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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: Lesleyann on Monday 30 May 22 17:25 BST (UK)
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My great-grandfather was John Edwards, born in 1857/58 and here's where my problem starts. The 1891 census says he was born in Hengoed, Shropshire, the 1901 and 1911 censuses say Rhos-y-Medre, Denbighshire and the 1921 says Oswestry. I know I have the correct man on these censuses because John has his wife, Alice and their daughter, Alice Jane, with him. John married Alice Wicks in 1888 in Nantyglo and the marriage cert says his father was Edward Edwards and John was living in Nantyglo at the time.
I cannot find him attached to an Edward Edwards on any census anywhere. I've entertained the idea that his mother married twice but I've got nowhere with that either. John died in 1931 in Ynysybwl and is buried there. His wife, Alice, died shortly after childbirth in 1891 in Tirphil.
I'd be glad if anyone can suggest how I can progress from here. I can't order a birth cert for him because I really have no idea where he was born.
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Is any occupation shown for Edward on John's marriage cert?
His wife, Alice, died shortly after childbirth in 1891 in Tirphil
the 1901 and 1911 censuses say Rhos-y-Medre, Denbighshire and the 1921 says Oswestry. I know I have the correct man on these censuses because John has his wife, Alice and their daughter, Alice Jane, with him
You say his wife Alice died shortly after childbirth in 1891 but that the 1901/11/21 censuses have his wife Alice with him??
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so this family in 1891
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:HM3D-9W2
and daughter Alice J with her widower father in 1901
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X911-CV2
One of the witnesses on the marriage is a David Edwards. Have you tried tracing him?
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Is this his baptism in Hengoed (Gobowen, near Oswestry) in 1856
30 Sept 1856 John Edwards son of Edward and Elizabeth. Edward is a Labourer in the register.
Gadget
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This could be the family i n 1851, before John was born
Hengoed, house in the field, Selattyn
Edward, 38, Labourer, b. Llansilin
Elizabeth 36, b. do
David, 8, b. Llanfechan, Montgomery
Mary, 1, b Selattyn
and 1861
Daywell, Oswestry (Daywell near Gobowen}
Elizabeth, 46, widow
Mary, 11
John, 4, b Whittington - not far away from the Selattyn-Oswestry- Gobowen area
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That looks interesting, Gadget!
I'll show my workings -
1911 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW6R-CH5
John is enumerated as uncle. Have you traced the family he is related to?
Births of children in the household
Irene Davies sept qtr 1909 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 605 mmn Edwards
William Edward Davies sept qtr 1907 Llandilofawr vol 11a pg 1257 mmn Edwards
marriage of parents John Davies dec qtr 1905 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 938 with Elizabeth Ann Edwards on the same page. But parish record isn't online to check details.
This 1901 census could be Elizabeth Ann with her mother remarried to Morgan Coomb(s)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X911-4NN
same family in 1891, David Edwards is head of household - born Llanfyllyn, Montgomeryshire.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:HMQQ-NZM
1881 census with a boarder John Edwards of the right age but his birth enumerated as Tredegar.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27T-N7Z5
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I know that area well, osprey - home ground :)
This could be possible for Edward's burial. Age is a bit out from census but ....
Hengoed 30 Oct 1856 Edward Edwards, 46. Abode - Daywell
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One of the witnesses on the marriage is a David Edwards. Have you tried tracing him?
This would fit with the 1851 - David aged 8 on that.
Add - and your 1891 link
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birth reg for youngest Edwards child
Wyndham Rees Edwards march qtr 1891 Merthyr Tydfil vol 11a pg 613 mmn Jones
parish marriage 21 Feb 1870 parish church of Rhymney
David Edwards 25 bach collier Tredegar father Edward Edwards labourer
Mary Jones 19 spinster Tredegar father David Jones collier
witnesses Thomas Thomas & Ann Seward
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There's an interesting entry on the 1841 in Llandysilio, Llanfyllin
Edward Edwards, 30, ag lab
Elizbeth, 25
Edward, 3
Cuffin, 7 months
David Thomas. 70
Ann Thomas, 60
All b. County except David and Ann
Cuffin's birth reg:
Dec q, 1840, Llanfyllin, 27/76 MMN Jones (add - 1841 was held in June)
Not sure but worth following - ages seem similar, allowing for aging down on 1841, and b county could be correct depending on PL Union
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There's an 1851 census for Cuffin with same parents
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGD9-MBR
He married in 1866
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NFFX-TTY
and died in 1876
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPJ3-47LV
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baptism in Selattyn
29 Sept 1849 Mary daughter of Edward, labourer, and Elizabeth Edwards of Hengoed. Date of birth noted as 4 Sept 1849. Can't see a birth reg to check mother's maiden name.
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It should be Oswestry RD if it was registered.
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baptism in Selattyn
29 Sept 1849 Mary daughter of Edward, labourer, and Elizabeth Edwards of Hengoed. Date of birth noted as 4 Sept 1849. Can't see a birth reg to check mother's maiden name.
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Like you, I've searched but nothing fits. She might not have been registered. I didn't find a definite for David either, just the baptism.
Mind, I had a family who only registered the births after the 1874 Act. I assume that they might have thought that baptism was enough.
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the baptism for John shows his date of birth as 30 Sept so baptised the same day. So birth would probably be registered dec qtr 1856. Possible birth reg
John Edwards dec qtr 1856 Oswestry vol 6a pg 591 mmn Roberts
possible marriage reg - civil marriage at Llanfyllin according to North Wales bmd
Edward Edwards june qtr 1842 Llanfyllin vol 27 pg 129 with Elizabeth Roberts on the same page
possible birth reg
David Edwards june qtr 1843 Llanfyllin vol 27 pg 85 mmn Roberts
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The closest that I can find for a bapt for an Elizabeth Roberts in Llansilin at about the right time is
25 March 1815 Elizabeth d of Edward and Jane of Selattyn. Edward a labourer.
Selattyn and Llansilin parish share a boundary . A pity it doesn't give the township.
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Thank you so much for your replies. I'm going to look through them now. Sorry, I meant his wife was with him up to 1891. He was with his daughter after that, also called Alice.
I think you've cracked it, you wonderful lot! Gelligaer is the area where John's wife died, it's right next door to Tirphil. I found Wyndham living in Ynysybwl which is where John lived with his daughter after his wife died - and where I lived too! Poor Wyndham was killed at Ypres when he'd been married for just a year. Alice, John's wife, died of peritonitis after childbirth in July 1891 but we don't know if the child lived. John already had a year-old child and went to live with family in Ynysybwl. He may not have been able to cope on his own with the child and a newborn baby. I now know that John had family very near to him in Gelligaer so it's possible the child was given to someone there to bring up. My grandmother never knew about a sibling, she always said she was an only child.
Thank you so much, you've solved a puzzle that's been part of my life for quite a few years!
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To bring you kind people up to date, I now have John's birth certificate based on the information you supplied. His birth was registered in Oswestry, registrar's district St. Martin's, in the counties of Salop and Denbigh, on 3 November 1856. He was born on 30 September 1856 in Daywell, Whittington, to Elizabeth Edwards, formerly Roberts and Edward Edwards, agricultural labourer.
I have sent for the marriage cert of Edward and Elizabeth which has been dispatched today. The birth cert I had as a PDF so it came quicker.
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thanks for updating us. Always good to know outcomes!
:D
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thanks for updating us. Always good to know outcomes!
:D
Agree. It's nice to find others who shared the same places (and surnames) as some of my ancestors. Also, finding them there always makes me remember the times that I've been around those places :)
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I now have a marriage cert for Edward Edwards and ELizabeth Roberts but I'm not too sure about it. They were married on 7 May 1842 in a chapel in Llanfyllin. She's 27 and he's 29. His father is Daniel Edwards and hers is Cadwaladr Roberts. The witnesses were Daniel Edwards and Gwen Roberts. If I had the correct people, they had two children before 1842 so this marriage is unlikely to be theirs. There's always the possibility that my research is wrong, though. I can't find a Cadwaladr Roberts that fits. There is another marriage between Edward Edwards and an Elizabeth Roberts that is muddying the waters but this one is Edward Pryce Edwards. A bit more digging needed here!
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possible baptism
Llansilin, Denbighshire 25 Aug 1813 Elizabeth dau of Cadwaladr, farmer, and Catherine Roberts of Bodlith.
possible burial same parish
27 March 1847 Cadwaladr Roberts of Rhydleos Fach
marriage same parish
22 Sept 1801 Cadwaladr Roberts & Catherine Jones, witnesses Edward Jones & Janet Jones, all marked.
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1841 census in Bodlith
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M77S-JD5
map for Rhydleos
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rmc/
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baptisms for siblings of Elizabeth
Llangadwaladr 23 Dec 1801 Jane address Rhiwlas
all Llansilin - address usually noted as Rhydleos Fach
Anne 22 Dec 1808
Robert 6 Sept 1811 - noted as son of Cadwaladr Roberts and his wife Catherine formerly Catherine Jones of Rhiwlas
Thomas 25 Feb 1816
Edward 3 Sept 1818
Gwen 9 Dec 1820 and buried 12 Dec
Gwen 14 March 1822 - the marriage witness?
Gwen married 3 Aug 1850 to Edward Davies of Garthgelynen, her address noted as Rhydleos Fach.
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oh yes, Edward's baptism recorded by same cleric as that of Robert Roberts!
Llansilin born 18 Sept 1812 baptised 4 Oct Edward a child of Daniel Edwards of Cefn Ganol by Mary his wife formerly Mary Evans of Llandrillo
But
8 Jan 1815 Sarah daughter of Daniel, sawyer, and Elizabeth Edwards of Cefn Ganol
and marriage in Llansilin 2 March 1811 Daniel Edwards & Elizabeth Evans both otp both marked, witnesses Evan Jones & Edward Richards - he is possibly the parish clerk as he witnesses several marriage.
possible 1841 with Elizabeth not born in county
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M77S-VXC
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My 2x greats (Robert Roberts and Margaret Ellis) married in Llansilin in 1854. Margaret's abode was Rhydleos.
If this is correct, I have some photos of the farm somewhere.
Gadget
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it's a small world! ;D
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;D
I think this is it. I don't have them all on here.
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And the Church
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I've been out all day so I'm only just catching up with this. Thank you again for all your hard work. Looks like Cadwaladr may be my man. I'm going to study all this in detail but it looks as though you've cracked it again.
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I've had a good look through all this information and it looks as though the marriage cert is correct after all and one of the witnesses would have been Elizabeth's sister. Thank you again and thanks too for the photos. I never thought I'd see those! We're in South Wales but I think a trip north will be undertaken soon!