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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Europe Resources & Offers => Topic started by: AntonP on Monday 13 February 23 03:40 GMT (UK)
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Leonard Harvey born 12/8/1871 (Father Daniel W Harvey and mother Eleanore) supposedly married a French girl and lived in France. I have no details as to where they lived in France. They had one son. Could members please advise what are the French records that are available via the internet that would enable me to follow up and find out more details about this man and his family? Many thanks
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Just to clarify - was Leonard baptised George Leonard??
George Lenard Harvey
Baptism Date: 15 Sep 1871: Lowestoft, Suffolk, England
Father: Daniel Whittle Harvey
Mother: Eleanor
There is a George L Harvey with the same birth date you give living in Buckinghamshire in 1939??
Kay
Added just in case
George Leonard Harvey Age 32 Civil Engineer
Marriage: 11 Feb 1905 - South Wimbledon, Holy Trinity and St Peter, Surrey
Father: Daniel Whittle Harvey - Independant Means
Spouse: Beatrice Mary Clarke
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You will need to know the locality of the marriage as all BMD records are locally held. Once you have that info from other records then advice can be given on where to look.
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Kay 99. Thank you for this info.
Yes that is the Lenard with the correctly named parents.
Baptism date shown is some month after birth. Also never recorded as a 'George' in family records and the 'Lenard' is differently spelt.
Beatrice Mary Clarke does not seem to be a very French name.
Family story could be mixed up over time (It does happen often in my search!!!!) and they could then have gone to live in France for some time. Maybe the son was born in the UK? I have no name for any son.
pb_devon at least as the marriage is in the UK so that is one hurdle less but the story is vague and there is no info on where or when they were in France.
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He appears to have travelled abroad a few times
George Leonard Harvey - travelling from Nigeria - port Lagos - Colonial Servant
Arrival Age: 46
Birth Date: abt 1872
Port of Departure: Africa
Arrival 24 Feb 1918 Liverpool, England
Ports of Voyage: Calabar; Bonny; Lagos; Victoria; Accra; Sekondi; Freetown
Ship Name: Akabo
Shipping Line: British and African Steam Navigation Company Ltd
Official Number: 115268
George Leonard Harvey - Civil Servant
Arrival Age: 42
Port of Departure: Lagos Africa
Arrival Date: 29 Dec 1914
Port of Arrival: Liverpool, England
Ports of Voyage: Calabar; Forcados; Lagos; Lome; Accra; Sekondi; Grand Bassam; Sierra Leone; Plymouth, Devon, England
Ship Name: Tarquah
Shipping Line: African Steamship Company Ltd
Official Number: 115293
Travelling with wife Beatrice Mary age 29
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Plenty of Leonard Harveys in France but none with that birth date. Could they have married in UK and moved to France? Can't see anything that fits in French censuses either.
What was son's name (or is he still alive, hence not specified?)
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He was living with his wife in Nottingham in 1921
Kay
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He was living with his wife in Nottingham in 1921
Kay
If that's the right man then his wife was British - Beatrice Mary born in Bowdon, Cheshire.
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I can't see George Leonard Harvey and wife on the 1911 census - maybe they were abroad. I see his occupation is listed as a Pupil to a Cilvil Engineer in 1901 which ties in with his occupation as Executive Engineer Public W(orks?) Dept Nigeria Retired
Kay
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Thanks for all the info and comments.
Obviously family story about a French girl was wrong (unless Beatrice Mary died young) and Beatrice was in fact British.
He returned to the UK in 1914 at the start of the war, so as an engineer useful in the armed forces.
Re 1911 census could have been in South Africa with father and married sister?
Anton
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There is a G L Harvey born 1872 on Passenger Ships to Lagos, Nigeria in 1910, 1912 & 1913. One entry is marked Colonial Service. He is travelling alone.
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Manukarik, thank you. I think that answers why he might not have been in the UK for the 1911 census.
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I have been told that I have the wrong info about Leonard. He died without issue and did not marry a French girl. Apologies for leading people astray.
The French connection comes via Leonard's younger sister, Maud Ellen Harvey born 23/11/1873, Lowestoft who married Edward Llewellyn Humphreys at St Mathias Church, Tulloc Hill, London on 2/9/1903. They had one son, Wilfred 'who married a French girl and lived in France'. I have no info on their son.
Again, sorry for incorrect info initially. My query though is still how to trace this couple, Wilfred plus wife, in France on this small amount of info?
.
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A correction for you. I think that St Mathias Church is in Tulse Hill, South London.
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Found nothing in France for Wilfred for the right time frame. Too many to trawl through in UK without additional info.
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Birth registration of Wilfred.
HUMPHREYS, WILFRID HARVEY mmn HARVEY
GRO Reference: 1904 S Quarter in KINGSTON Volume 02A Page 387
Wilfred (Transcribed as WILFRID on Anc* on 1911 census with parents, and on 1921 census in Tonbridge Kent.
John
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Wilfred's dob 28th August 1904, baptised 27th September 1904, his father Edward recorded occupation is Chief Accountant for Lambeth Borough Council.
John
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Thanks to johnhood and the info supplied - here's the marriage certificate.
https://archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr/ark:/33518/z3w7lt9q68mr/6801e5e8-b357-4bfe-82a1-b51ec33fbc87 (https://archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr/ark:/33518/z3w7lt9q68mr/6801e5e8-b357-4bfe-82a1-b51ec33fbc87)
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Name: Wilfred Harvey Humphreys
Death Date: 27 Jan 1987
Death Place: 46 Rue de Guisnes Tourcoing France
Probate Date: 9 Mar 1988
Probate Registry: London
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Wilfred died in France.
Name: Wilfred Harvey Humphreys
Death Date: 27 Jan 1987
Death Place: Tourcoing France
Probate Date: 9 Mar 1988
Probate Registry: London
Death address
46,Rue de Guisnes, Tourcoing, France.
Probate record image on Anc*
John
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Here's Wilfrid's bride's birth certificate:
https://archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr/ark:/33518/jb4013dsnkw9/7a1327ab-900f-49f2-83dd-98f043c6a4e6 (https://archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr/ark:/33518/jb4013dsnkw9/7a1327ab-900f-49f2-83dd-98f043c6a4e6)
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Very rough translation of the marriage Certificate – don’t know why the decision was made 8 months after it was noted! The change of matrimonial regime was probably in connection to who was to benefit from any inheritance. Note the use of the royal we for the registrar acting on behalf of the State.
No 291
HUMPHREYS
Wilfrid Harvey
and
DESOUBRIE
Louise Julie
Marie Joseph
Change of matrimonial property
regime. Decision rendered by the
High Court of Lille on the 17th
September 1968.
Noted on 10.1.1968
On the twenty-seventh of May nineteen hundred and thirty, at eleven am, before us appeared openly in the Town Hall: Wilfrid Harvey HUMPHREYS, wool merchant, born in Wimbledon (England) on the fourth of August nineteen hundred and four, twenty-five years old, dwelling in Tourcoing, 46, rue de Guisnes, son of Edward Llewellyn HUMPHREYS, accountant, and of Ellen Maud HARVEY, his spouse, housewife, dwelling in Wimbledon, 20, Manor Gardens, on the one hand. And Louise Julie Marie Joseph DESOUBRIE, unemployed, born in Tourcoing on the fifteenth of November nineteen hundred and five, twenty-four years old, dwelling there at 68, rue Winoc Chocqueel, daughter of Jules Joseph DESOUBRIE, wool merchant, and of Julie Félicie CASTELAIN, his spouse, housewife, dwelling in Tourcoing at 68, rue Winoc Chocqueel, present and consenting, on the other hand. No objections existing. The future husband and wife state that a marriage contract has been received by Georges Debosque, notary in Tourcoing. Wilfrid Harvey HUMPHREYS and Louise Julie Marie Joseph DESOUBRIE declared after each other the wish to take each other as man and wife and in the name of the law, we pronounced them as united in marriage. In the presence of James Dible, British Consul in Lille (Nord), and of Jean Desoubrie, wool merchant in Tourcoing, witnesses of full age, who, once the acte was read, signed with the spouses, the father and mother of the bride, we, Jules Brassart, Knight of the Legion of Honour and of the Order of the Crown of Belgium, Deputy Mayor of Tourcoing, acting Registrar.
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Thank you all for your information. I stand in awe of your 'ancestor hunting' detective work!!
If they were married and lived in France then in 1939 when the Nazi's invaded France they would both have been at risk especially Wilfrid being a British citizen who would have been locked up as an enemy alien. Wonder if they had to leave for the UK? Obviously if they did, they returned to France after the war. The war put a stop to the UK/British empire commercial wool trade and certainly would have stopped the trade in Europe.
Interesting Wilfrid's wife's father was in the wool trade. So was Wilfrid's mother's (Maud) brother as also the brother's sisters and also Maud's father and later for a short time mother. This is possibly how Wilfrid met his future bride, via business.
Johnhood I notice your comment that the probate record image is on Anc. I could not find it when I googled it and the UK gov site was also negative. Will try later with different name spelling combinations. It would be interesting to see who their children were.
Thank you again for all your information. Anton
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AntonP
Let me know if you'd like me to look into Louise Desoubrie's family and try and track down more info on her line.
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Reference here (1st column under La vie consulaire) to Wilfrid being nominated as British Pro Consul in 1939.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01s3t/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01s3t/)
and here (second column under dans les consulats)
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k50602181/f2.item# (https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k50602181/f2.item#)
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Interesting read about British citizens rounded up in France in July 1940.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/10/britons-rounded-up-nazis-occupied-france-internees (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/10/britons-rounded-up-nazis-occupied-france-internees)
So far I've only been able to track down lists of military POWs.
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Mention of Wilfrid as the fiancé of Louise + her parents in the the death notice of Roger Desoubrie in 1929. Column 5 under Necrologie.
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01s3u/ (https://www.rootschat.com/links/01s3u/)
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Manukarik thanks very much for all this extra info on Wilfrid. Yes, if its not too much trouble it would be interesting to get bit more info on Roger Desoubrie. As Wilfrid was on the edge of the diplomatic core - proconsul - possibly he would have been able to claim some sort of immunity and proceeded back to the UK with his wife?
I would really like to know more about Wilfrid and whether he and his wife had any children - any little Llewellyn Humphries running around North France today!!! Also what he might have dome after 1945 would be really interesting.
Can't thank you and others, enough for all this help. Anton
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You can see from Louise's birth certificate that she died in Tourcoing on 9 September 1985. The acte is not available on line but is number 925.
There is a 1906 Census entry for Louise and her parents. Not much info except that it shows her father, Jules, as born in Tourcoing in 1872 and was absent and her mother, Julie, as born in Tourcoing in 1878.
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Louise's parent's marriage certificate (10 July 1901, Tourcoing):
https://archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr/ark:/33518/30tvjx716c9k/923a31aa-4b19-47c9-a49a-783d8f142f6f (https://archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr/ark:/33518/30tvjx716c9k/923a31aa-4b19-47c9-a49a-783d8f142f6f)
Gives the following info:
Jules Joseph DESOUBRIE, born 27 May 1872, Tourcoing
- Father = Augustin Joseph DESOUBRIE, chef trieur (= head sorter?)
- Mother = Marie Victoire VERDOUCK
Julie Félicie CASTELAIN, born 2 March 1878, Tourcoing, modiste (= milliner?)
- Father = Louis Joseph CASTELAIN, died on 25 November 1886
- Mother = Marie Hermence HORENT, merchant
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Manukarik, thank you for further family info.
In the UK during the 19 and 20th century large towns generally had a trade directory with details of local businesses and business men. I was wondering if France and specifically the town of Tourcoing might have had one during the 1930s which has been digitised and might give more info on the wool merchants trading in the region?
I might also put the query on the 'Armed forces, WW2 Rootschat site, about what happened to Wilfrid once the Nazis had invaded France and if anyone knows of lists of British citizens held as enemy aliens.
Thanks again to all are helping me get more info about this family.
Anton
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Jules Joseph Desoubrie
Born 28 May 1872 - Tourcoing, 59200, Nord, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, FRANCE
Deceased
Parents
Augustin Joseph DESOUBRIE 1842-
Marie Victoire VERDONCK 1847-
Spouses
Married 10 July 1901, Tourcoing, 59200, Nord, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, FRANCE, to Julie Félicie CASTELAIN
Siblings
M Augustin Jean Baptiste Joseph DESOBRIE 1871-
M Jules Joseph DESOUBRIE 1872-
M Jean Joseph DESOUBRIE 1873-
F Marie Joseph DESOUBRIE 1875-1953
F Jeanne Aimée DESOUBRIE 1876-1904
M Gustave Louis Joseph DESOUBRIE 1878-
Family Tree Preview
Ancestry Chart Printable Family Tree
Fleurisse (Floris) Joseph DESOUBRY 1773-1837 Catherine Joseph DERBAURANGHIEN 1770-
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8 |
9
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Jean Fleurisse Joseph DESOUBRY 1805-1865 Sophie Joseph DUSAUTHOIR 1805-1856
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4 |
5
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Augustin Joseph DESOUBRIE 1842- Marie Victoire VERDONCK 1847-
|
2 |
3
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Jules Joseph DESOUBRIE 1872-
bit of info on Desoubrie ancestors for you
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An online book referring to the importance of cotton and wool to Tourcoing.
https://books.openedition.org/septentrion/52986?lang=en (https://books.openedition.org/septentrion/52986?lang=en)
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Thank you, Manukarik and Garstonite. Interesting reading. Anton
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Being ignorant of the records available in France and also maybe digitised and available on the web, (plus not speaking French) I was wondering if there were any town or municipal records of residents/rate payers or voters rolls, available after 1945? I would assume that the wool industry would then have been almost non-existent and was wondering how Wilfrid and family made a living after the war.
Also records of graves or obituaries as this might indicate if the couple had children.
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After 1945? Likely not online, maybe at the local library or archives.
The 1936 census is online (not name indexed) and luckily for Tourcoing is ordered by street name. In 1936 (if direct link doesn't work is page 553 in Tourcoing Sud), there are no children with them:
https://archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr/ark:/33518/q51wxjk4plhz/46a15861-452f-44c6-b71a-04ddd721f044
https://www.e-pro.fr/nord/preparation-de-la-laine/humphreys-gerard-roger_f2230569
- however the address is now associated with another Humphreys
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Thank you all for your information. I stand in awe of your 'ancestor hunting' detective work!!
If they were married and lived in France then in 1939 when the Nazi's invaded France they would both have been at risk especially Wilfrid being a British citizen who would have been locked up as an enemy alien. Wonder if they had to leave for the UK? Obviously if they did, they returned to France after the war. The war put a stop to the UK/British empire commercial wool trade and certainly would have stopped the trade in Europe.
Interesting Wilfrid's wife's father was in the wool trade. So was Wilfrid's mother's (Maud) brother as also the brother's sisters and also Maud's father and later for a short time mother. This is possibly how Wilfrid met his future bride, via business.
Johnhood I notice your comment that the probate record image is on Anc. I could not find it when I googled it and the UK gov site was also negative. Will try later with different name spelling combinations. It would be interesting to see who their children were.
Thank you again for all your information. Anton
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Hello my name is Sandrine Humphreys and my grandfather was Wilfred and grandmother Louise Desoubrie. My dad was Roger Humphreys and was a wool broker. Can I ask why you are researching my family? I came across your post really by chance . Please do contact me if you want. My dad my brother and I were born in Mouscron in Belgium. Hope to hear back from you