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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: Chrissie46 on Wednesday 22 March 23 06:22 GMT (UK)
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David Thomas 1792 - 1882 my 2nd gt grandfather born in Wales - died at Abergavenny . Married Sarah Evans St John parish 1833 - one son Thomas Thomas 1839 -1900 who came to Australia. I'm unable to go back further than this David Thomas - any suggestions please. Many thanks Chrissie46
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Can you please post their census records
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Thank you for your reply. This is my problem, I am unable to define which David Thomas is m 3 gt grandfather. I know his son was Thomas Thomas B 6/6/1839 in Wales -
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so.... you know the mothers name from the Australian marriage?
can you please post all the details from that document.
Modified to add - or perhaps he married in Wales and emigrated with whole family?
Can you please say which of the several Thomas Thomases who emigrated he is and who is his wife.
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Am I on the right track. Is David in 1881 living with his daughter Joanna Edwards 36 born c1844+/- 2 and he was born in Penmark. My reason for asking is that in 1861 census he is with a wife Mary and Daughter Joanna 17 bc 1844+/- 1 year, David born Penmark. If this is correct then Sarah his 1st wife has probably died and he has possibly remarried a Mary. This marriage cert MAY show who his father was.
John
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A possible birth
THOMAS, JOANNAH mmn MORRIS
GRO Reference: 1844 M Quarter in CARDIFF Volume 26 Page 371
John
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1871 census
Piece: 5373
Folio: 49
Page number: 25
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
John Edward 28 Head
Johanna Edward 27 Wife
David E Edward 1 Son
Sinah J Edward 2 Months Daughter
Mary A Thomas 12 Niece born Penmark
Births Mar 1871
Edwards Sina Jane Cardiff 11a 299
EDWARDS, SINA JANE mother's maiden name THOMAS
GRO Reference: 1871 M Quarter in CARDIFF Volume 11A Page 299
John
added
marriage
Marriages Dec 1868
EDWARDS John Cardiff 11a 351
Thomas Jonna Cardiff 11a 351
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There is a St John in Cardiff, but it looks like the one in Swansea. Can't see full image on post, but same page number.
Sarah Evans
Marriage Date: 22 Jun 1833
Marriage Place: St John-juxta-Swansea, Glamorganshire, Wales
Residence Place for both: Saint John
Spouse: David Thomas
Witness: John Lloyd - Watkin Jones
Page number: 55
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/Swansea/StJohn
Cas
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Death in Monmouthshire 1882 (as in your post) puts birth around 1810. How do you have a birthdate of 1792?
Deaths Mar Q 1882
THOMAS David age 72 Abergavenny 11a 46
What info do you have that this David is father to your Thomas Thomas b 1839.
Could you give all info you have on family? When did Thomas arrive in Australia?
Cas
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Thank you everyone for your input. This is what I do know - my 2 gt grandfather Thomas Thomas born in Wales about 1839 married Mary Matthews in 1868 in Swansea. Mary had a daughter Mary Anne (Morris) from a previous relationship. Then they had my maternal grandfather Evan - a son David and a daughter Sarah and they all came to Australia under the name Thomas on the "Star of India" in 1876. See attached record. They had another son in Australia - Thomas John who was known as John. Thomas Thomas may have been married to a Jane Owen C1861 before Mary.
1871 Census they were living at Banwell St, Llangafelach, Morriston, Swansea.
The supposed rest is that his father was David Thomas and mother Sarah Evans. 1851 census has them living at Bryntwad Street, Llangafelach, Swansea.
Many thanks Chrissie46
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Thank you everyone for your input. This is what I do know - my 2 gt grandfather Thomas Thomas born in Wales about 1839 married Mary Mathews in 1868 in Swansea.
What does the 1868 marriage certificate say about Thomas. Ie is he a bachelor or a widower? Who were the witnesses?
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I am unable to pin down the marriage certificate - all I have is the BDM search results details.
Thomas Thomas - District Swansea - 1868 Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar Volume 11A Page No. 665
And Mary Matthews - Swansea - 1868 - same quarter Volume and page no. I realized I have been spelling Matthews incorrectly. My apologies.
Thanks Chrissie46
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You might have to buy the marriage certificate then.
That will hold information about his father given by Thomas himself, as well as his status and names of witnesses.
You order it from
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
Unfortunately they don’t do PDFs of marriage certs so you will have to wait for snail mail. (We had a Christmas card arrive here (NZ) on 7th March that was posted on 11th December. Longer than it took a sailing ship to get here in the 19th century! A better plan is to have it sent to a friend or relation in the UK and then have them Scan or photograph it.
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Based on the last reply from chrissie46, 1861 census,
Piece: 5447
Folio: 21
Page number: 35
Thomas Thomas 34 Head Swansea
Mary Thomas 34 Wife
Sarah Thomas 12 Daughter born Michaelston (Comes under Neath reg dist)
Evan Thomas 3 Son
THOMAS, SARAH ANN mmn OWEN
GRO Reference: 1859 S Quarter in OF NEATH Volume 11A Page 422
Possible marriage
Owen Jane Neath 11a 705
Thomas Thomas Neath 11a 705
This marriage certificate may also hold useful information.
John
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Burial looks a good possible as maybe buried Michaelston with mother.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/MichaelstonSuperAvon
Address given at death was Morristown also recorded as imbecile in 1871 census, (meaning learning difficulties today). Birthplace given as Glamorgan. But as John has posted likely birth reg it would be Michaelston, also the birthplace given in 1861 census.
Death was registered Swansea. Michaelston different area (As mentioned - Neath)
THOMAS, SARAH ANN age 14
GRO Reference: 1873 M Quarter in SWANSEA Volume 11A Page 399
Burial
Sarah Ann Thomas
Death Age: 14
Birth Date: 1859
Death Date: abt 1873
Burial Date: 21 Jan 1873
Abode: Morristown (as spelt)
Burial Place: Michaelston-Super-Avon, Glamorganshire, Wales
Page number: 63
Explains why she was also not on the passenger list, also a possibility they named their own daughter after her?
THOMAS, SARAH HANNAH mmn MATTHEWS
GRO Reference: 1875 D Quarter in SWANSEA Volume 11A Page 655
Few deaths around age group registered for wife Jane Thomas in Neath 1861 - 1868. Looking at census she was born around 1835 some of her family are living Davies Row same address as Thomas Thomas & family 1861. A possible for death is 1866 age 30 registered Neath, just a maybe.
Cas
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Thank you for your reply. This is my problem, I am unable to define which David Thomas is m 3 gt grandfather. I know his son was Thomas Thomas B 6/6/1839 in Wales -
Are you sure about his father being named David? As there is this baptism that matches the date of birth you gave, 6th June, but birth year out. If not sure you need to obtain marriage cert to move forward, knowing you have correct family.
Thomas Thomas
Baptism Age: 0
Birth Date: 6 Jun 1834
Baptism Date: 29 Jun 1834
Baptism Place: Swansea St Mary, Glamorganshire, Wales
Father: John - occupation: tailor
Mother: Mary
Page number: 143
1851 - Swansea St Mary. The above Thomas age 16 with parents & siblings.
Piece: 2466, Folio: 70, Page Number: 57
1841 - Swansea, age 7 with parents & siblings
Piece:1426, Book: 7, Folio: 16, Page number: 23
Mother is Mary Owen going by likely birth reg of children. There is also this marriage.
John Thomas - Mary Owen
Marriage Date: 10 Sep 1832
Marriage Place: Swansea St Mary, Glamorganshire
Page 27
Cas
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I am unable to pin down the marriage certificate - all I have is the BDM search results details.
You will need to apply to the GRO for the marriage certificate. The one you mention is the only Thomas / Matthews marriage in 1868. This is the only way you're going to get a definitive answer as regards his father (and as a bonus her father too !)
Nesta
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I am unable to pin down the marriage certificate - all I have is the BDM search results details.
You will need to apply to the GRO for the marriage certificate. The one you mention is the only Thomas / Matthews marriage in 1868. This is the only way you're going to get a definitive answer as regards his father (and as a bonus her father too !)
Nesta
both marriage certificates would be very helpful to compare fathers details and occupations.
june quarter 1859
Owen Jane Neath 11a 705
Thomas Thomas Neath 11a 705
John
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Many thanks everyone for your assistance. I have ordered the Marriage Certificate. My daughter lives in Scotland, so I am having it sent to her, so that she can scan it and email it to me. Most probably take about 4 weeks they said. I will keep you posted. Chrissie46.
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Hello everyone, back on the air from OZ. The 2 marriage certificates arrived at my daughters place in Scotland, she took photos and emailed them to me. Thomas Thomas was married twice, first to Jane Owen on 3rd April 1859, as a bachelor, then to Mary Matthews 8th March 1868 as a widower. In that time his father David Thomas became deceased.
Now where do I go to find more information about David Thomas please? Trying to send the 2 certificates also.
Many thanks Chrissie46
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In anticipation of others asking.
Can you please list ALL the information on those two marriage certificates.
Including the names of witnesses, and occupations of the fathers
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I have tried to Zip file them. No go. The info is 1859 - Third April Thomas Thomas -23 years -Bachelor -Copperman from Cwmavon- Father David Thomas also a Copperman -marriage to Jane Owen age 21 years spinster - from Cwmavon - father David Owen also a Copperman - Neath registry office - James Hempthorne Registrar - witnesses John Willams and William Hughes Cox also mentioned Alexander Cuthbertson Superintendent Registrar.
The second one is 1868 at Swansea - No. 189 - 8th March 1868 - Thomas Thomas 31 years - widower - Smelter man from Morriston Llaugafelach - father David Thomas - Deceased and Mary Matthews 30 years spinster - Milliner from Morriston Llaugafelach - father David Matthews a Copperman.
Register Office - by Certificate before Jeremiah Daniel - Registrar and G.B. Haynes Supt. Registrar - witnesses John Fisher and William Thomas.
Many thanks Chrissie 46
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possible parents.... 1851 census at Copper Row, Michaelstone super Avon, Neath
David Thomas, married, aged 41 (1810), copper man, born Swansea
Sarah Thomas, married, aged 39 (1812), born Llangyfelach
Margaret Thomas, daughter, aged 21 (1830), born Swansea
Thomas Thomas, son, aged 15 (1836), born Swansea, occupation appears to say 'tending massons' ???
Mary Thomas, daughter, aged 8 (1843), born Swansea
Hannah Thomas, daughter, aged 1 (1850), born Swansea
The same family was at Copper Row in 1841
Added: this appears to be the right couple as on the 1861 census, daughter Sarah Ann, is aged 2, birth registered Sept quarter 1859 with mother's maiden name Owen. Thomas (24) is a copper smelter, Jane (25), and they are at 23 Davies Row, Michaelstone super Avon
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In 1861 David is at 7 Copper Row, Michaelstone super Avon, now a chargeman in the copper works, married to an Elizabeth, with his daughters Catherine (20) and Hannah (10) and stepchildren David, Elizabeth and Tabitha (Williams). In 1871 Elizabeth is widowed, with her daughter Tabitha.
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possible marriage of David Thomas to Sarah Williams at Llangyfelach, on 12 Feb 1831 (there is a Hannah Thomas birth registered with mmn Williams in Neath in Jan-Mar quarter 1849)
And then David Thomas to Elizabeth Williams, Jan-Mar quarter 1858, Neath
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Thank you Deirdre784 for all the work you have done. I believe you are spot on. Interesting to see the 2nd marriage also. I will add all this to my tree and then see if I can find more about David Thomas's parents etc. Chrissie46
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Thank you Deirdre784 for all the work you have done. I believe you are spot on. Interesting to see the 2nd marriage also. I will add all this to my tree and then see if I can find more about David Thomas's parents etc. Chrissie46
Sadly as he married in 1831 that will be difficult as fathers are not named in those days. Good luck
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Thank you again Deirdre784 - never knew that about marriage certs. I'm living and learning. Cheers Chrissie46
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Thank you again Deirdre784 - never knew that about marriage certs. I'm living and learning. Cheers Chrissie46
The detailed ones came in with registration from mid 1837. Only parish records before that and they varied hugely, some really old ones only a line in a book. In 1831 it was probably a printed book but only gave the church, date, names, maybe bachelor / spinster and of the parish of, and witnesses.
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Thank you again Deirdre784 - never knew that about marriage certs. I'm living and learning. Cheers Chrissie46
Chrissie46, i have sent you a PM, Deirdre
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I have a perplexing question - how do I search the Parish records for Swansea - 1810 & 1839, to see if I can find details of the Births of David Thomas and his son Thomas Thomas - please?
Many thanks Chrissie
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Find my past has a lot of Wales parish records (CofE) but with names like that it could be ‘needle in a haystack’ without any additional info.
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Also, have you checked the FamilySearch wiki
https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/index.php?search=Swansea+parish+registers+&title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&ns0=1&ns12=1&ns14=1&ns3100=1