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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: diane747 on Tuesday 07 February 23 01:19 GMT (UK)
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Hello, can anybody please give me some information about what the burial/cremation process was in Fife, in 1942?
I have been searching for my grandmother's burial place for a couple of years, to no avail.
An entry in my mother's diary seems to indicate that my grandmother was buried in Fife.
My grandmother (Helen Brady) died in the 'Fever Hospital' (West Fife Hospital) in Dunfermline on 4 June 1942.
'Bereavement Services' have advised there is no record of her burial in their searches, and that 'there is no card held for her' - explaining to me that when someone is buried by Fife Council, a card is raised for them.
The lair books have also been checked of nearby cemeteries, and a check has also been carried out by the Kirkcaldy Crematorium (as she had previously lived with her husband and his family in Kirkcaldy).
A search by 'oldscottish.com' also came up empty, with no record of her married name (Brady) or maiden name (McAllister) in the Kirkcaldy Register.
If no card was raised, does that mean that she wasn't buried? (i.e. that she may have been cremated?) Or is there somewhere other than Fife Council that would have buried people in Fife? Apologies if these are silly questions. I am not familiar with the process there. I live in Tasmania (Australia) and my family who would know such things have all passed away.
Any help/information/ideas of where else to try would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks in advance,
Diane
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What was her 'Usual Residence' at the time of her death & who was the informant which may hold a clue?
2 pics here...
https://olddunfermline.com/places/dunfermline-and-west-fife-hospital/
Annie
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Hi Annie, thank you for your reply and for the pics. Very much appreciated.
Her usual residence at time of death was 78 Admiralty Road, Rosyth, Dunfermline.
The Informant was her husband, 'John Brady - Widower'.
The other information on her death certificate is the Registrar (David Watson, Dunfermline - I think it says), and the person who certified the cause of death A.A. Gilmour MB ChB.
Although I have been searching for a couple of years, I am still quite a novice at all this!
Diane
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Have you tried Dunfermline Cemetery...
42 Halbeath Road, Dunfermline KY12 7RA
01383 724899
fifedirect.org.uk
Do you know when John Brady died & where he's buried?
Could she be buried with/near her parents?
It's an odd situation.
Annie
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Have you tried the local Library for an obit in a newspaper?
https://www.fife.gov.uk/facilities/library/rosyth-library
There's also Douglas Bank Cemetery in Rosyth...
https://www.fife.gov.uk/facilities/cemetery/douglas-bank-cemetery
Pic of Admiralty Road...http://www.rootschat.com/links/01s3e/
Annie
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Thank you Annie for all your great suggestions.
In answer to your questions, as she was unfortunately only 21 years old when she died, her husband remarried and died many years later, in Zimbabwe and was buried there. So she is not buried with/near him.
Her mother died young (when Helen was 9) in England where they lived at the time, and Helen moved with her father to Glasgow, where he was from. He was buried with (his) family (I have the burial records for the lair) but there is no record of Helen having been interred with them. It is unlikely that her body would have been taken to England to be buried near her mother, I would think(?)
When my mum and dad visited relatives in Fife some years ago - who Helen had lived with not so long before she died - Mum noted in her diary that they all went to visit Helen's grave but that when they got there, the gates were locked and it was very run down. So they weren't able to access.
Helen's husband had once lived in Pathhead, overlooking the cemetery there, and my research led me to think this may be a possibility of where she is buried. There had been a mention of thanks to a Rev. A. Morton Price by the family in the Acknowledgements posted in the Fife free Press - who I discovered conducted services at the E U Congregational Church in Pathhead at that time.
This cemetery is apparently gated and very run down, with many headstones unable to be deciphered. I did try to get information, however her name was not on any of the visibly named headstones, and apparently records were destroyed by fire some years ago.
In 2021, another member of this forum assisted in finding the Death Notice in The Fife Free Press, on 20 June 1942 - (Helen died on 4th June) but no funeral notice or mention of burial or cremation was found.
It's all a bit of a mystery - hence why I am trying to find out why there would not have been a card raised/held for her by the Fife Council, if she was buried in Fife (could that be possible?). Or if this means that she definitely wasn't buried in Fife and the family had it wrong?
With thanks,
Diane
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It may not be of any help, but see https://scottish-monumental-inscriptions.com/products/pathhead-churchyard-nether-street-burial-ground-kirkcaldy-fife
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I have/mean no intention of upsetting diane747 but...
"In 2021, another member of this forum assisted in finding the Death Notice in The Fife Free Press, on 20 June 1942 - (Helen died on 4th June) but no funeral notice or mention of burial or cremation was found."
I'm wondering with the lack of info. on burial/cremation arrangements, would it have been possible in the era to have a body handed over for research & how to find out :-\
"When my mum and dad visited relatives in Fife some years ago - who Helen had lived with not so long before she died - Mum noted in her diary that they all went to visit Helen's grave but that when they got there, the gates were locked and it was very run down. So they weren't able to access" ...
Is it possible there was a Headstone/Memorial erected at Pathhead which scotmum posted a link to?
Annie
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Thank you scotmum.
I had previously ordered a copy and went through it but came up nought. Your reminder of it, however, jolted me to go through it again, and while there are so many graves that haven't been able to be deciphered, there is one that is listed just as (N) Nelly. It may be nothing but Helen's name recorded on her birth certificate was Nellie, and she was apparently known by this name (as well as Ellen) prior to her marriage to my grandfather, where it was registered as 'Helen'. Family stories confirm she changed it when she got married. I wonder if this could be her grave? And how I might go about finding this out... Hmmm
Annie, I am not upset at all by your post and thoughts about whether bodies may have been handed over for research in that era. I have no idea about this but all possibilities and considerations are welcome, as I have come to a standstill with the path I have been following.
One of my own wonderings was, in a time where there were lots of infectious diseases and my grandmother died with pneumonia in the 'Fever Hospital', whether cremation may have been common practice for people dying at the Fever Hospital...? I have no real information about the practices of the hospital, or the times, so I am flying blind really.
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Further Note/Correction - scotmum I have just realised that the (N) before the name Nelly relates to the Nether Street Burial Ground. The Monumental Inscriptions are for Pathhead Churchyard 1733 - 1975 and Nether Street Burial Ground 1725 - 1935.
Helen/Nellie was buried in 1942, so unfortunately that rules that out. Back to the drawing board. :(
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One of my own wonderings was, in a time where there were lots of infectious diseases and my grandmother died with pneumonia in the 'Fever Hospital', whether cremation may have been common practice for people dying at the Fever Hospital...?
It would be worth emailing both Dunfermline & Kirkcaldy Crematorium to enquire.
You do need to know details of any possibilities in the absence of any death details for a burial/cremation.
I have a similar situation pending myself, both husband & wife died in Glasgow, Lanarkshire, 1974 (7 mnths apart), same address, no details (yet) of an Obit but I have both death certs. & their burials haven't been found.
Annie
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Thank you Annie, I will look into getting email addresses for the crematoriums you suggest and enquire with them. Given there has been no card raised by the Fife Council, it is a possibility she may have been cremated. I would have thought the family would have been aware of that but we make lots of assumptions.
Diane
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Diane 747 - I have been following your post with interest and the replies/help you have received from others.
Just a point I would like to make about Fife Council not having a card for Helen. I do not know when it happened but the Churches with Graveyards used to be responsible for keeping burial records themselves. At some point this changed and the records were handed over to the Council. Could it be that Helen's record was "lost" somewhere along the line? A possibility.
I have a family member who died in 1914 in St Monans, Fife and no grave record was ever found for him despite a thorough search by Fife Council. Other family members are recorded, even two who lie in Common Ground, one being as late as 1934.
Dorrie
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Thank you so much for that information Dorrie. I did wonder whether church graveyards may have kept their own records. I will retrace my previous research as I’m sure I read somewhere that the Pathhead Church documents had been destroyed in a fire at some point but it was quite a while ago I was down that path so my brain could be a bit fuzzy on that. It’s certainly worth following up the possibility that her record may have been lost - especially given the situation you shared about your family. Many thanks Dorrie.
Diane
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There was no crematorium in Fife until Kirkcaldy Crematorium opened in 1959 and Dunfermline Crematorium in 1973. Before then, Fife cremations usually seem to have been carried out at Warriston Crematorium in Edinburgh.
You mention your parents and local relatives attempting to visit Helen's grave, but without success. Do you know when this was or where (Kirkcaldy? Dunfermline? Rosyth?) ? Was it a churchyard or a municipal cemetery? Would you be able to quote or reproduce the relevant extract from your mother's diary? It might just offer clues to forum members with local knowledge.
Margow
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Hi Margow,
Thank you so much for the information about Crematoriums in Kirkcaldy and Dunfermline - and where people from that area would likely have been cremated at the time! It is extremely helpful to know this, as I had no idea.
In relation to the my parents and local relatives trying to visit Helen's grave, it was in March, 1981. My parents went back to Scotland for a holiday and to spend time with family. The relatives were Helen's husband's siblings, who Helen and her husband, John, had lived with - and who my father (Helen and John's son) went to live with and was raised by, after Helen died (my father was 2 yo at the time of Helen's death).
The diary entry by my mother is only short. Mum states that they had been to 'look at Grandad's grave' (John's father, buried in Hayfield Cemetery, Kirkcaldy), which 'had a new headstone'. The entry continues - "Tried to find Helen's grave but the yard was all locked up and overgrown" (which she then describes only as being like the old graveyard in the town she lived in Tasmania - which at the time was very old, with mostly crumbling/broken tombstones and overgrown with weeds, gorse, native trees/plants etc.). "Couldn't find a key anywhere". The next sentence says they then took the relatives on "a wee tour around Kirkcaldy, over their own childhood jaunts".
That is all I have but it confirmed for me that Helen must have been buried, and that it was likely somewhere close to Kirkcaldy (at least within a relatively short driving distance, I would presume).
As an aside - my thinking around Patthead as being a possibility for where Helen may be buried comes from the following -
the Reverend who was thanked in the Acknowledgement notice in The Fife Free Press, delivered services at a church in Pathhead around the time Helen died;
Pathhead appears to have/have had a locked, gated cemetery that was overgrown and in a state of disrepair at the time of my parent's visit;
John's father is cited as having previously lived at 1 Mid Street, West End, Kirkcaldy Burgh, overlooking the Pathhead graveyard;
John's mother's maiden name is Buist and there are records showing that her father also lived at this address (1 Mid Street-, West End);
and most recently I have found out
there is a plot at the Pathhead graveyard where 9 members of the Buist family are interred (although I am yet to research to see if they are directly related to John's mother).
May all be just leading me down a rabbit hole but with no record of Helen's burial, I have been/and continue to go down many of those in my quest to find where she is buried.
Many thanks,
Diane
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Mum states that they had been to 'look at Grandad's grave' (John's father, buried in Hayfield Cemetery, Kirkcaldy), which 'had a new headstone'. The entry continues - "Tried to find Helen's grave but the yard was all locked up and overgrown"
As an aside - my thinking around Patthead as being a possibility for where Helen may be buried comes from the following -
the Reverend who was thanked in the Acknowledgement notice in The Fife Free Press, delivered services at a church in Pathhead around the time Helen died;
Pathhead appears to have/have had a locked, gated cemetery that was overgrown and in a state of disrepair at the time of my parent's visit;
John's father is cited as having previously lived at 1 Mid Street, West End, Kirkcaldy Burgh, overlooking the Pathhead graveyard;
John's mother's maiden name is Buist and there are records showing that her father also lived at this address (1 Mid Street-, West End);
and most recently I have found out there is a plot at the Pathhead graveyard where 9 members of the Buist family are interred (although I am yet to research to see if they are directly related to John's mother).
Diane...
Such a sad story, your father being only 2 yrs old when your g/m died but Pathhead does seem very likely.
Margo's info. is so helpful in your quest!
Have you emailed...
https://www.fife.gov.uk/facilities/cemetery/pathhead-churchyard,-kirkcaldy
It can actually be amazing what different responses you can get depending on who deals with emails/'phone calls etc.
I've found at times, less experienced/uninterested/lazy people do not go out of their way to find out things they don't know if it means they 'have to work'!
I'd suggest an email with all info. including the 'Reverend' named, family names/dates/addresses & your family story attached may get a good response.
It is of course a possibility there may not be a Headstone but even if they could confirm things would be something.
Good luck!
Annie
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Thank you Annie,
No I haven't emailed them - I didn't have that information, so thank you very much for including it. I will do as you suggest.
Thanks again,
Diane
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A burial place described in 1981 as “all locked up and overgrown” certainly suggests an old graveyard or churchyard rather than a municipal cemetery. Pathhead churchyard does seem a possibility here.
It is likely that the Brady family had moved from Pathhead to 8 Maple Street (where they were living in 1942 when Helen died) only a few years earlier. Maple Street was part of Kirkcaldy Town Council’s Hayfield housing development built between 1937 and 1938 and mainly intended to rehouse those living in overcrowded and/or substandard conditions elsewhere in the burgh. However, the family seem to have maintained links with Pathhead. “The Reverend” in the acknowledgements notice was Arthur Morton Price (1911-1983), who was the minister at the Evangelical Union Congregational Church in Pathhead from 1936 until 1944. There doesn’t appear to be a graveyard attached to this church, so Pathhead Parish Church graveyard is probably the nearest burial place.
Pathhead Parish Church was badly damaged by fire in 1953 and, as you suggest, any burial records may have been lost at this time. If you wish to make any further enquiries, you can email the Church < pathheadchurch@btconnect.com>. Alternatively, you can email the current minister (Reverend Andrew Donald) <minister@pathhead.co.uk>
Re members of the Buist family, there is a death notice in the Fife Free Press (2 May 1942) for Robert S. Buist who died at 8 Maple Street on 24 April 1942 aged 84. (Presumably the father of Jane Brady m.s. Buist ?) If Fife Bereavement Services can locate his burial record, they may be able to identify other burials in the same lair or nearby. (He is not one of the nine Buists listed at Pathhead Churchyard - with one exception they are all pre-1900.)
Margow
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Hello again Margo, so sorry for the delay in replying to your last message.
Thank you so much for all the research and detailed information you have provided. I had no idea about the area and the information you shared about Maple Street etc. It is certainly making sense and giving more substance to my theory.
Yes, the Robert Buist you mention is the father of Jane Brady m.s. Buist (my Great Great Grandfather). I believe that he continued to live with Jane and her her husband John (and family) until his death.
It is a great idea to contact Bereavement Services in relation to his death/burial, as it is quite likely Helen may have been buried in the same place - given the closeness in timeframe of their deaths (and the age of Helen and her husband at the time of Helen's death). I imagine money would have been tight with a young son, and some reliance on John's parents (as both Helen's parents were long deceased) may have been necessary. Conjecture, of course, from the information/facts I do have.
I will make contact with them again and ask about Robert Buist, and I will also email the Pathhead Church.
I am extremely grateful for all the help I have received from you and others in this forum.
Diane
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I have sent you a PM.
Margow
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Thank you Margow, I have sent a reply.