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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: Bluearmy1875 on Thursday 26 January 23 00:29 GMT (UK)
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Hi - just thought i'd see if anyone else has received the responses i have had to my application for my grandfathers service records. Having applied 2 years ago we recently were informed the records had been passed to the National Archives, and our payments were cancelled - but the Archives have now been in touch and said we can't access the records until 2029 and 2032 respectively ! 115 years after birth - and reason given is "Medical Records" - both grandfathers have sadly been deceased for 25+ years . We have the service numbers and death certificates, but i am at a loss on what to do next - my parents really wanted to know about their fathers, and are very disappointed - as both are in their mid 70s and feel they won't be around for the release date :-(
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There was a recent thread on the same subject.
Sounds like new policy, decided by who knows for unknown real reasons - perhaps cost cutting, under staffing, more important things to do? All of the above?
The medical excuse is nonsense and an attempt get people to go away, so they won’t need to think about dealing with any applications for at least 5, 10 and beyond years. That’s my take on it anyway. I’m sure others will have different points of view.
All I can say is I’m glad I got my father in law’s service records years ago, but I feel so sorry for people like yourself and your parents.
The other thread here:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=869450.msg7403512#msg7403512
Here in Australia we are usually years behind and sticklers for privacy, but our WW2 service records are free to view online, if they have been digitised. If not, you can request them and pay a fee for the digitisation. Our numbers of service personnel are lower though of course.
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It looks like they are using a spurious 115 year cutoff rule in order to give them some breathing space around acquiring and indexing these records. I can't see how this can stand (in law, or in practice). It also gives "privacy" a bad name, when you invoke it in such an arbitrary fashion.
We need some statement from NA regarding the reasons for this policy.
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Quote Greenrig - "We need some statement from (T)NA regarding the reasons for this policy". - OR someone who has a vested interest in the records of an ancestor to submit a FOI.
I bet if that Snow chap, or someone from a tv project wanted access, they would get hands-on with no gloves in the archive stores!
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You'd think they would release them to the close next of kin ( being your parents). I am beginning to worry if they'll release my grandfather's now. Mine is just outside the 115 years, thank goodness ( he was born June 1907) , but I am still expecting problems from them( TNA) if my grandfather's have been moved over to them.
I applied online , via the TNA site( which is new , still in beta stage) , only two weeks ago.
I haven't paid anything yet. They didn't require any immediate payment with the online application.
I am waiting to know if the Military still has his records or if they have been moved them over to the TNA. Apparently they'll send me a link to pay if it's still with the Military, I haven't a clue what happens if it has been moved to the TNA.
This below is copied from the email I recieved after I submitted my application online via the TNA:
" Your application has been sent.
Your application has been sent to the British ArmyYour reference for this search is LAN-xxxxxxxxx
What happens next
The disclosure branch will perform the search based on the data you have given.
The search will tell the disclosure branch where the record is held.
You may be contacted for further information, using the contact details you provided.
You will be sent a payment link if you need to pay for a record held by the Ministry Of Defence.
You will be directed to the National Archive if the record you want is held by them.
How to get in touch
To follow up on your application contact:
APC-Sp-ADPMRApplications-Army at mod.gov.uk
(please provide your reference number and post code or zip code on contact) " quote
Ps. When I applied the blurb on their online forms says it takes anything from a couple months to a year ( I won't hold my breath on that of course).
There must be some legal way to fight their so called policy of 115 years when it is very close family, living next of kin applying. It really doesn't seem right or fair. You'd think they could easily redact the medical details , it all seems like excuses to me.
Kind regards
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The most ridiculous thing about this is that privacy had not been an issue for however many years that the MOD were providing these records, but now that the TNA have taken over, there are privacy concerns? This makes no sense.
I wish Guy Etchells was still with us - I’d like to know what he makes of this, and if anything can be done.
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I wish Guy Etchells was still with us - I’d like to know what he makes of this, and if anything can be done.
I was thinking exactly the same thing about Guy . :)
It all seems ridiculous. They released the 1939 register and have a 100 year rule on the people on it ( if they can't find their deaths) and plenty have been still alive. They released the 1901, 1911.and 1921
How many of those people may have been still alive ( for example my husband's great aunt lived to 101) with their medical disabilities printed on the censuses, such as lunatic .
They could very easily blank out ( redact)the medical info on the army records . It seems like a ridiculous excuse by the TNA, to use the medical info as an excuse to not release the records to the living next of kin.
Kind regards
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Ok, this is getting emotive, and rightly so: Recommend enquirer's each contact their own M.P. to kick start concerns from all (necessary) quarters of the Kingdom. We can't have TNA acting in such a manner.
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I was thinking about the 1939 register and census too Cell. Not to mention that very recent UK births .deaths and marriages are available on sites such as Ancestry.
Presumably TNA view a long deceased service person’s medical records as being more sensitive than a birth record from 1990 giving mother’s maiden name? There are many other examples of easily accessible personal information.
We have strict cut off dates to access births (100 years), deaths (30 years) and marriages (75 years) but 115 years is excessive!
I am convinced it has little nothing to do with privacy and a lot to do with other factors.
Not sure if petitions are effective (doubtful) but might that be worth consideration?
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I think it would be far better if the TNA just said you might have a long wait as they might not have the staffing or whatever - rather than come up with seemingly codswallop excuses in my opinion! ::)
This is very sad that your parents will be denied access to their own deceased Fathers' war records until 115 years after their birth. Ridiculous! >:(
Does anyone know how to start a poll on here? Perhaps this and this thread could be forwarded to TNA. I think they are being very unfair and this is very bad form shown by them. Surely 100 years and if someone can be proved to be deceased that should be sufficient for a release of records to kin.
I heartily sympathise with you in this plight Blue Army. :-\
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Quote Greenrig - "We need some statement from (T)NA regarding the reasons for this policy". - OR someone who has a vested interest in the records of an ancestor to submit a FOI.
I bet if that Snow chap, or someone from a tv project wanted access, they would get hands-on with no gloves in the archive stores!
I completely agree Copper1, and more to the point this is a real block to the wonderful adventure of researching. I can`t imagine how else you are going to get through this but yes, some sort of explanation from TNA would be a help.
Sure some second rate celebrity on Who Do You Think You Are will have lots of help from the BBC and there will be no restrictions.
Always irks me when you see celebrities getting flights on Spitfires etc., bet they don`t have to pay the thousands it would cost us mere mortals.
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This was discussed only recently at an AGRA group meeting. The advice from a researcher who had recently had the same problem was to submit a FOI (Freedom of Information) request to TNA ... that should get you the record, but they may still redact medical information
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I've just dis/un-covered some very illuminating information which may be of use to this emotive topic. It took some digging >:(
First off this is the link to a FOI ('Graham Woolgar') in 2012 :o followed by a critical paragraph which may explain the current circumstances.
However, since neither I, or anyone else thus far has found a public announcement - particularly from the head of TNA [don't hold your breath on a civil servant being accountable!], I reiterate the options to interested parties,but not wholly,were posted earlier in this thread.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/review_of_world_war_ii_service_r
Point '8':-
The agreed policy between MOD and The National Archives is that service
records will be transferred to The National Archives at the point that the
majority of the subjects of the record have passed their 100th birthday
as, until that point, the record relating to any one subject will be
closed. Whilst MOD and The National Archives have not discussed in detail
the transfer of Second World War service records it seems likely that the
records will become publicly available in the mid-2020s given that an 18
year who enlisted at the mid-point in the war would have been born around
1924.
To round off, here is a link to the people at TNA representing US, the public, in various capacities for TNA, and upon the shoulders of at least one individual is the accountability to inform precisely the nature of transfer from MOD, basis of acceptance at TNA and actual process of release is being undertaken.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/our-role/executive-team/
By the way, if Graham Woolgar is out there - many thanks for your efforts a decade back in time.
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I just did a quick initial scan of the above, but did that reply to Graham Woolgar’s letter say that the “116” year rule is in place IF a death certificate is not provided? :-\
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The issue regarding "116 years" is mentioned - above the paragraph i copied & pasted, BUT only in the context that was a stipulation at the time the documents were held by the MOD.
It is my contention that TNA must make a clear and unequivocal public statement what their ruling is on the matter.
I have presumed that all applicants would, by the very nature of dealing with government employees (MOD or TNA civil servants), would naturally submit a death certificate to back up their claim and at the same time, avoid giving them an excuse for delay. I didn't read that the initial post, Thursday last, that proof of death accompanied an application.
We go back to the point(s), when were the files transferred, how much prior notice did TNA have of the procedure and what plans had they prepared in advance to smoothly incorporate them into their system.
Perhaps someone with a similar investigative nature might use the TNA 'executive-team' link in today's post which should have been noted as it provides access to their "Minutes". Could there be a useful piece of information within those meetings?
As time passes, the deadline for submissions to family history publications moves on, as does losing time not contacting an MP who represents your home address.
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Many thanks to all who have replied, and in many cases investigated. All very much appreciated !
I have tried replying to the emails from the Archives, but i havent even received an acknowledgement email back. It does mention an address to send a complaint to - but i was hoping to give the Archives a second chance first. The thing is - when we applied to the MOD we sent the cheque AND the death certificates - but they sent them back (2 years later) with the notification that the request had been passed to TNA - but the MOD returned the death certificate - so i don't even know if TNA know that both fathers/grandfathers have passed away.
The bit that gets me is - quote " Please be aware that requests made under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 have to be treated as applicant blind. Therefore, being next-of-kin can have no bearing on the outcome of this request for information. Information released under FOI is released to the public at large, not just to a requester. This is why we have to review these records for sensitivities."
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Again refer to link for TNA executive staff (earlier post) Prepare your account of how you've been mis-treated for the highest possible person and post it F.A.O. them by name 'Next Day 9am' delivery. Don't stand for this disrespectful nonsense from a civil servant. Inform your M.P. as well.
Nearly forgot - all interested parties need to have written to the family history magazine editors too.
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" Please be aware that requests made under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 have to be treated as applicant blind. Therefore, being next-of-kin can have no bearing on the outcome of this request for information. Information released under FOI is released to the public at large, not just to a requester. This is why we have to review these records for sensitivities”
??? But if you apply for your relative’s service records, they are copied and posted to you in a brown envelope. This information is NOT released to the “public at large” - it is only sent to the applicant upon payment of a quite hefty £30 (and supplying a copy of the d/c.)
Surely in the case of deceased serviceperson’s records TNA’s claim of possibly sensitive information being released to the public is irrelevant / does not apply. :-\
As an aside, who decides what is sensitive information and what is not?
Added: Further to Copper1’s post above …. It can sometimes happen that there are grey areas with the release of information, especially with these MOD records being moved to a different authority - rules and regs may not be clear, they are busy, understaffed etc, so dealing with a different employee may yield a different/better result. It is always worth asking again. I have seen this a couple of times (but with Australian records and in a different situation) where people were able to get records released due to close family connections.
I wonder if some records may be misfiled, or lost during the processf moving? :)
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but the MOD returned the death certificate - so i don't even know if TNA know that both fathers/grandfathers have passed away.
The bit that
The whole matter seems contradictory ( by the TNA)
Maybe try again, via the new online application ( on the TNA site). Which you shouldn't have to do of course considering you have applied 2 years ago and sent the MOD the death cert and are probably looking at another 1 + + years with a new application.
You don't pay anything initially with the TNAs online portal. When you go through the online application, if it's within 115 years there's an attachment button to upload a death cert.
With my own grandfather's date ( as his birth is outside that 115 years ) the option is not there on the online forms, but any date I put in within the 115 years there is a button there to upload the death cert ,you will not get past that page for any birth under 115 years if you don't upload the death cert.
Perhaps they ( TNA) did not take notice of the record of the death cert you initially sent to the MOD ( ?) .
Kind regards
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Hi
I've been following this thread with interest but I am totally lost within the hierachy of TNA!
Could someone please supply a direct link to the appropriate application page at TNA?
Many thanks
Rebel
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I've been reading about this issue in a few places, and am still rather confused. I could be wrong, but I'm beginning to wonder if two separate processes have been confused:
(a) TNA's route via the Freedom of Information Act, which, it appears, has a 115-year closure - see https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/mod-open-foi-request-step1
(b) the MOD route which provides full information to next of kin, and a redacted version to everyone else unless the next of kin consent to fuller disclosure - see https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records
On the MOD route, note:
(i) they say "Personal data is not generally available under the Freedom of Information Act" (https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/ministry-of-defence/about/publication-scheme#requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records) - does this suggest that the TNA policy might be about something other than the next-of-kin personal service records we've generally been getting from the MOD?
(ii) the MOD has recently announced that service records will be available free of charge form 23 April, and in the past 24 hours or so the website has been updated, bringing the date forward to 1 April.
(iii) most service records are still with the MOD and are only being transferred to TNA in stages, so the obvious course of action for next of kin is to apply on 1 April in the hope that the application is dealt with under the existing MOD procedures before TNA gets their hands on the records. And if ultimately there is a change of policy and some information is redacted, at least it won't have cost anything and a further application can be made in due course.
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It seems like they don’t know if they’re coming or going. ::)
Can anyone speculate why they might be offering free service records after April 1?
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All that MoD have said is that it will free to apply - not that fee for supplying a record will be waived.
Ross
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All that MoD have said is that it will free to apply - not that fee for supplying a record will be waived.
Ross
Ah ha. Well spotted Ross.
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Seems that they are in a flat spin trying to stop the idea that there will be no charge to supply a record.
Appeared in the last week or so on the page
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records
"When you apply online for a British Army or Home Guard record, the MOD will check if they hold it. If they have it, you’ll be sent a link to pay. If they do not, you’ll be told to check The National Archives."
It is to prevent bad press from the old system as more records become available at the TNA eg MoD charged me £30 upfront - not refundable - to tell me I had to pay again at the TNA
So now you apply to mod they send you an payment screen or tell you where the record is.
The more interesting bit is the one for WWI records.
If you follow the link to the TNA page it describes how to do an FOI to get possible access to the Closed responses that started this thread.
I suspected that TNA was not doing an individual FOI review even when given a proof of death - this confirms that you got the stock answer Closed until - but it was not made clear until now that you needed to do a specific method of request to trigger the review.
Note as well that it covers those with a date of birth up to and including 1939 not just WWI as per MoD page.
Ross
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As far as I understand it, TNA is exactly what its name says - a National Archive - and therefore anyone applying for information/records must be treated exactly the same.
This is what they mean by "Information released under FOI is released to the public at large" ie a record is 'open' or its 'closed'. There is no half-way measure where relatives can obtain more information than Joe Public.
The guidance from the Information Commissioner is that medical information is exempt from being made public (select Deceased People & then click through):
https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guidance-index/freedom-of-information-and-environmental-information-regulations/
What isn't clear though is whether a FoI request would enable a redacted version of the records to be opened, but TNA says this about Durham Home Guard records:
If we find a record of the individual for whom you have provided evidence of death, we will send you a copy of the record with the email. Some of the records include medical forms which for data protection reasons are closed until 2045 so this information will be redacted.
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On the Government website. From the first of April 2023 it will be free to apply for the records from the MOD, until then it is still £30.
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We wanted to apply for my father-in-law's service records but are now doubting whether it will be possible. He was born in 1912 and died in 2000. He gave up 6 years of his life fighting in Egypt and then Italy, his young son grew up not knowing his father which made relationships on his return very difficult.
In the case of this thread it sounds like "the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing".
Thanks for this topic.
Judy
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Thanks for clarifying the payment offer Ross.
It makes sense for the MOD to do a “free”check to see if they hold the records before asking for payment.
Still not clear if a family member gets the full medical records after providing a d/c though. I would think these would be of huge interest to family members. I’d be annoyed if my family member’s medical records, or even worse, some of them, were ‘blacked out’.
Can anyone hazard a guess about what might be deemed a “sensitve” medical record, and what they have the power to decide that family members can and can’t see?. Presumably if a serviceman had bullet would to the shoulder or dysentery that would be ok to pass on to the family, but if they had VD or a mental issue, that would be kept secret from family? :-\ Someone working in the office at TNA can read my relatives medical records and decide if they are suitable for me to read??? >:(
I’m glad I don’t have any service records On my wish list. ::)
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Archives said we can't access the records until 2029 and 2032 respectively ! 115 years after birth - and reason given is "Medical Records" - both grandfathers have sadly been deceased for 25+ years . We have the service numbers and death certificates, but i am at a loss on what to do next
How very odd considering a DC gives cause of death...
Medical Records can be very helpful, giving reasons as to why our families have certain illnesses &/or conditions etc.
Research teams also have an interest in certain conditions which may be inherited...
I was asked to send a list of my ancestors' known 'death' details to Aberdeen University who were (at the time) dealing with a close family members' terminal illness which will hopefully help in their research for others in the future.
Annie
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I am not quite sure about this free check theory after the 1st April ( because it is currently a free check with the MOD, via the TNA online application portal) . I applied for my grandfather's my records via the TNA on the 15th Jan ( last month) , it was sent to the MOD - which is basically a free check , you don't pay anything when you apply now ( as I haven't paid anything for them to check)
I am still waiting for an email to know who holds my grandfather records. And if the Mod still hold it - then I will sent be a link to pay the MOD if they hold it . The below is from the email I recieved after I lodged the application on the TNA site.
" Your application has been sent to the British ArmyYour reference for this
****
What happens next
The disclosure branch WILL PERFORM search based on the data you have given.
The search will tell the disclosure branch where the record is held.
You may be contacted for further information, using the contact details you provided.
You will be sent a payment link if you need to pay for a record held by the Ministry Of Defence.
"
It seems all very confusing, has anyone, besides myself ,applied in the past couple of weeks through the online application on the TNA? They do not ask for payment when you lodge the online form .I am totally confused now .
It all seems like an almighty mess by the TNA.
Kind regards
Ps
Looking at the TNA application page, the "free check from the 1st April " is under the postal application bold heading. " Apply by Post". Scroll down to postal applications on the page
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records .
The words are not situated under the *online application ( *which to my mind - is a totally free check , as I haven't paid anything at all to check if they hold them, when I submitted my application online ) .
Maybe (?) the whole confusion about this " free check" is that the free check is relating to the* postal applications only, given that the free check words, from the 1st April is situated under the" Apply by Post" header on their page . I assume you still have to send off the 30 pounds with the paper application to the MOD ,if you're applying by the postal application route, ( which is unlike submitting it online to them , where you do not pay anything for them to check )
Kind regards
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Just an update on mine, as I applied through the new online portal on the TNA site ( just a couple of months ago,) and I didn't really know what to expect, and how long it would take for the MOD to find my grandfather's records and get back to me.
I received a letter in the post from Scotland yesterday ( I am in Aus). They have informed me that my grandfather's have been moved over to the TNA. They have given me the *index numbers ( *where my grandfather's records can be found) and his service number ( I had his old army number , which I added to my application so they could find him easier, but I didnt know what his newer updated one was- his army number was changed during his time in service, as he began his service prior to the new updated numbering system , he joined up sometime in the very early 1930s or very late 20s , and continued to serve for around thirty years until around the very early 1960s ,when he finally retired) to give to the TNA. I now need to apply to the TNA via the email address they provided to me in the letter.
Hopefully I won't have any problems with the TNA. I don't know what the costs will be from the TNA for his records ( if they do release them to me of course), but I will pay it regardless of the costs, as I've been meaning to apply to the MOD for his records for years .
The online application to the MOD to find his records was totally free, I haven't paid anything for them to look, send me out a letter to Australia , informing me where it is , giving me his new service number and the index numbers it filed under at the TNA.
So far, a very good service . I was very pleasantly surprised how quick the MOD got back to me ( I was expecting it to be far longer than just a couple of months). I wish mine was still with the MOD ,as I am expecting problems with the TNA . Hopefully I won't get any.
Kind regards
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Hi there,
Just a quick update from me ;)
I applied for my uncles service record via the MOD just before the cut off date just in case the records were still with them. Unfortunately it appeared that they had already been moved to Kew but the MOD gave me a reference number which I then used to apply for them to Kew. After an initial email from them I received a rather badly cut and pasted email from them today. I copy the relevant info below ( the sentence in bold is my addition)
Thank you for your patience with your Freedom of Information request into the service records of APV000630459 I.W.H. HOWLETT Service Number:2326973.
We have reviewed this record and are unable to open it because information within this record is exempt under Section 41 of the Freedom of Information (FOI) Act 2000 until 20XX.
This means we cannot make the record make the record open to you or to the public in general.
The FOI Act gives you the right to know whether we hold the information you want and to have it communicated to you, subject to any exemptions which may apply.
The record has been closed until 115 years have passed since the serviceman’s date of birth, or 25 years after the serviceman has been deceased (if proof of death has been received by this department.) Please be aware that any death certificates sent to the Ministry of Defence are not available to The National Archives (TNA).
It seems from this that I can apply again next year when my uncle would have been deceased for 25 years rather than having to wait the full 115 years from birth.
It goes on to say
A significant proportion of this record contains medical information. TNA has decided that a partial release of this record (the release of material which is not medical) would require a redaction process that would be neither in the best interests of the record’s preservation, nor the public right to the remaining information.
Maybe I am being cynical but I somehow doubt that a significant proportion of the record is medical information and one wonders if this is just a blanket excuse which is going to be trotted out by them to avoid doing the work. I also wonder what if anything Ancestry are going to be able to scan in the interim if these rules apply to their new acquisitions
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I did a FOA last year for my great grandfathers WWII service records which are now held at the National Archives and they digitised them and sent them to me, though it took quite a while for them to process it. So they are definitely doing them. That sounds so frustrating!