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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: Nova67 on Friday 31 March 23 02:31 BST (UK)
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I ordered an original copy of what I presume is my 5x Great Grandmother's death certificate in 1849 from the Northumberland County Council only to find it was exactly the same as the GRO one I already had. The handwriting is exactly the same.
I ordered it as her age varies so much from the 1841 Census, by 28 years. Mary Pringle lived in Amble in 1841.
So does GRO also sometimes scan the originals rather than someone copying out the details when you order?
So baffled about her age and I do not know her maiden name.
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1841 census rounded ages of adults but it would not be a 28 year difference.
Who did Mary Pringle marry?
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Mary (maiden name Unknown). Her husband is listed as James Pringle, Husbandman, deceased. The witness is Ann Pringle (whom I assume is my x4 great-grandmother). She appears on the 1841 Census on the page before. Turning to the next image is how I found Mary.
Thank you.
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Also is 88 on the burial transcript on Free Reg:
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/58509b6ef493fd8e180f91da/mary-pringle-burial-northumberland-warkworth-1849-04-08?locale=en
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Can you please post a link or references for the 1841 you think is her?
Perhaps also for Ann
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Name Ann Pringle
Age 30
Estimated Birth Year 1811
Gender Female
Where born Northumberland, England
Civil parish Warkworth
Hundred Morpeth (East Division)
County/Island Northumberland
Country England
Registration district Alnwick
Sub-registration district Warkworth
Neighbours View others on page
Piece 836
Book 1
Folio 10
Page number 15
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Record details
Name Mary Pringle
Age 60
Estimated Birth Year 1781
Gender Female
Where born Scotland
Civil parish Warkworth
Hundred Morpeth (East Division)
County/Island Northumberland
Country England
Registration district Alnwick
Sub-registration district Warkworth
Neighbours View others on page
Piece 836
Book 1
Folio 11
Page number 17
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So, from your opening post I had assumed they were in the same household: just on separate pages, but they are actually two pages apart.
Mary age 60 b Scotland in a household with a James Pringle age 30.
And Ann age 30 being in a household with a John Pringle also age 30.
(All ages rounded down as 1841 census)
So I think we need to back track a bit.
How have you arrived at Ann?
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She is my 4th great-grandmother. Ann Pringle (nee Wanless) aka Agnes Wanless married John Pringle 14 May 1830 at St Mary's Belford Northumberland. A witness was James Pringle.
http://www.wanlessweb.org/blog/research/england/marriages-3/marriages-2/#Belford
We are probably going down a rabbit hole with this.
I have never found any further trace of the younger James Pringle on the Census with Mary.
Numerous DNA matches to descendants of John Pringle and Agnes Wanless. The Australian branch of Pringle descendants is large. There is definitely a NZ and USA branch. I think the Pringle's may come from Wooler.
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The Pringle's also seemed to me to follow the Scottish naming pattern with their children.
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There is another Ann Pringle in Amble on the 1841 Census, but presumably, she married John Shotton in 1846, so could not have been the "Ann Pringle" witness to the 1849 death.
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The Pringle's also seemed to me to follow the Scottish naming pattern with their children.
so.
John Pringle 30 born in county Ag Lab
Ann 30 born in county
Thos 7 all children born in county
John 7
George 5
William 3
Margaret 1
Mary 1
Implies John's father was either Thomas or John.
does the age 88 death cert you have actually state she is a widow of James Pringle?
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Just going back to your original question
If she was "60" in 1841 she could have been 64, or even more. so by 1849 66 or 68 would be reasonable and a common mis transcription of 66 or 68 could be 88.
That said - the image for the burial is on FindMyPast and Mary Pringle of Amble is clearly 88.
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You say your Ann on the 1841 census with husband John and children has the maiden name Wanless, which is the mmn (on the GRO index) of the youngest daughter Mary age 1 on the 1841. I would expect Ann's mother's married name to be Wanless unless she had a second marriage to a Pringle.Or am I getting myself in a muddle.
Cris
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I presume this is them in 1851?
John Pringle 43
Ann Pringle 43
George Pringle 15
William Pringle 13
James Pringle 9
Robert Pringle 5
Adam Pringle 4
Margaret A Pringle 4
Luke Pringle 1
PRINGLE, LUKE mmn WANLESS
GRO Reference: 1850 M Quarter in ALNWICK UNION Volume 25 Page 242
If I have this correct George Pringle married my Great-Grand Aunt Dorothy PURDY 1860 :)
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Do you have a bapt for Ann Wanless?
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So does GRO also sometimes scan the originals rather than someone copying out the details when you order?
When the death was registered the local registrar entered it in the register. He also had a 'copy' register, destined to be sent to the GRO at the end of the quarter, into which the entry would be made.
That would explain the handwriting being the same.
If you have certificates (rather than a pdf) then the GRO cert would say it was
"Certified to be a true copy of an entry in the certified copy of register of Deaths in the Registration District of (District Name) given at the General Register Office, under the Seal of the said Office, [followed by the date it was issued]"
The local register office cert would have a similar citation but say it was a true copy of an entry in the register in their possession. (i.e. the original register which was held by the District).
Death registrations, in particular, are often slightly 'out' for a true age, the information is given to the best knowledge of the informant.
Boo
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The known children of John Pringle and Agnes (Ann) Wanless are:
James bap. 1832
Thomas and John bap. 1833
George born 13 Jan 1836 per Masters and Mate Certificate (no baptism found)
William b. 1838
Mary and Margaret b. 1840
James b.1842
Robert b. 1844
Robert b. 1845
Margaret Ann and Adam b. 1847
Luke b. 1850
Eleanor b. 1852
Where the name is repeated it is for the child that died before them.
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Catching up on all the questions.
1849 Deaths in the District of Warkworth in the county of Northumberland
No: 241
When Died: Sixth April 1849 Victory Street Amble
Name and Surname: Mary Pringle
Sex: Female
Age: 88 years
Rank or Profession: Widow of James Pringle Husbandman (Deceased)
Cause of Death: Old Age Not Certified
Signature, description, and Residence of Informant: x The mark of Ann Pringle Present at the Death Victory Street Amble
When Registered: Twelve of April 1849
Signature of Registrar: Ana Hobson Registrar
And thank you TickettyBoo for your reply and all your transcriptions on Free Reg.
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If I have this correct George Pringle married my Great-Grand Aunt Dorothy PURDY 1860
Yes, Trish!!! ;D
I have George Pringle's death certificate. If you would like me to send you a copy PM me. I love that connection.
Agnes Wanless baptised 21 Feb 1808 • Lowick Scotch Presbyterian Church, Lowick, Northumberland, England
Agnes. Born in Wooler Parish, per Look Up on RC.
The parents were Thomas Wanless and Margaret (Allen).
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Have pm'd you re cert.
Some info on the Purdys that you might already have?
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=384600.0
Trish :)