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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: erica236 on Saturday 01 April 23 13:07 BST (UK)
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Hi, I am trying, with no success, to find military records, or any other information, about George Rule born about 1892. According to his marriage certificate to Margaret Burgess,1943, he was a Lance Corperal in the Pioneer Corps (Printer). The regiment number is unclear but looks like 13019383. His father was James Rule (Wood Turner), deceased. George was a widower but I have been unable to find a previous marriage. Address at time of marriage was Hevedon Road, Willesden, London. I believe he would have been born in London but he could have been Irish (as was Margaret) and that is a best guess! I can't find any conclusive records for him at all.
Any help would be much appreciated, thank you for looking.
Heather.
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His record should be with the MOD.
You can apply online but it costs £30 + a long wait.
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records
On saying that I've searched the MOD records for a G. Rule & it's not listing him.
Apply anyway.
1939 register has living in Alexandre Rd. Southend:
Mabel Porter
Margaret Rule b. 1/4/1895
George T(J) Rule b. 6/1/90
Jessie M Burgess b. 1922.
George is a copper plate printer.
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If nothing special happened to him, that is he didn't die and wasn't taken prisoner of war, there are unlikely to be any records of his service online. As mentioned by Jim1 his service documents are still with the MOD, although they may be in the process of being transferred, along with several million other service records, to the National Archives. Even if you are not related to him, you can request a copy of his records although there is a cost and a long wait involved. The system has altered slightly as of today, 1 April, in that you can make your request to the MOD without being charged upfront, and they will then tell you whether they hold his records or if they have already been moved to TNA. If this has happened you will need to re-apply to TNA but the good news is that charges are likely to be less at TNA.
If you don't think the expense/hassle is justified, you may be able to find out something about his service in the Pioneers by visiting the Royal Pioneer Corps Museum (http://www.royalpioneercorps.co.uk/rpc/history_museum.htm) website. In particular, take a look, under the downloads button, for pdf copies of the Pioneer Magazine which contains details of the activities of some Pioneer units during the war. The Royal Pioneer Corps Association (http://www.royalpioneercorps.co.uk/) has a Facebook page and a forum. Obviously there are unlikely to be many veterans who might remember George personally, but if you are able to find out his specific unit, you should find details about their role and where they served, on the forum. Sadly I don't think the forum is particularly active these days, but worth a shot.
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Background for George Rule. Born 6th January 1889, 78, Croseburn! Street Galsgow. Father James Rule (journeyman Wood Turner) mother Jane Rule nee' Taylor. Appears on Scottish 1891/1901/1911 census.
1st marriage to Robina Aitken 19th August 1910, Kelvin, Glasgow. Father James Rule occ "Wood Turner", mother Jane Rule nee' Taylor. George's occupation Journeyman Diemaker.
3 Rule/Aitken children born between 1910-14 in Kelvin reg district.
Family appear on 1921 scottish census
Robina died aged 41 in 1929, Hillhead, Glasgow,
2nd marriage 1942 to Margaret Burgess/McMoran.
John
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Info from 1939 war register.
Jessie M(Maxwell) Burgess. Born 1st May 1922 Maternity Hospital, Glasgow. Father Robert Burgess occ Dock Lab, mother Margaret Burgess nee' McMaron. Image records parents marriage 16.10.1911 Belfast.
Parents marriage
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1911/09962/5622322.pdf
Margaret Rule died as below.
Deaths Jun 1981
RULE MARGARET 1AP1895 SUNDERLAND 2 165
Margaret & Robert had a son Hamilton Abernethy Maxwell Burgess born 1926.
Margaret appears with Hamilton in 1948/49 electoral registers in Willesden, George NOT recorded. He has either died 1939-49 or they have separated.
John
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Thank you for all this. I am sure you have the correct person as it all fits with details on the marriage certificate. Even to the witness who was J Burgess. So I no longer need the army records!
George is the great grandfather of my son in law and has been a bit of a mystery up to now so Thank You once again.
Heather.
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Heather, it's a possibility that Margaret and George parted after 1939. Believe I have found him by himself in London until 1963 in St Pancras then nothing afterwards. The below death is a contender for his death
Deaths Mar 1964
RULE GEORGE aged 74 ST.PANCRAS 5D 46
John
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Father Robert Burgess occ Dock Lab, mother Margaret Burgess nee' McMaron. Image records parents marriage 16.10.1911 Belfast.
Parents marriage
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1911/09962/5622322.pdf
Daughter Margaretta born 18 May 1915 at Mount Alexander, Comber. Robert a private in the Royal Irish Rifles. MMN McMorran
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1915/01382/1568581.pdf
https://www.townlands.ie/down/castlereagh-lower/comber-castlereagh-lower-portion/comber/mount-alexander/
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Birth of Margaret McMorran
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1895/02221/1837979.pdf
John
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Birth of Margaret McMorran
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1895/02221/1837979.pdf
John
Good find, John :D
1901 census
House 11 in Cherryvalley (Comber, Down).
Margret aged 6 yrs
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Comber/Cherryvalley/1253924/
KG
***Edited to Add***
Cherryvalley townland
https://www.townlands.ie/down/castlereagh-lower/comber-castlereagh-lower-portion/comber/cherryvalley/
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Margaret's parents marriage.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/fd42471652947?b=https%3A%2F%2Fcivilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie%2Fchurchrecords%2Fcivil-perform-search.jsp%3Fnamefm%3Ddavid%26namel%3Dmcmorran%26location%3D%26yyfrom%3D1886%26yyto%3D1890%26type%3DM%26submit%3DSearch
Birth of sister Lydia confirming mmn
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02509/1930458.pdf
John
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Heather, it's a possibility that Margaret and George parted after 1939. Believe I have found him by himself in London until 1963 in St Pancras then nothing afterwards. The below death is a contender for his death
Deaths Mar 1964
RULE GEORGE aged 74 ST.PANCRAS 5D 46
John
I believe they must have parted as I have now found Margaret Rule on the 1949 Register, Willesdon, back with Robert Burgess and their son Hamilton. They were living at 15 Hoveden Road which was Margaret's address when she married George!
It's very complicated :
Margaret (Burgess) had a son, Terence, born 1934 (he was a twin but the second child died) and no father was named on the registration. However, she re-registered him in 1945, after her marriage to George in 1943, and named George as the father. I have the certificates.
I wonder if Margaret had a "fling" with George while married to Robert. He divorced her, she maried George then later regretted it!
When Margaret and George married she was the "divorced wife of Robert Burgess" but I can't find any records of a divorce. Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated!
Thank you for all your help. I am gradually building up a picture of events!
Heather.
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The regiment number is unclear but looks like 13019383.
Can you post a scan or photo of that part of the marriage record?
13019383 was a soldier named E Wilson born in 1899.
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Looking closely the 3 could be a 5?
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On the certificate it is clearly13019 - 83. The missing number is unclear and I'm afraid so is my scan!
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Looking closely the 3 could be a 5?
Looks more like a 6 to me but it doesn't help much. As Jim reported there is no mention of George Rule on the MoD listings of soldiers born before 1901 and discharged after 1920.
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It does look like a 6. Thanks for looking anyway.
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Heather,
Quote:
I believe they must have parted as I have now found Margaret Rule on the 1949 Register, Willesdon, back with Robert Burgess and their son Hamilton. They were living at 15 Hoveden Road which was Margaret's address when she married George!
I have found George & Margaret together on the 1946 electoral register living at this address. By 1947 Margaret is by herself, and 1949 Margaret with her son Hamilton. The Robert Burgess also in the household could also be a son and not her husband.
John
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Heather,
Quote:
I believe they must have parted as I have now found Margaret Rule on the 1949 Register, Willesdon, back with Robert Burgess and their son Hamilton. They were living at 15 Hoveden Road which was Margaret's address when she married George!
I have found George & Margaret together on the 1946 electoral register living at this address. By 1947 Margaret is by herself, and 1949 Margaret with her son Hamilton. The Robert Burgess also in the household I believe could also be a son and not her husband.
John
I wondered if this Robert was a son but I can't find a child of that name to either George Rule or Robert Burgess. That doesn't mean there wasn't one! As George seems to have left I did wonder if Robert had moved back in. On the wedding certificate George was a soldier in 1943 so perhaps he was away with his regiment?
Heather
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Heather, as a side issue re Margaret and Robert's children do you know the outcome of David 1913 and Margaretta 1915.
John
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Birth of Robert Burgess.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1891/02393/1892694.pdf
John
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Heather, as a side issue re Margaret and Robert's children do you know the outcome of David 1913 and Margaretta 1915.
John
Margaretta married Albert Dean Rowell in 1937, Hampstead, and they later moved to Sunderland where he was from and where Margaret McMorran later died. They had a son John in 1941.
I had not found David but now have his birth in Ireland in 1913. So far I have no other records for him. It seems likely that there would also have been a son named Robert born about 1912 but I have not found him!
Thank you for all your help.
Heather.
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Possible Death of David.
BURGESS
DAVID JOHN
aged 62
Mothers maiden name MCMORRAN
1975
601 / 697
GLASGOW, MARTHA ST
John