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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ross & Cromarty => Topic started by: BeckyG on Wednesday 31 August 22 07:43 BST (UK)
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Hi , I am still trying to track down my elusive GG Grandma and thought that an understanding of the old Poor law System may help in finding where she may have disappeared to.
Isabella MacKenzie was born in Lochcarron (Jeantown) between 1812-1814 and lived in Annat with her husband after their marriage in 1840. After her husband's death Isabella claimed Poor Law in Applecross as her 'husband's settlement ' as opposed to a 'birth settlement' and I can find two Poor Law entries on Find My Past for 1861 and 1867 . The second entry states that she was struck off the roll in August 1869 and I know that she was marked as deceased on her daughter's wedding entry in December 1871.
Would anybody have any ideas at all please why somebody who was clearly destitute would be struck off the roll ? Was there a workhouse in Applecross / Shieldaig that she may have been moved to ?
Thank you .
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The Workhouse site only lists 3 workhouses in R&C ~
Fortrose, Tain and Lewis.
https://www.workhouses.org.uk/Scotland/UnionsScotland.shtml
Have you checked deaths on SP and/or the 1871 census?
There is an entry on the 1871: a patient in an institution in Inverness of an Isabella Mackenzie, 61, a widow, from Applecross.
This from a transcription. I'll check the full entry on SP.*
Gadget
* all patients on the page entered as 'lunatic'.
Institution - Inverness District Lunatic Asylum
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Apart from a daughter, other children (the 2 sons) are mentioned in the poor law recods - what happened to them?
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I see that you've checked some deaths, and Monica has helped, on this thread.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=862216.0
Add - you could check for death records in Inverness in addition to Rossshire
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An FindMyPast entry (transcript only) under "Scotland Poor Law and Lists" includes -
"Register note - 6 Apr 1867 son John died, 22 May removed to district asylum, 9 Jun1882 died this date"
Isabella Mackenzie, born 1811, age 56,
Year 1867, residence Applecross Asylum
Children John 11, Kate 9
A different Isabella?
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An FindMyPast entry (transcript only) under "Scotland Poor Law and Lists" includes -
"Register note - 6 Apr 1867 son John died, 22 May removed to district asylum, 9 Jun1882 died this date"
Isabella Mackenzie, born 1811, age 56,
Year 1867, residence Applecross Asylum
Children John 11, Kate 9
A different Isabella?
I thought that that one didn't match the other two that Becky mentioned. From memory, the children had different names.
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Just checked again.
The one you mention was listed under Applecross union 'by Birth'. Becky refers to the other entries as Settlement by her husband's settlement.
Add - also different children's names
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Becky - what was her duaghter's name: Kate or Mary or ??
Add - I see that the children on the entries that I've looked at are the same as here:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=862216.msg7315783#msg7315783
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Thanks so much for all the replies .
I can answer a few questions. Isabella's children were Christy (born 1842) , William (1846), Mary (1848) , Duncan & Donald (1851) and Alexander (1855) . There was another boy and another girl who had died by 1855 but I can't find their names . I also thought that there was a John but have since found this was wrong .
I can find Christy on the 1871 census in Annat and Mary in Fodderty . I cannot find William , Duncan, Donald or Alexander although there are plenty of people either living an servants or boarders by those names it is difficult to prove anything definitely . I cannot find Isabella on the 1871 census . I did find an Alexander living in Locharron listed as a nephew so I will double check the details on that .
I have pretty much exhausted SP with all variants of Isabella McKenzie in Ross & Cromarty and Inverness . I did check the Inverness Asylum one but she had a different husband . I did find a possible entry in Kishorn but can now rule that out as I found further details in a newspaper obituary , and another in Gairloch but the age was massively out .
I think one problem that I am facing is that the records for Lochcarron were apparently burnt in a fire so I am struggling to find her family . I am working on an assumption that her parents may have been Christy and William but that is just on naming patterns and guess work .
Why is it hat the family you can't find is the one that interests you so much :-)
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Have you tried the kirk sessions records on SP?
Also, if she was in some kind of institution, she might have be entered with initials only. I've also seen initial only on death certs.
Sometimes those elusive ones suddenly appear so don't despair.
Gadget
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Yes there is an Alexander McKenzie living in Lochcarron in 1871 listed as nephew with the Finlayson family . Isabella was from Lochcarron but her maiden name was McKenzie . I will try and have another look for isabella's children tonight and see if they lead me to her . Christy as her oldest child would be the most obvious but she had two illiegitimate children and her 16 year old sister was present at the first birth , maybe there was a fall out with Isabella .
Thank you Gadget I will have a look on the Kirk Sessions and check out initials only . Any suggestions are fantastic as I just seem to be running out of ideas .
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Had a read of the Kirk sessions for Applecross which are fascinating (when I can read the writing ) . They only go up to 1862 and I would be interested in 1862-1871. On a You Tube tutorial on the Kirk Sessions it says that you can request SP to upload (if possible) extra dates . Has anybody ever done this please ?
Also could I ask a couple more questions please ? Are all death records on SP , is it just a case of finding where it is :-) . And also back to the Poor Law does anybody know why somebody would be struck off the roll ?
Thanks again for any help at all that you can give me . Becky
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Also could I ask a couple more questions please ? Are all death records on SP , is it just a case of finding where it is :-) .
It was mandatory to register a death after 1 January 1855. All registered deaths should be on SP unless
- whoever should have registered the death didn't do so, and didn't get caught
- SP has failed to index it
- the death certificate is illegible
Before 1 January 1855, there was no requirement to keep any record of a death or burial.
And also back to the Poor Law does anybody know why somebody would be struck off the roll ?
The main reasons were
- they became able to support themselves again
- their family took responsibility for looking after them
- they refused an offer of relief made by the parochial board, for example the parochial board said yes, we will admit you to the roll and we will take you into the poorhouse, but the person refused to go into the poorhouse
There is no implication in the term 'struck off' - it doesn't necessarily mean they did anything bad. It just means that they no longer needed (or were deemed no longer to need) relief from the poors funds.
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Thank you Forfarian .
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Had a read of the Kirk sessions for Applecross which are fascinating (when I can read the writing ) . They only go up to 1862 and I would be interested in 1862-1871. On a You Tube tutorial on the Kirk Sessions it says that you can request SP to upload (if possible) extra dates . Has anybody ever done this please ?
Bringing this question up in case someone has made such a request and can help.
I've not done this but it would be worth asking them.
Gadget
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Have you followed up any of the other children, Becky?
If there were marriages, in addition to Mary's , it might give some hints or, sadly, even their early deaths.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget ,
I am still trying to find them all but it's difficult as they are all pretty common names. Christy was the easiest to find but she died in 1875 aged 32 (of consumption) leaving 2 illegitimate children . The death was reported by her uncle who was her late father's brother. Christy's younger child changed her name from Ann MacKenzie to Ann McLean and seems to have been taken in by her father . I am still looking for Christy's son Alexander though .
Just realised that isabella was actually my GGG grandmother and her daughter Mary was my GG Grandmother . Mary married in Dingwall in December 1871 when both parents were listed as 'deceased' . There were no Mackenzies as witnesses .
Still looking for the four surviving boys, William , Donald , Duncan and Alexander, who I can only definitely pin point in Annat in 1861 . Did wonder if they may have emigrated . Maybe marriage records on SP would be the best way to find them as at least I can cross reference with their parents names . Census records seem to be too much guess work as to whether they are the right person .
Thanks again for your help.
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. Christy was the easiest to find but she died in 1875 aged 32 (of consumption) leaving 2 illegitimate children . The death was reported by her uncle who was her late father's brother.
I assume that Isabella is recorded as dead on that. I'll have another furtle later today.
Gadget
The first time I went to Applecross (early 1970s) we had to go over the Bealach na Bà - not an easy road to drive! Later, when we lived up near Ullapool, the coastal road had been built. It's still very remote though.
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Thank you Gadget .
Yes Isabella was listed as deceased in 1871 on Mary's wedding entry , and in 1875 on Christy's death certificate - but was alive in 1867 . You would think that she would be easy to find wouldn't you . I think that she used the name Bell but I've searched for that too (and Bella).
We went over the same pass last October and my husband swore that he would never do it again . We have booked to go up to Torridon again next October so maybe a trip to the Applecross Heritage Centre will be called for !
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We went over the same pass last October and my husband swore that he would never do it again .
One of my favourite roads - I was always delighted to have a reason to go over to Applecross.
Though there was an occasion when I met what must have been the biggest pantechnicon in the Highlands on the last hairpin from the top and had to reverse all the way down the hairpins to get to a suitable passing place.
And on one occasion I only just escaped before a blizzard made the road impassable.
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Forfarian we had a severely over weighted car and so came back along the scenic route :)
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LOL!
In those days I drove a Mini, and it was tremendous fun on the Bealach na Bà and similar roads.
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An update on this thread , I have now found ( I think ) three of Isabella’s children .
Alexander was living in Australia under the variant Alastair .
I have sadly found a death certificate in 1862 for Donald.
I’ve also found a death entry for Donald’s twin , Duncan , in Peel , Ontario .
Still no sign of Isabella and her son William . Maybe if I find one it will lead me to the other . I think a trip to Inverness to check out the asylum records may be my best bet .