already all I need is her death date)
B:Abt. 1818 Runcorn, Cheshire, England
D:
---------
Thomas Johnson's (snr) father is John Johnson and Manufacture found on their marriage Banns
John is Tentatively from Liverpool, St Philip (no proof of that)
so, I am looking for John Johnsons wife and other children
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Hi Jason, I am glad you have progressed so well.
Have you ordered the Wills? (Edward’s & Mary’s)
Can you please share what the wills of Edward & Margaret Jones revealed?
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On the 1851 census
Thomas Johnson (snr) family
Household schedule number 132
Piece 2222
Folio 149
Page number 43
County Lancashire
Registration district Salford
Sub-registration district Broughton
---------
Living with them is
Ellen Lloyd
born about 1834
in Liverpool, Lancashire, England
she is stated as Thomas Johnson's (snr) Niece
since she is stated as 17 it is more likely that Lloyd is her birth surname, and she is the daughter of Thomas Johnson's (snr) sister ??? Johnson that married ??? Lloyd
Note: I am only looking for
Thomas Johnson snr mother and siblings, I have a questionable 1841 census for him
Ellen Lloyd's parents' siblings' spouse etc. 1841, 1861 1871 etc census for her
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From reply #134
You will need to purchase some records to prove and confirm all this. None of them are costly.
- The marriage record for Edward to Margaret.
- The 2 death certificates, and the 2 wills of both Edward Jones and Margaret Jones.
Can you please share this information. :)
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I have not purchased the Wills yet. I did look into where the money went though.
The living person I found, an older man and grandson of
Julian Vowles stated some of the money was passed down. He was told that lawyers had a hard time tracking down next of kin. So, who got the money might not have been the people stated in the Will. (Which I haven't seen)
My 2x great grandmother was basically kicked out of the family and never spoken to again. Everyone was told she moved to America which she didn't. This happened 9-10 year before her father Edward died. I am rather sure nobody knew that she was in Cheetham, Lancashire. I don't think my great grandmother Ruby even knew she had brothers.
Helen was married and in New York or New Jersy and married so had a different surname
Alice was married and touring across America performing in numerous comedic operas
Amy was married to a Cuban man and kept on moving around. By the time of her father's death, she was likely either in Panama Canal zone, Florida, New York or New Jersy.
I am not sure if any of them received any part of the estate due to not being able to be found.
They didn't seem to be very close to their father.
Lewis and Julian were young, and some money was set aside for them.
Lewis ended up in Zimbabwe, but his kids were in South Africa, whatever the received
Lewis's son Eric (deceased) got a large chunk of money after Lewis died. He went through financial hardships over his life Through him his wife and adopted daughter and husband (also deceased) used it all up. (This was told to me by a close relative of that adopted daughter and husband that personally knew them very well.
Julian and family lived in south Africa for some time and England.
Any money left to them would have been used up and divided across multiple decedents of theirs
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My great grandmother Ruby received money from the estate of her mother's 4th husband well known author Arthur William Marchmont and whatever was left from the Fortts Bath Oliver biscuit factory.
She did not get any money from Edward Jones Estate as far as I can tell nor did her mother Fanny.
The remaining money at the time of Rubys death was left the fellowship of the golden triangle and not passed down
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What about the marriage certificate? What did that tell you about Margaret? Anything useful? Or surprising? Who were the witnesses?
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Amy was married to a Cuban man and kept on moving around. By the time of her father's death, she was likely either in Panama Canal zone, Florida, New York or New Jersy.
Amy married in 1887
In 1910 she said she arrived in US in 1886
Her father died in 1883
And her mother in 1884
I would have thought more likely that she went to America after the latter’s death.
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Marriage of Thomas born c 1815 he says his father is John who is a Manufacturer.
There is a nonconformist 14 October 1813 baptism at Blackley of a Thomas Johnson, son of John & Ellen Johnson of Manchester. manufacturer.
Image on FindMyPast
And Ancestry (edited to add)
Brother? Same place
3 Feb 1811 Joseph son of Thomas & Helen Johnson. Of Salford. Warehouseman
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13 Sep 1810
Deans gate, Manchester
John Johnson, cotton manufacturer of Manchester & Ellen Heyes of the same place married by licence
Witnesses
Buckley Booth
Mary Butter(worth?) not sure of end of her name
Everyone signed
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Ellen Johnson of Broughton buried Blackley age 43. 7 Oct 1829
(Louisa Johnson was of Broughton when she married George Septimus Dixon)
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Amy was married to a Cuban man and kept on moving around. By the time of her father's death, she was likely either in Panama Canal zone, Florida, New York or New Jersy.
Amy married in 1887
In 1910 she said she arrived in US in 1886
Her father died in 1883
And her mother in 1884
I would have thought more likely that she went to America after the latter’s death.
As discussed earlier in this thread, the daughters did not start their international travel in pursuit of professional "artistic" endeavours, until after their father's death. To me this suggests there was suddenly money there for them to use. It was also after the father's death that some of the daughters started to use the surname Jones. Edward Jones (as far as we know) did not have any other children, so where did his money go? - most probably to his wife and then to his children. Only the WILL can provide the correct information.
If it was my family, I would have been super curious, and I would have obtained all the certificates and wills a long time ago. It reads as if Jason has not followed up on any certificates at all. :-\
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10 Feb 1836 Burial at Blackley
John Johnson of Broughton, nr Manchester age 50
I know you seem to think Wills are not very useful, but I assure you they have the potential to be very informative.
And there is a Will of John Johnson, Manufacturer, of Broughton at
Lancashire Archives Probate Index Archdeaconry of Chester (supra wills 1800-1858)
One would expect it to name living children & probably properties owned
Link for ordering
https://clickquestion.lancashire.gov.uk/runQuestionnaire.asp?qid=576248
Reference in catalogue
https://archivecat.lancashire.gov.uk/calmview/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=W%2fCW%2fSupra%2fC1019%2f69&pos=1
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Notice of death has “Woodlands, Broughton Grove”
Manchester Courier
06 February 1836
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My 2x great grandmother was basically kicked out of the family and never spoken to again. Everyone was told she moved to America which she didn't. This happened 9-10 year before her father Edward died. I am rather sure nobody knew that she was in Cheetham, Lancashire. I don't think my great grandmother Ruby even knew she had brothers.
As I understand it this information comes from descendants of her children by her first husband. Those children remained with the Vowles family. They were bound to be told an extravagant story about where their mother had gone (I should think). And that is the info that would be passed down in that family as ‘fact’.
Seeing Edward and Margaret’s wills would confirm whether she had been banished from her birth family.
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Ellen LLOYD with the Johnsons in 1851 could be the daughter of a Richard LLOYD and Eliza MEACOCK
They married July 10 1831. Samuel Meacock her father gave his consent.
So actually Louisa’s niece.
Baptised 26 Nov 1833
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Death of Louisa.
Dixon, December 30th , Louisa the wife of George Septimus Dixon was interred at the cemetery on Thursday last [no cards]
Macclesfield Courier , 5th Jan 1889
Added..this death was noted by Neale1961 in reply #28 of this thread on 8th May 2022!
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Jason, I’ve just read this in the Lost Cousins Newsletter regarding post 1858 English wills
“ Will prices go up?
I don’t normally spread rumours, but I’ve heard that the cost of post-1858 wills for England & Wales will be increasing significantly, possibly from early April (which is only days away).
Frankly the current cost of just £1.50 is a bargain – it was £5 or £6 at the beginning of the century, and increased to £10 in 2014, before suddenly dropping by 85% in 2019 when the will-ordering website was relaunched. Bearing in mind that wills often mention people who aren’t close family members, and some who aren’t family members at all, it’s well worth putting in your orders NOW, while the cost remains affordable.”
Bearing that in mind I am encouraging you to order Edward & Margaret’s wills while they are still just £1.50!
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Jason, I’ve just read this in the Lost Cousins Newsletter regarding post 1858 English wills
“ Will prices go up?
:(
I sounded a warning back in January, when we were (rightly) celebrating the saving of the post 1858 original wills. Didn't think it could be so soon though.
There is a slight sting in the tail though.
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And there is a Will of John Johnson, Manufacturer, of Broughton at
Lancashire Archives Probate Index Archdeaconry of Chester (supra wills 1800-1858)
It's on FamilySearch, will starts here (cover is on previous image)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D4W7-D9Z