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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: susiee on Monday 10 October 22 08:02 BST (UK)
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Hi I have JOHN LEE in 1831 in Sydney jail and after that i cannot find him i am snot sure if his ticket of leave was cancelled like previous ones . Cant find him at all
John Lee born 1804 London arrived 1819 on the Grenada was in NEWCASTLE NSW at times.
Cant find a permission to marry or a death cert in NSW .
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7/5/1831 cert of freedom JOHN LEE It just wont post !! So i have posted hopefully the last 3 lines
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Perhaps....
in lieu of ?? 57/4734, dated 14th January 1826.
returned (crossed out) returned, mutilated 96 cancelled
:-\
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4734 days is almost 13 years!! :'(
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4734 days is almost 13 years!! :'(
Thankyou mowsehowse
Yes its really odd isnt it .
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Thankyou to the person who also sent me the RYERSON heads up, somehow the message went into another place.
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4734 days is almost 13 years!! :'(
That is the previous certificate number, nothing to do with days.
Debra :)
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4734 days is almost 13 years!! :'(
That is the previous certificate number, nothing to do with days.
Debra :)
Ok. Thanks for that.
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Thanks so much .
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Once John Lee received his Certificate of Freedom, he was free and therefore able to do whatever he wanted, and go wherever he wanted, and he did not need permission to marry.
There are a number of burial / death records, as well as marriage records that you could explore to see if any are for your John.
Also have a look in the newspapers, as there are mentions of John Lee. The trouble is that with a common name like John Lee, it will be difficult to know if you have the right person.
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Hi I have JOHN LEE in 1831 in Sydney jail and after that i cannot find him i am snot sure if his ticket of leave was cancelled like previous ones . Cant find him at all
John Lee born 1804 London arrived 1819 on the Grenada was in NEWCASTLE NSW at times.
Cant find a permission to marry or a death cert in NSW .
He did not need a ticket of leave as he received his COF in 1826 after his 7 years had expired so from then on he was a free man. In 1828 he was a labourer living at Frazer's Lane in Sydney (now The Rocks). You know that he was still alive in 1831 because he had his certificate replaced and you know he was in Sydney because there is a gaol record for when he was accused of stealing Billy Blue's boat.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2201673
He was at Pitman's Wharf which was on the other side of the harbour from Billy Blue (now Blue's Point) and still in the same area as 1828. He must have had something to do with the marine industry because the boat is said to have belonged to the Monitor which was a coastal cargo vessel.
https://mapco.net/sydney1836/sydney12.htm
Debra :)
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Once John Lee received his Certificate of Freedom, he was free and therefore able to do whatever he wanted, and go wherever he wanted, and he did not need permission to marry.
There are a number of burial / death records, as well as marriage records that you could explore to see if any are for your John.
Also have a look in the newspapers, as there are mentions of John Lee. The trouble is that with a common name like John Lee, it will be difficult to know if you have the right person.
Thanks Neal
Done all that im not sure he was actually set free at that point he had preiviously blown an impending freedom and i think he did the same again so im not sure he was free really.
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Hi I have JOHN LEE in 1831 in Sydney jail and after that i cannot find him i am snot sure if his ticket of leave was cancelled like previous ones . Cant find him at all
John Lee born 1804 London arrived 1819 on the Grenada was in NEWCASTLE NSW at times.
Cant find a permission to marry or a death cert in NSW .
He did not need a ticket of leave as he received his COF in 1826 after his 7 years had expired so from then on he was a free man. In 1828 he was a labourer living at Frazer's Lane in Sydney (now The Rocks). You know that he was still alive in 1831 because he had his certificate replaced and you know he was in Sydney because there is a gaol record for when he was accused of stealing Billy Blue's boat.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2201673
He was at Pitman's Wharf which was on the other side of the harbour from Billy Blue (now Blue's Point) and still in the same area as 1828. He must have had something to do with the marine industry because the boat is said to have belonged to the Monitor which was a coastal cargo vessel.
https://mapco.net/sydney1836/sydney12.htm
Debra :)
THAT IS FANTASTIC DEBRA !!!!
THANK YOU SOOOOOOOOO MUCH !!!
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Certificate of Freedom 1826
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2185073?searchTerm=“John%20lee”%20AND%20Grenada
Also see the Colonial Secretary’s Correspondence which can be accessed through the NSW State archives.
Just because he was charged with theft in 1831, would have made no difference to the fact he had a Certificate.
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For interest, on the gaol description for John LEE (28 May 1831) it has his occupation as "bird stuffer". There were a few in the colony at this time. I had no idea it was not an uncommon job.
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Stuffed birds - quite a 'niche market'. :D
Possibly sending them back to England in these early years?
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He was also in trouble in 1830 for stealing 2 emu
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/32073285/4293853
Pretty sure this is the same man, as it says in the article he was living in Frazier Lane, which is his address on the 1828 census (I think).
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Certificate of Freedom 1826
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2185073?searchTerm=“John%20lee”%20AND%20Grenada
Also see the Colonial Secretary’s Correspondence which can be accessed through the NSW State archives.
Just because he was charged with theft in 1831, would have made no difference to the fact he had a Certificate.
Brilliant !!! thank you so much !!!
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Certificate of Freedom 1826
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2185073?searchTerm=“John%20lee”%20AND%20Grenada
Also see the Colonial Secretary’s Correspondence which can be accessed through the NSW State archives.
Just because he was charged with theft in 1831, would have made no difference to the fact he had a Certificate.
Excellent Im not sure if this has double posted ----- but im double grateful anyway --- so thanks so much
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For interest, on the gaol description for John LEE (28 May 1831) it has his occupation as "bird stuffer". There were a few in the colony at this time. I had no idea it was not an uncommon job.
Yes Maddy , thank you .
He arrived as chair maker /fixer .
I have'nt seen bird stuffer before him as well .
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He was also in trouble in 1830 for stealing 2 emu
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/32073285/4293853
Pretty sure this is the same man, as it says in the article he was living in Frazier Lane, which is his address on the 1828 census (I think).
Thanks so much Maddy i have never seen this before ---- a really great find..... Thankyou.
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What do you know about the brother Henry Lee?
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Henry was born abt 1803 in Spitalfields and came in 1821 -Grenada as well and married Irish convict Julia Hayes in Braidwoood NSW they settled in Vic and he died in 1863 -- i have a lot on Henry and on his death cert they named his parents Henry and MAry ?
I have quite a bit on him in NSW and Vic but i am always looking for more especially his Eng info .
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You have probably seen the Old Bailey transcript of John's trial. It mentions he was lodging at Exeter Buildings. This was on Exeter St, Chelsea. You can see it on this 1820 map (near Sloane St and Brompton)
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18190113-154
I can't see any mention in the newspapers about the trial, merely the sentence - 7 years transportation.
Monday, Jan. 25, 1819
Publication: Morning Chronicle
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Thanks so much Maddy
i'm just having trouble getting it open .ill have another crack.
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Apologies, I forgot to include the link for the map -
https://www.theundergroundmap.com/article.html?id=25170&zoom=16&annum=1820
When the map loads, just scroll a bit to the left down Piccadilly past Green Park and Queens Garden.
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I feel that looking for John, close to his brother Henry in Victoria, might be sensible.
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Apologies, I forgot to include the link for the map -
https://www.theundergroundmap.com/article.html?id=25170&zoom=16&annum=1820
When the map loads, just scroll a bit to the left down Piccadilly past Green Park and Queens Garden.
Thankyou .
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I have searched high and low trying to find the fate of JOHN LEE
Am i right in thinking he would not have been able to leave Australia for mining in NZ ? or obviously return to the UK unless he had a complete pardon ? which he would not have had im sure
I did have one GGG Father who stowed away and did get back to UK after his sentence not that it did him any good he died soon after in Shoreditch to a paupers funeral as a young man .
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Susie, See reply #9
He had a certificate of Freedom. He could have gone freely anywhere - NZ, USA, England, QLD ….
If he died before civil registration, then you may not find a burial record for him.
This might help you understand all the convict tickets and certificates.
https://www.nla.gov.au/research-guides/convicts/tickets-of-leave
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Susie, See reply #9
He had a certificate of Freedom. He could have gone freely anywhere - NZ, USA, England, QLD ….
If he died before civil registration, then you may not find a burial record for him.
This might help you understand all the convict tickets and certificates.
https://www.nla.gov.au/research-guides/convicts/tickets-of-leave
Thank you Neal that s great. I have tried to get into the Old BAILEY trial link Maddy put on for him but it still wont open and i have tried to get into his record straight from the OLD BAILEY site but will it not give him up.
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Try this link
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=t18190113-154
Or from this page https://www.oldbaileyonline.org
Enter in Keywords: RICHARD BAKER and JOHN LEE
Enter in Reference number: t18190113-154
From Newgate Calendar of prisoners Dec 1819 ....
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Try this link
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=t18190113-154
Or from this page https://www.oldbaileyonline.org
Enter in Keywords: RICHARD BAKER and JOHN LEE
Enter in Reference number: t18190113-154
From Newgate Calendar of prisoners Dec 1819 ....
Thank you so much Neal i have had soooo many issues with OLD BAILEY i seen now they have had some bugs maybe i was getting the results of those .
This is just such a fantastic help !!
Thankyou .
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I feel that looking for John, close to his brother Henry in Victoria, might be sensible.
Thanks so much Neal -
Yes i v really looked for him all over the place including with HENRY or same location but nothing yet and i suspect he has changed his name by now as well .
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Where was Henry Lee? What part of Victoria?
Sue
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At Little River Mitta Mitta. I'm assuming this thread is his daughter's marriage certificate. :)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=866457.0
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Where was Henry Lee? What part of Victoria?
Sue
Henry Lee was at Little river in east Gippsland Victoria ...near Ensay
NOT the little River near GEELONG
Henry married JULIA HAYES Irish Convict ( Co Kerry ) in Braidwood NSW and they moved down to Victoria where he died 1862 /63 He owned the PUNT which took people across the River lots of gold miners as well .
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Where was Henry Lee? What part of Victoria?
Sue
See next page .
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At Little River Mitta Mitta. I'm assuming this thread is his daughter's marriage certificate. :)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=866457.0
Yep thats correct .