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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: MattW224 on Monday 20 February 23 20:00 GMT (UK)
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Charles Morris' death certificate (attached) states his mother was born in Gateside, Wales. I'm assuming it's a phonetic spelling, because I can't find any parish by that name. I also wondered if it's a rough translation of a Welsh word. Can someone estimate what parish this refers to?
There's a Gateside, Scotland, but the mother appears in the 1841 census (https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/8339302:8979) -- unlikely she was born there. Unfortunately, I haven't found any later censuses, which would be more specific about birthplaces.
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Hi
I'm wondering if Wales is wrong. His father is born Newcastle ?Wales and the birthplace of his mother might be Gateshead (opposite bank of the Tyne to Newcastle)
Just my first thought.
Gadget
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Where was the mother in 1841?
Does it state "Born in County"?
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Where was the mother in 1841?
Bedwelty, Monmouthshire, Wales
Does it state "Born in County"?
No -- and the same applies to the larger family, husband and three sons.
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Where was Charles in any censuses? This would give information about parents' nationality which would help in identification.
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Where was Charles in any censuses? This would give information about parents' nationality which would help in identification.
I haven't found the 1851 census, but here's 1841 (https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/8339305:8979) (Wales; Bedwelty) and 1861 (https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/12702851:8767?ssrc=pt&tid=113494319&pid=170187885500) (England; Durham).
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I haven't found the 1851 census, but here's 1841 (https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/8339305:8979) (Wales; Bedwelty) and 1861 (https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/12702851:8767?ssrc=pt&tid=113494319&pid=170187885500) (England; Durham).
You might have missed my first post:
Hi
I'm wondering if Wales is wrong. His father is born Newcastle ?Wales and the birthplace of his mother might be Gateshead (opposite bank of the Tyne to Newcastle)
Just my first thought.
Gadget
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Gateshead is in Co Durham
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I haven't found the 1851 census, but here's 1841 (https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/8339305:8979) (Wales; Bedwelty) and 1861 (https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/12702851:8767?ssrc=pt&tid=113494319&pid=170187885500) (England; Durham).
You might have missed my first post:
Hi
I'm wondering if Wales is wrong. His father is born Newcastle ?Wales and the birthplace of his mother might be Gateshead (opposite bank of the Tyne to Newcastle)
Just my first thought.
Gadget
Apologies -- totally forgot to respond. I suspect you're right, considering the Wales/England switch between the 1841/1861 census. I thought similarly about Newcastle when I started the thread, but didn't want to bias anybody -- really appreciate your insight!
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I have relatives who moved from Wales to Co Durham to work in the mines. Some of them then moved to Pennsylvania. I was born and grew up in Wales and now live in Newcastle so it seems highly probable to me :)
His parents' ancestors may have come from Wales originally.
Gadget
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Newcastle in wales is in the camarthenshire. It’s full name is Newcastle Emlyn
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Newcastle in wales is in the camarthenshire. It’s full name is Newcastle Emlyn
I checked that initially but could not find an entry for either a baptism or a census record for a ?Benjamin Moriss or similar. Also not found a similar to Gateside in Wales.
Add - only Gateside that I could find was in Fife. The pronunciation of Gateshead can often sound like Gateside.
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The 1910 Census in Randolph. Missouri has him and his parents as born England.
Immigrated 1869.
Findagrave:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01s4p/
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There is a marriage for him to a Sarah Jane Scott (as FaG) in 1859 St Nicholas, Newcastle upon Tyne Father as Benjamin Morris (as death cert).
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1861 Census
Westoe, South Shields, Co Durham
Charles Morris, 24, seaman (Merchant Services) b. Gloucestershire??
Sarah J, wife, 21, b. South Shields, Durham
but
1841 Bedwelty, Tredegar, Mon
Benjamin Morris, 35, Miner
Mary , 35
Robert 15
Moses 13
Charles 8
None born County
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1880 Madison, Illinois
Charles Morris, 46, coal miner, b. England
Sarah, 36
John, g, 18
Charles, 2
Benjamin, 8 mths
Note - FaG has Sarah b. 1833.
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1859 marriage
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGR4-TT8Y
Add - unfortunately, St Nicholas' images only go to 1855
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There is a marriage for him to a Sarah Jane Scott (as FaG) in 1859 St Nicholas, Newcastle upon Tyne Father as Benjamin Morris (as death cert).
Just in case you haven't come across the marriage in the newspapers.
The Newcastle Weekly Courant Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne and Wear, England
21 Jan 1859, Fri Page 8
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/119376011/the-newcastle-weekly-courant/
Sandra
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You really need to obtain his marriage cert to get his occupation. We know his father from the index on FS.
Marriage ref:
Newcastle upon Tyne, Q1, Vol 10b, page 128
Thanks, Sandra We don;t see you often in Wales ;D
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I think my hunch last night was correct Gateside = Gateshead.
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Newspaper article for Charles Morris -
Chariton Courier Keytesville, Missouri
17 Nov 1911, Fri Page 3
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/119376511/chariton-courier/
Not what your asking for but will post for interest. Sarah Morris lived to the ripe age of 95 years.
Passed away 6 October 1929
The Kansas City Star Kansas City, Missouri
7 Oct 1929, Mon Page 20
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/119376094/the-kansas-city-star/
Mentions of Sarah being born South Shields. Married and moved to Newcastle from where she moved the United States.
Moberly Monitor-Index Moberly, Missouri
7 Oct 1929, Mon Page 3
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/119376148/moberly-monitor-index/
The son Benjamin passed away in 1959
The Kansas City Times Kansas City, Missouri
20 Nov 1959, Fri Page 37
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/119376214/the-kansas-city-times/
Sandra
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Oh dear, here we go!
I found the ref to Sarah's obit but didn't clip as the query was mainly about Charles.
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There is a tree on Ancestry about the family but it has less than we have already found :-\
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Re my reply #14 which has him born Gloucestershire in 1861 census
I did find this
Merchant Navy ticket for a Charles Morris on July 19 1847 at Gloucester, Born Gloucester in 1833
I also found a First Mate certificate for a Charles Benjamin Morris issued on the 8 July 1858, Bristol
I'm not sure but I think the marriage cert is worth getting to rule in or out.
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I included Charles' definitive marriage certificate, and included Moses' probable one.
https://imgur.com/a/pJpK8hA
Probable 1851 census for aforementioned Moses -- cinder filler matches with fireman, though the enumerator botched his name.
https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1851wales&indiv=try&h=15510662
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Charles fits but not sure about Moses.
A ticket for a Benjamin Morris. age 32 b Canterbury, 2nd mate on the Hebden, of Scarborough 19 August 1836
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I think the 1841 census might well be wrong.
If Benjamin was at sea, he might not be listed.
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The link to the 1851 that you gave looks like it's for a Morris Morris not Moses :-\
Add - another site also has this record as Morris Morris
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Also, the Moses on the marriage cert, has his father as a shoemaker.
Added a snip from 1861
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The link to the 1851 that you gave looks like it's for a Morris Morris not Moses :-\
Add - another site also has this record as Morris Morris
Oof, that's what I get for composing that message from my phone.
I noticed the botched name, but suspected an enumeration error. The census is a year after the marriage, in the same parish, and one of two people named Gwellian Morris in the vicinity. Moses Morris is an uncommon name, and with a matching father's name, I was quick to suspect them being one and the same -- but maybe being too generous.
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The nearest for a baptism in Kent for Benjamin is
Chatham 7 April 1805 to Thomas and Sarah.
https://cityark.medway.gov.uk/wwwopacx/wwwopac.ashx?command=getcontent&server=files&value=P085-01-22B(2).pdf
Towards the bottom of page 23.
Not sure.
Chatham is a famous RN dockyard.
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I have been able to look up the marriage:
St Nicholas, Newcastle upon Tyne
Page 188
Entry 375
18 January 1859
Charles Morris & Sarah Jane Scott
Age: Both Full
Mariner
Both: This Parish
Fathers:
Benjamin Morris – Mariner
George Scott – Farmer?
Both Bride & Groom signed their marks X
Witnesses:
Robert Scott signed his mark X
Mary (Hutton Christine H-?)
Looks like mariner but could be miner?