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Research in Other Countries => South Africa => Topic started by: Twits on Monday 12 September 22 16:40 BST (UK)
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Please could someone advise?
I am trying to find my grand mother and her mother's birth certificates.
Starting with my grand mother, I have got scanned coppies of her:
1) Death Notice
2) Death Certificate
2) Marriage certificate
3) Divorce order
Her name was Noreen Edith Clapham Davis (born Simmonds).
She was born at Graaff-Reneit, Cape Province in 1910.
Her ID number was 100815 0016 006.
Her mother was Florence Elizabeth Simmonds (born Langlands).
She was born circa 1884, either in Cork, Ireland or in the Cape Province (I am unable to ascertain).
I have tried NAAIRS with no luck. Family Search has been very helpful but no birth certificates.
Can anybody suggest how I can my grand mothers reference number for NAAIRS so I can get a copy? And at the same time, confirm if her mother is in NAAIRS?
Thanks in advance.
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Just to clarify, I am assuming that her birth certificate will be on NAAIRS because of her being born in 1910.
If that is incorrect, would I then be correct in assuming that the only way to get the certificate is through Department of Home Affairs?
If so, application form DHA -154 asks for ID numbers of both parents which I am unable to provide.
How would I go about getting them?
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Hello Twits and welcome to RootsChat. :)
While not a direct answer to your questions, hopefully this information will help you a little.
These following links for records will open if you are signed in (free to do so).
MARRIAGE of Florence Elizabeth LANGLANDS to Railton Francis SIMMONDS 19 Oct 1909 Muizenberg, Cape, Sth Africa.
Both were aged 25. He was a draper
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C91R-99FZ-J?cc=2821281
Death of Florence Elizabeth LANGLANDS 7 July 1958 Johannesburg
Age 83 (born 15-1-1875) She is recorded as divorced. Id number is on this record.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6ZMZ-GTKG
Death for Rialton Francis SIMMONDS 5 Apr 1944 Port Elizabeth
Probate lists children
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QG5W-KV3H
After he divorced Florence, he married 2 Oct 1928 to widow Amy Ellen Kingston Buissanne
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Florence Elizabeth Simmonds (born Langlands) is mentioned on both her father’s and mother’s probate records ……
James LANGLANDS born in Ireland abt 1852 (parents John and Isabella); died 16th Jan 1913 Muizenberg, Cape, Sth Africa. Occupation – railway employee retired
His wife Ellen nee KELLY (married in Ireland abt 1875)
His probate lists his children:
• John George LANGLANDS
• Isabella Eileen HULME
• Cecil James LANGLANDS
• Florence Elizabeth SIMMONDS
• Lewis William LANGLANDS
• Greta Helen HAMILTON
• Edith May LANGLANDS
• Kathleen LANGLANDS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPW8-V5F5
and https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVSC-QSFB
and https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/138419274/james-langlands
Ellen LANGLANDS (nee KELLY) Died 26 march 1923 Johannesburg
Age 71 born Cork Ireland, Parents John and Margaret KELLY (Wises Distillery in Cork)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPKR-G4FH
and https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:71DY-ZZPZ
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Records for the family in Ireland. (Again to open these links, you need to sign in and prove you are not a robot, but it is free)
Marriage of James LANGLANDS to Ellen KELLY - 28 Jan 1875 Cork Ireland
He was 23, bachelor, a clerk, son of John LANGLANDS a grocer
She was 22, spinster, daughter of John KELLY an engineer
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1875/11199/8104104.pdf
Children’s births (registrations that I could find online)
• John George born 17 Feb 1876 Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1876/03062/2122526.pdf
• Isabella born 10 March 1877 Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03016/2105195.pdf
• James Cecil born 28 Apr 1878 Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1878/02958/2083648.pdf
• Annie Ethel born 2 Aug 1879 (she died in Cork in 1888)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02901/2062855.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1888/06181/4767121.pdf
• Louis Garneth William born 20 Aug 1882 (he died 21 Nov 1882 – 7 months)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1882/02765/2016158.pdf
• Lewis William born 13 Oct 1883 (twin)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02707/1996653.pdf
• Margaret Hellen born 13 Oct 1883 (twin)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02707/1996653.pdf
• Edith May born 6 Dec 1884 Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02652/1977812.pdf
• Kathleen born 8 Oct 1886 Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02576/1952265.pdf
Unfortunately I could not find anything for your Florence Elizabeth. It may be that she was born before the marriage, and therefore she may have been registered in a different name.
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The probate lists them in order of birth which indicates that Florence was born in 1880/81. This means she was 28/29 when she married, not 25.
Debra :)
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Hello Twits and welcome to RootsChat. :)
While not a direct answer to your questions, hopefully this information will help you a little.
These following links for records will open if you are signed in (free to do so).
MARRIAGE of Florence Elizabeth LANGLANDS to Railton Francis SIMMONDS 19 Oct 1909 Muizenberg, Cape, Sth Africa.
Both were aged 25. He was a draper
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C91R-99FZ-J?cc=2821281
Death of Florence Elizabeth LANGLANDS 7 July 1958 Johannesburg
Age 83 (born 15-1-1875) She is recorded as divorced. Id number is on this record.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6ZMZ-GTKG
Death for Rialton Francis SIMMONDS 5 Apr 1944 Port Elizabeth
Probate lists children
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QG5W-KV3H
After he divorced Florence, he married 2 Oct 1928 to widow Amy Ellen Kingston Buissanne
Hi Neale1961
Thank you for all the help.
The marriage between Railton and Florence is correct.
The mariage between Railton and Amy is also correct.
This I can prove.
I saw the Death Information Form for Florence previously but dismissed it because:
1) If she was divorced she would most likely have kept using her married name or possibly reverted to using her maiden name (Langlands). Where does Lang come from? Could it simply have been old age as there is no mention of dementia on the form? Could it have been misinterpretation of person filling in the form?
2) Her age does not corellate with her marriage certificate. Here it is 1875 whereas her marriage certificate shows as circa 1884. Again...could it have been age? Vanity?
Assuming this was her...any idea on how to use her ID number to gather further information to clarify this was indeed her?
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Florence Elizabeth Simmonds (born Langlands) is mentioned on both her father’s and mother’s probate records ……
James LANGLANDS born in Ireland abt 1852 (parents John and Isabella); died 16th Jan 1913 Muizenberg, Cape, Sth Africa. Occupation – railway employee retired
His wife Ellen nee KELLY (married in Ireland abt 1875)
His probate lists his children:
• John George LANGLANDS
• Isabella Eileen HULME
• Cecil James LANGLANDS
• Florence Elizabeth SIMMONDS
• Lewis William LANGLANDS
• Greta Helen HAMILTON
• Edith May LANGLANDS
• Kathleen LANGLANDS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPW8-V5F5
and https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVSC-QSFB
and https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/138419274/james-langlands
Ellen LANGLANDS (nee KELLY) Died 26 march 1923 Johannesburg
Age 71 born Cork Ireland, Parents John and Margaret KELLY (Wises Distillery in Cork)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPKR-G4FH
and https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:71DY-ZZPZ
Hi again Neale1961
Thanks again. I already had this but looking at them again made me realise two things:
1) James and Ellen were Florence's parents. They were both born in Cork and moved to SA. They had 9 kids whilst still in Cork. 8 of them are reqistered as births in Ireland including 1 which died when she was 8 years old (born in 1879). Why then is there no record of Florence who was born in Cork circa 1884? There are births recorded before and after hers!
2) After James died in the Cape, Florence moved to Jo'burg with the kids. That death cirtificate for Florence Lang (Langlands) previously discussed showed her place of death as Jo'burg.
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Records for the family in Ireland. (Again to open these links, you need to sign in and prove you are not a robot, but it is free)
Marriage of James LANGLANDS to Ellen KELLY - 28 Jan 1875 Cork Ireland
He was 23, bachelor, a clerk, son of John LANGLANDS a grocer
She was 22, spinster, daughter of John KELLY an engineer
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1875/11199/8104104.pdf
Children’s births (registrations that I could find online)
• John George born 17 Feb 1876 Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1876/03062/2122526.pdf
• Isabella born 10 March 1877 Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03016/2105195.pdf
• James Cecil born 28 Apr 1878 Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1878/02958/2083648.pdf
• Annie Ethel born 2 Aug 1879 (she died in Cork in 1888)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02901/2062855.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1888/06181/4767121.pdf
• Louis Garneth William born 20 Aug 1882 (he died 21 Nov 1882 – 7 months)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1882/02765/2016158.pdf
• Lewis William born 13 Oct 1883 (twin)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02707/1996653.pdf
• Margaret Hellen born 13 Oct 1883 (twin)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02707/1996653.pdf
• Edith May born 6 Dec 1884 Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02652/1977812.pdf
• Kathleen born 8 Oct 1886 Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02576/1952265.pdf
Unfortunately I could not find anything for your Florence Elizabeth. It may be that she was born before the marriage, and therefore she may have been registered in a different name.
Thanks Neale1961.
I have looked at Irishgeneology.ie before but not in enough depth to get all the certificates like you have just provided.
I previously stated 9 kids. Thanks to your reasearch it looks like 11 kids.
Still no mention of Florence.
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The probate lists them in order of birth which indicates that Florence was born in 1880/81. This means she was 28/29 when she married, not 25.
Debra :)
Hi Debra
Thanks for the help.
I have already noted the discrepancy between her age on her death notice and her wedding certificate hence why I was inclined to dismiss her death notice on the grounds of her age (83).
Assuming her death certificate is correct, she was born in 1875.
Both the death certificates of Florence's parents, list Florence as being 4th oldest with Cecil being older (28.04.1878) and Lewis younger (30.10.1883).
Furthermore, according to the Irish birth/death registrar, there were two more born during that time.
Annie 02.08.1879 and Louis 20.08.1882 (both died in Cork).
From this I deduct Florence should have been born between 1880 and 1881 (allowing preganancies).
Therefore both birth dates on Florence's death certificate and wedding certificate don't add up.
Is anybody able to shed light on the ID number stated on her Death Notice, 331/151646
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Hello Twits, A suggestion - When you respond on the forum it is best to use the REPLY button (bottom of page) rather than quote and repost lengthy replies and links that have been read previously. :)
I don’t understand why you would disregard the 1958 death certificate for Florence Elizabeth LANGLANDS.
- It has the correct and full Christian names and maiden name, correct place of birth, correct marital status - divorced.
- It is quite common for ages at death to be a few years off.
- I have never come across a divorced woman who continued to use her husband’s name – doesn’t that defy the purpose of a divorce? So she would not be known as SIMMONDS on her death.
- Have you checked her residential address against the address of other family members?
- What is most important to notice in this case is the informant on the death certificate was not a family member, but the UNDERTAKER – so someone who did not know Florence at all. As he filled out the paper work, he was possibly working from bits of information supplied by a hospital / doctor. You can see his uncertainty regarding her year of birth – he has scored out what might have been 1883? (wrong), and inserted 1875 to make it fit with her age at death (also wrong). There are other places on the certificate where it is clear that corrections and additions have been made. I wonder if when writing her surname - LANGLANDS, he (or the doctor supplying the information) suddenly realised that this was her maiden name, and he stopped in confusion and just left LANG…..
There are a number of records available (National Archives of Sth Africa) regarding the separation of Florence Elizabeth from her husband. These may shed some more light for you.
On Florence’s marriage she has lowered her age, so she is not older than her spouse. I have come across numerous examples of this. Our ancestors were much vainer and more concerned about age discrepancies than we are these days. (My own family tree is full of people telling fibs on their marriage records.)
I agree with Debra and yourself that the children’s birth order is recorded on their parents’ probate records, so Florence Elizabeth should be after Annie and before Louis. I suspect the day and month (15 January) on her death cert might be correct, but the year should be 1881. This would fit with the typical spacing of the other children in the family – about 13 to18 months apart.
I spent well over an hour yesterday searching for Florence’s birth registration using various different spellings, and wild card searching. I found nothing. It does not mean that it is not there to be found, but I suspect that her birth was not registered – simply forgotten about.
I am assuming you have accessed the Irish records available online regarding the parents of James LANGLANDS and Ellen KELLY.
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Hi Neale1961
Noted ;)
You are a &*()"£ genius. I have found the link. Thank you...it was right there in front of me.
I have checked the adresses of Florence and her siblings before. Notably they were from Jo'burg area with a few from Parktown North. I dismissed it as coincidence.
And then I read your response about checking the residences so I compared with here daughter (my grandmother) and her grand daughter (my mother).
The address on Florence's Death Notice, my grand mothers wedding certificate and my mothers birth certificate are the same.
Irrespective of age discrepancy, I think that is conclusive proof that this IS the Death Notice of Florence that we are looking at.
I take on your point about the corrections on the Death Notice. I thought along the same lines as yourself, however I am new to this so was not to eager to draw conclusions.
I saw the divorce records on NAAIRS. Unfortunately very little else comes up.
I take on your point about her vanity.
As for her birth date, thank you to both yourself and Debra for agreeing with the logic of circa 1881. I was also thinking that it was very peculiar for the person filling in the death notice to give such a specific birth date.
I have spent quite some time looking at Irishgenealogy.ie but I have not yet looked for anything on James and Ellen yet. So far I have just been working off of Death Notices for the two found on Family Search. This is my next step.
Is there a way to view the documents on Irishgenealogy.ie page by page or is the only way to use their search bar?
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So glad to have been a help. Good that you have that death cert. sorted now. ;) Sometimes it is the tiniest detail that finally solves the puzzle.
I don’t think you can search the Irish genealogy site by flicking through pages. However I am happy to be corrected.
When I searched for your ancestors, in the surname box, I used the wild card “Lang*” which picked up different spellings.
Remember there are specialists on the Irish Forum on RootsChat who might aide you further. If you start a new thread there, be sure to link it to this one, so time and effort is not wasted re-finding the same information.
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Will do Neale1961. Thanks for all the help.
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You can actually check the birth registers page by page but it does take some time depending on how lucky you are to find an entry.
Hopefully this explanation will make sense.
Using Isabella born 1887 as an example- here's the correct link that was posted earlier-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03016/2105195.pdf
Now, say that you suspect Isabella was born March 1877 in Cork but can't find her on Irish Genealogy.
So, search for Isabella (no surname), Cork as the district (which is more difficult as there are quite a few districts in Cork) then 1877-1877 for years. In the results click on a name like this one-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03016/2105225.pdf
Then change the last few digits to go backwards or forwards. Change the 25 to 26 to get the following page or change 25 to 24 to go backwards, etc.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03016/2105225.pdf
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Twits you will only find death notices, baptisms, marriages on Familysearch. Birth certificates can only be obtained through Home Affairs which unfortunately is a shambles at the moment. Sometimes they reply to emails if you lucky. If out of South Africa you can apply through a consulate office. Good luck.
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Hi Pampoen (love the name)
I have read some horror stories with getting birth certificates through the consulate (London).
Entertaining that thought though...I downloaded form DHA-154 with the intention of getting the birth certificate for my grandmother.
It asks for details of her parents.
Would you per chance know if I can just leave this out as I have my grans ID number?
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Hi aghadowey
I am just working through your guide. Thank you.
Understood. So simply change the last letter on the web adress.
Am I correct then in looking up her older sibling and then just work my way down until I come across her younger sibling?
Logically then, if I can't see it that way then it isn't there.
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It is the numbers not letters that need to change to continue to another page. It might help to know how the books are arranged. Originally all births, from memory, for a year were in one volume but as the numbers increased it changed to a volume for each quarter. In each book the certificates are by registration district then sub-district. For Cork it would be Cork No.1, Cork No.2, etc. You would need to have an idea of the date unless you have lots of time to check everything!
Sometimes searching with minimal details gets the page- first name with no surname, 'unknown' for the Christian name (many children weren't registered with names), year & registration district, etc.
There were some entries that were not photographed. I remember several times, having name, place & exact date for an event and when not finding it realised that the whole quarter for that sub-district wasn't in the book.
Mis-indexed items can also be difficult to find- don't assume that because it's an 'easy' name to find that it doesn't appear incorrectly in the index.
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Through piecing together various bits of information, I think the birth date we are looking for is 15 Jan 1881 (or close to it). However cannot be 100% certain.
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Eliza Florence Laugland!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FB71-SMS
Here's the registration- 15 Jan.1881
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1881/02834/2039037.pdf
;D
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Here's the registration- 15 Jan.1881
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1881/02834/2039037.pdf
Fantastic Aghadowey! Twits will be so thrilled.
I am surprised my wild card searching did not find it, even with that surname spelling. Or maybe it did, and I just passed it by in the index, as it was so far off “Langlands”. ::)
My birth date for her was spot on though. :D
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Some more on your LANGLANDS family
Death of Isabella LANGLANDS (mother to James Langlands) in 1874 in Cork (age 64)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1874/020656/7247880.pdf
Husband John present at her death. No death found for him in Ireland.
On James Langlands’ marriage to Ellen Kelly we have the name of a brother (as a witness)
William LANGLANDS
• 1891 census in Bristol : William, single, born 1854 Cork, a Steam ship manager
• 1897 travelling New York to Liverpool, age 43, single, ship owner. (Also onboard - James G Langlands, married age 50)
• 1901 census in Weston Super Mare, England: William, single, born 1854 Ireland, – a Ship owner
• 1920 marriage to Frances Seldon in Devon
• 1930 William (age 76 ship owner) travelling England to Egypt with wife Frances (age 64) Home address 8 West Cliff, Dawlish, England.
• Death 14 Feb 1933 in Paddington, London, age 77. Probate gives address in Dawlish Devon. Names widow as Frances. A wealthy man – He left a sizeable amount in his will.
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Then I followed up on this other marriage in Cork (a sister to James)
Anne LANGLANDS married 18 Jan 1865 Cork to Robert STRACHAN (a farmer born 1834 in Kinnettles, Angus, Scotland ) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1865/11568/8255908.pdf
The couple were married (or had banns read) in Scotland on 8 Jan 1865 in Scotland (Mains and Strathmartine, Angus)
Children for Ann and Robert STRACHAN born in Mains, Angus, Scotland:
• Robert Lorimer STRACHAN 1866
• John Langlands STRACHAN 1867
• Isabella STRACHAN 1869
• James STRACHAN 1870
• Barbara Grant STRACHAN 1872
• Marion STRACHAN 1873
Ann (Langlands) STRACHAN died in 1882 Longforgan, Angus (age 43)
I very quickly realised that the Langlands originally came from Scotland. Not surprising as it appeared to be an uncommon name in Ireland, and they were Presbyterian.
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So here is your Langlands family in Scotland:
Scottish records are available from here. https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
It is free to register and search the index. Costs a small amount to purchase credits & download original documents.
John LANGLANDS (who became the grocer) baptism 24 Oct 1811 Dundee, Angus
Parents James LANGLANDS and Euphemia VALENTINE
Isobel GRANT baptism 25 march 1810 Tealing, Angus
Parents John GRANT and Anne WATT (married 19 Dec 1800 in Tealing)
John LANGLANDS (the grocer) MARRIAGE on 12 Apr 1838 in Dundee, Scotland to Isabella / Isobel GRANT
1841 census Dundee Angus, Scotland
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a140a60f4040b9d6eefe0f2/john-langlands-1841-angus-forfarshire-dundee-1812-?locale=en
1851 Census St Vigeans Angus
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/590273d8e9379091b10024e7/john-langlands-1851-angus-forfarshire-st-vigeans-1812-?locale=en
Their children born in Dundee Scotland:
• Ann Watt LANGLANDS bapt 26 Jan 1839
• Euphemia Valantine LANGLANDS bapt 4 July 1841; burial 14 Sept 1842
• Isabella LANGLANDS born abt 1843
• Marion (Mary Anne) LANGLANDS born abt 1845
• John LANGLANDS junior born abt 1847
After 1851 the Langlands family moved to Cork, where more children were born (including your James and his brother William, ship owner).
Sometime after Isabella died in 1874, John moved back to Scotland.
I picked him up again in 1891 Scotland census.
1891 census St Clement Angus
John LANGLANDS 79 retired grocer, born Dundee
Marion LANGLANDS 46 Daughter, born Dundee
Barbara STRACHEN 5 granddaughter, born Dundee
John LANGLANDS (grocer) died in 1891 St Clement, Angus. Mothers maiden Name on death cert is VALENTINE. Looks like there is a will / testament for him on Scotlands People.
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Adding a few more details:
James LANGLANDS died 7 March 1836 in Dundee (age 50)
Euphemia VALENTINE died 25 Mar 1854 Dundee (age 72)
1841 census for Euphemia
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a140f53f4040b9d6ef56e97/euphemia-valentine-1841-angus-forfarshire-dundee-1786-?locale=en
LANGLANDS grave in Dundee
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/236327668/james-langlands
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Twits will be pleased at all you found. First to explain how I found the 'missing' birth. FamilySearch has most, not all, Irish births 1864-c1881 in their Irish births & baptism collection which shows more than the civil index (name, date of birth, parents). So, I searched there for a 'Florence Elizabeth' born 1880s Cork and BINGO!
Now added a bit more with a Scottish connection-
Cork Constitution, 11 Sept.1890: ... greengage jam, home-made, superior quality. Langlands, Grocers, Bridge street. MIDLOTHIAN oatmeal (genuine Scotch) direct from millers weekly, 2s 6d per atone; finest quality; Scotch Farls (oatcakes) per lb. Langlands, Grocers, Bridge street.
Lots of other similar articles as well as prizes at poultry shows, etc. Sometimes seems to be listed as James Langlands, Glen House, Cork or Glenhouse Poultry Farm in 1890s.
Cork Daily Herald, 26 Nov.1896: ... night at about 7.30 o'clock at Mr Langlands' grocery establishment, Bridge Street. The fire was first noticed by sparks rising over the houses in Camden Quay. It was then found that the stables at the rear of Mr Langlands' premises were on fire. The stalls ...
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Good day aghadowey and Neale1961.
I am truly humbled. Thank you so kindly both of you for all the help. Never did I expect this!
This has all been a massive learning curve.
There is a lot of information you have both provided which I will now work through but I just want to say ...
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
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Again...I am gobsmacked. Thank you both.
I have just read through all the responses. I had no idea about the Scotland connection.
Then again, my level of research is clearly not up to the same level as yours...lol!
aghadowey - Might I ask how you located the birth certificate on irishgenealogy.ie
I just tried a search again and could not locate it but if I follow your link I locate it.
Is there a special key you input in the search criteria?
What would be the next step now for my grand mothers birth certifcate?
Is that a case for the dreaded consulate in London?
Can you recommed a preferred family tree planner? I have been using Family Search thus far.
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aghadowey - Might I ask how you located the birth certificate on irishgenealogy.ie
I just tried a search again and could not locate it but if I follow your link I locate it.
Is there a special key you input in the search criteria?
Like aghadowey and myself, you just type Eliza in the First Name box, Laugland in the Last Name box and 1881 in the two Year Range boxes. Tick Birth box, then click Search. It gives you one search result-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1881/02834/2039037.pdf
(as in reply #20)
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aghadowey - Might I ask how you located the birth certificate on irishgenealogy.ie
I just tried a search again and could not locate it but if I follow your link I locate it.
Note that the surname has been indexed with the wrong spelling. Aghadowey only discovered this by searching with Christian names only on FamilySearch. See reply #26
What would be the next step now for my grand mothers birth certifcate?
Is that a case for the dreaded consulate in London?
I am in no way very knowledgeable about this matter.
I think if you want a “vault copy” of the birth certificate the only way is through the Home Office or via the Consulate. As you have already been warned earlier on this thread - this can be difficult.
Perhaps first contact the Genealogical Society of SA https://eggsa.org/index.php/en/ to see if they can help, or at least advise you.
There is a little bit here, where people discuss obtaining photos of death certs through the eggsa.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=211554.9
Can you recommed a preferred family tree planner? I have been using Family Search thus far.
Not sure what you mean by a family tree planner??
If you do a search on this forum there are quite a few discussions about family tree templates. This might be give you some ideas. :)
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Hi Kiltaglassan
Thanks for the response.
I am thinking it may have been my browser because that is exactly what I did previously, exactly as you have described, resulting in nothing.
I just went back and searched again...presto.
So I am there...eventually ;)
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Hi Neale1961
I was thinking of contacting https://eggsa.org/index.php/en/ as a first step as well.
I will let you know the outcome.
On a side note, yesterday I contacted the Trinity Church of Cork asking them to clarify if Florence had been baptised there. They responded today advising not BUT they could confirm that her parents were indeed married there.
So if it helps anybody reading this, yet another source is to contact churches directly.
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Just picking up on reply #26 by aghadowey and the newspaper articles from the late 1890s.
We know that John Langlands (senior) who started the grocery business in Cork was retired and living in Scotland by 1891, and possibly earlier. He died in Nov 1891 (typo corrected.)
So I think his sons must have taken over the running of the shop in Cork. There was a son John “junior”, and I think the James referred to in the papers must be the James who eventually emigrated to South Africa. He was possibly doing the clerical work for the family business. Maybe the son William who was in the steam ship business was involved in transporting that delicious Scottish oatmeal to Ireland. :D
Perhaps the fire in late 1896 put an end to the grocery business, and they never re-built. I could see no Langlands living in Cork in the 1901 census.
We know that James Langlands and family were still in Cork in 1888 (when a child died) but I suspect they were there much longer. I believe that was him in 1897 travelling with his brother William from USA to Liverpool (reply #22).
We don’t see records for the family in South Africa until about 1907. So where was our Langlands family in 1901 census? Not in Scotland. ???
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Looking at ships passenger lists, I can see that the oldest boy emigrated to South Africa first, and then other members of the family followed.
Arriving in South Africa from Liverpool in March 1902 on “Persic” - John George LANGLANDS (26, Irish, a clerk)
Arrival in Capetown in August 1903 on “Athenic” - Miss E. Langlands (Eileen) and Miss F. Langlands (Florence)
Arrival in Capetown in June 1904 on “Athenic” - Mr J. Langlands (gent), Mrs Langlands (wife), Miss M Langlands (Margaret) and Miss K Langlands (Kathleen).
After hours of searching!!
Here they are in 1901 census for Ireland under the name LAYLAND (mis-transcibed)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/North_West_Ward/Richmond_Hill/1108787/
The first records for the Langlands family in South Africa are:
1907 (March) Eileen Isobel Langlands married HULME
1908 Margaret Helen Langlands marriage to HAMILTON
1909 Florence Langlands marriage to SIMMONDS
1913 James Langlands (senior) died
1915 Cecil James married to SAVILLE
1917 Edith May Langlands married her sister’s widower HAMILTON
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Good find, Neale1961 re the 1901 census under Layland - it clearly shows Langland but his writing is very poor. ::)
The error in transcription has been reported.
(N.B. typing error in your reply #33 - "He died in Nov 1981.")
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The error in transcription has been reported.
(N.B. typing error in your reply #33 - "He died in Nov 1981.")
Thanks for reporting both errors. :) Mine has now been corrected.
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Hi Neale1961 and Kiltaglassan
Thank you for all the effort you have put into this.
I have emailed eGGSA. No response as yet.
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I have been looking at your KELLY family. ........
Starting with information from Ellen KELLY marriage to James LANGLANDS
Her father was John F. KELLY an engineer
George Metcalfe KELLY – witness (probably brother)
Margaret KELLY died 20 Feb 1889 (maiden name WARD) age 76
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1889/06146/4755796.pdf
Wife of John Kelly a mechanical engineer. James Walshe (son-in-law) present.
Address 24 Richmond Hill
Grave: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/234499328/margaret-kelly
John Francis KELLY died 29 March 1898. Age 83, mechanical engineer.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1898/05825/4649382.pdf
Daughter Ellen Langlands present. Address 23 Richmond Hill
Probate: KELLY, John Francis, late of Richmond Hill, Cork, gentleman. Probate of the will granted to James Langlands of Glen House, merchant; and Robert Stiven of Ferncliffe Villas, esquire; both of Cork.
Marriage of John KELLY to Margaret WARD - 29 Jan 1854 Dublin city
John Kelly age 38, widower, an engineer, living in Cork, father William Kelly; occupation - smith
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1854/09469/5431463.pdf
[ Who was John’s first wife? On Ellen’s probate her mother is named as Margaret. But according to 1901 census and her death cert, Ellen was born abt 1852. Assuming that birth year is correct, she was born before the 1854 marriage. Ellen may have been Margaret Ward’s daughter, or the daughter of John’s first wife, but the mother she never knew. ]
continued ............
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Older brother to Ellen -
George Metcalfe KELLY Died 31 March 1877, age 33, engineer, address 24 Richmond Hill, Louis Kelly (probably brother) present at death
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1877/020543/7208694.pdf
Grave marker https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/234499315/george-metcalfe-kelly
George worked as an engineer & chief engineer on ships from around the age of 23. There are numerous crew lists for him all giving his place of birth as Dublin, and year 1844-1845.
[ If George was born 1844, it puts his father’s first marriage at early 1840s.
Thinking aloud - the second name “Metcalfe” may well be his mother’s maiden name. ]
Older Sister to Ellen -
Lizzie KELLY marriage 6 Aug 1872 to James WALSHE (Methodist)
Address 23 Richmond Hill, Cork; (witness A. Kelly)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1872/11319/8153762.pdf
1901 census (23 Richmond Hill)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/North_West_Ward/Richmond_Hill/1108784/
Death 1904 (23 Richmond Hill)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1904/05632/4584546.pdf
Younger Sister to Ellen -
Margaret Anne KELLY marriage 3 Sept 1883 to Robert STIVEN (witness Annie Kelly)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1883/10941/5998673.pdf
1901 census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/North_East_Ward/Sunmount_Terrace/1103152/
1911 census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Cork_No__3_Urban/Adelaide_Terrace/385234/
It looks as if the family may have come from Dublin originally, and then moved to Cork. During the last few decades of the 1800s, there were a number from the same Kelly family living close to each other in Richmond Hill, Cork.
I don’t know what became of Louis KELLY or Annie KELLY, both witnesses at family events. I would look for Louis emigrating. Louis / Lewis was obviously an important family name. Kelly surname being so plentiful makes it challenging, but more searching may yield more results.
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On Ellen’s death record it gives the address “Wises Distillery, Cork” for her parents John and Margaret. I could see no mention of it in the records I found for the Kelly family, but possibly John Kelly worked as an engineer at the distillery.
Wise’s Distillery (North Mall Distillery) was once one of the largest Irish whiskey distilleries in Cork. Brothers Thomas and Francis Wise founded the business in 1779. It occupied the site of the renowned old Dominican Friary which was then known as the abbey of St. Mary of the Island.
This major industry employed 250 people in its heyday. The undertaking was totally self-sufficient having its own carpenters, engineers and coopers workshops, and its own bottling stores. A contemporary account of the business describes its magnitude and that its immense barley stores could stockpile 30,000 barrels. The mill building was an immense five storey structure, reached by passing under an archway. “The giant water wheel was 25 feet in diameter driving six pairs of stones and other machinery.” The handsome chimney stack was completed in 1878 at a cost of £5,000 and into it was diverted all the flues from the distillery.
Regrettably, the distillery’s fire prevention measures were not enough to prevent the total destruction of the production buildings in a fire on 15 January 1920.
(You will easily find some pictures of the distillery online)
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Hi Neale11961
It is amazing how much stuff you have found. Thank you for all your time and effort.
Again, a lot of information which I am slowly working through. I am slowly adding all this information to my tree which will hopefully provide a better picture eventually.
By my estimates then, we can trace back circa early 1800's which is truly impressive.
I go to Cork for work occasionally. I will go visit the brewery and touch the wall...
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Hello family,
I’m so excited to find this post and information. James Cecil Langlands is my grandfather (born 1878 Cork) he married Mary Elizabeth Saville, born 1887 Cork died 23/6/1945. I have further information on my father Len Langlands if this is helpful information
Thank you
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Hi lalululuz
As in Leonard Willmore Langlands? Then your mother would be Emmerentia ?
That is incredible. I would love to chat. I have PM'd you.
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Lalululuz will have to make several posts before they can receive or send PMs.
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Hi Neale1961
Long time no speak !
Thank you. I was just in the process of emailing administrators to ascertain exactly that.
The issue is the last notification email I received from the website was back in Sept 2022 from yourself. I did not receive an email notification from lalululuz in Nov 2023. Usual email junk filters are good as I have just received a email notification a moment ago from RootsChat.
The only reason I saw this post was because I logged onto the website.
Is there anyway we can verify if lalululuz has been emailed?
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I would wait a couple of days, and see if Lalululiz comes back. If not, maybe post again.
Don’t know why you didn’t receive notice in Nov 2023. Gremlins? :)
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Thanks Neale1961
Will do.
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Hi Quentin,
Thank you for your response, yes they are my parents.
I’m stuck and cannot msg you.
Please let me know how you fit into the family, would love to catch up
Luanne
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Hi Luanne
Your grandfather James Cecil Langlands had a younger sister Eliza Florence Langlands (born in 1881 in Cork). She is my Great Grand Mother.
You would be my parents generation.
I have PM'd you again with my email address. I don't seem to be receiving notifications from the website.
I would love to chat so please do email me.
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Hi Luanne, just make one more post, and the personal message system should be available for you.
Hi twits, perhaps check your notification preferences in the settings, but then if you are still not getting emails, best to contact a moderator
Hope you two eventually get to chat. Best wishes.
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Hi Neale1961
I got a notification for your post a moment ago but stil nothing for lalululuz earlier today.
I have emaled the moderators.
I hope so too !!!
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Hi Neale1961
Contact has been made.