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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: Peejay56 on Sunday 19 March 23 16:12 GMT (UK)
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How were Railway firemen/drivers on shift, recorded on census day?
My grandad is missing from the 1911 census, I know he worked for the L&YR out of Bankhall, Liverpool as a fireman. I am wondering if he was recorded somewhere else?
Edward Jackson, born 5/11/1886 Huddersfield, died 1945.
I can find him in all census records (including 1939 registry)in Liverpool apart from 1911
Worked for L&YR and LMS as fireman then driver at Bankhall, Liverpool from 1904 until his death in 1945.
If anyone knows how I can access rail records, or union records relating to him, or if anyone can find him in 1911 that would be fantastic.
Thanks for reading - Peter
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Was he married by 1911
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I have come across this in Relatives who were Signalmen in Burscough that night.
They weren't recorded in the Signal Box because presumably they didn't Sleep there, they were working a Nightshift and it wasn't a recognised property address ?
Their Wife and Children completed the Home Address Census each time.
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How were Railway firemen/drivers on shift, recorded on census day?
The instructions were that anyone who passed the night of Sunday 2nd April in the dwelling or who was alive in that dwelling at midnight was to be enumerated.
People who were on night shift (for instance policemen, railwaymen, watchmen or people travelling overnight) and arrived there on the morning of 3rd April could also be enumerated there.
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My grandfather worked for a railway company and was recorded in two places. One place being Manchester (the main office) and the other was in Devon.
The probable reason is that one address filled in the form on the actual night and the other form was filled in a day or two earlier.
I have another ancestor who was recorded on his ship accompanied by his wife and new born baby plus his brother. The other entry shows him living at home with his wife and several children but no baby. An independent enumerator filled in the census of him being aboard his ship and the other census form was probably filled in prior to the actual census date.
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CaroleW - He married in 1914.
Thank you all for looking at the matter, and giving some helpful replies.
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My father was a driver with the LNER and later BR. I remember that in 1951 our family was staying for a weekend with my aunt and uncle who insisted on putting us all on his form. Dad had already completed the form for home but he was insistent, so we are recorded twice. In 1961no problem he was on day shift. 1971 he had retired and due to him now being effectively blind I completed the form for them.
A driver would almost certainly be a member of ASLEF, rail union records are held by Warwick University.
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Redroger - Many thanks. I will look into accessing Warwick's records.
Peter.
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If he was on an away turn he will have been in lodgings near the shed where his engine was shedded overnight.
Unfortunately, the LYR personnel records will have been transferred to Derby following the grouping of the railways in 1923 as it became part of the LMS ... and the LMS records were all lost to a fire in 1951.
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Thanks jbml. I wonder if union records may give a little info?
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Union records, if they still exist, and if the union is willing to divulge them (bear in mind that trade union membership is classed as "sensitive personal data" for the purposes of the Data Protection Acts, so you're likely to meet a blanket response to enquiries of "we cannot reveal that information about anyone" ... even though it's only "personal data" of ANY description if it relates to an identifiable person still living) then it is not likely to tell you what link they worked or where they lodged on away turns ... it will be limited to their name, date of joining (and possibly leaving) and an address ... whcih may well have been updated on a "living document" basis so will only be last known address.
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jbml. good information - thanks. Actually I'd love to know his start date, if he was in from right from the start of his working career.
Cheers.
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Union records, if they still exist, and if the union is willing to divulge them (bear in mind that trade union membership is classed as "sensitive personal data" for the purposes of the Data Protection Acts, so you're likely to meet a blanket response to enquiries of "we cannot reveal that information about anyone" ... even though it's only "personal data" of ANY description if it relates to an identifiable person still living) then it is not likely to tell you what link they worked or where they lodged on away turns ... it will be limited to their name, date of joining (and possibly leaving) and an address ... whcih may well have been updated on a "living document" basis so will only be last known address.
The historic Trade Union records are held by Warwick University and are available.
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Thanks for that Redroger.
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If it is any help, one of the main candidates for my GGF is also missing from the 1911 census. In 1916, when he married, his occupation was engine driver. In the 1921 census he was an out of work engine driver, also for the L&YR. My grandmother was born in 1910 in Bromsgrove. The candidate GGF was based in Manchester. I have speculated that working on the railways enabled him to spend time around Birmingham to meet my GGM. The other candidates were in Wales so just as far to travel but less likely to do so.
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Thanks for sharing that cbowley, I hope you are successful with your search. Mine appears to be what they call a brick wall, and I'm not confident now of finding him.
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My grandmother was born in 1910 in Bromsgrove. The candidate GGF was based in Manchester. I have speculated that working on the railways enabled him to spend time around Birmingham to meet my GGM.
Very probably, the ideal work day a digram as it is known to those who use it consists of signing on, up dating daily safety notices and then driving a train for some 3 hours to a distant point, taking a person break, food, toilet etc and then returning to home depot with another train and signing off duty.
Needless to say few diagrams meet this standard, it is frequently the case that there is and was a long blank period in the middle of the diagram at a distant point. In this case on arrival report to the supervisor and if he has nothing for you he will allow you to go off into town provided you do not drink and come back at the appropriate time.
Plenty to meet a friend or befriend a lady! Often someone who works in the staff canteen if it is a large depot, station buffet or WHSmith news stall.
At Doncaster c1910 Mr Gresley agreed to buy a pack of dominos to keep crews waiting their return train out of the pubs near the station..
So still oan ongoing problem partly addressed by the 1990 Transport and Works Act which introduced mandatory random breath tests for transport staff, failures result in dismissal plus likely prosecution.