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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: ASmithy on Friday 07 April 23 16:35 BST (UK)
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I have hit a brick wall.
I need to find the children of John Hillary and Sarah Raymert, please.
I can see that a few 'Trees' on Ancestry are showing multiple children, however, none of these are very well sourced. Some have children born in Ireland or Scotland, others in York whilst my ancestor was born in Newcastle. It just looks very confusing and I do not feel they are the right families as they do not have sources to support the claim.
I got to these people from the Christening record of Edmund Hillary who was baptized on 6 September 1809 in Newcastle.
Some of the names on other user trees are Edmund (1809 Newscastle), William (1814 Unknown), John (1816 Ireland), James (1817 York), Thomas (1819 York), and Christopher (1822 Unknown).
They also have a marriage between John and Sarah which I am unsure is correct as it is in 1808 Prestbury, Cheshire.
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Is this the baptism you have?
From the Bishop's Transcripts available to view on Family Search (you need to be signed in to search and view but an account is free to register)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6G1W-F5Y?
Boo
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I never saw that record however it is the baptism I have for Edmund!
Unfortunately I cannot seem to find anything else for the other children.
Thank you for taking the time to reply to me.
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That baptism record for Edmund says his father was a private in 6th Dragoon Guards and he was a native of Middleham, Yorkshire.
His discharge to pension record is available on FindMyPast and also Fold 3. He served from Jul 1804 to Jul 1815 so its entirely possible that any children born during that time could have been born in England, Ireland or Scotland.
Boo
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John's pension record is on Fold 3 and says his trade was that of cooper
Which ticks all the boxes for this to be their marriage record from Prestbury Parish on Family Search
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-63V9-L5G?i=616&cc=1614792
There is a book available on archive.org
Historical record of the Sixth Regiment of Dragoon Guards
Search for the title and then you can view the book online (or download it as a pdf if you wish)
Online if you start at image 118 of the book you can see the movement of the troops for the period John served - not sure how specific that is - if it included the whole regiment or just part of the strength.
Boo
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Also on that bapt;
1st son. Father, Native of Middleham, Yorkshire, by his wife, daughter of James RAYMENT, Cambridgeshire.
With regard to Christopher, he married 1854 Hook, Yorkshire, to Rachel Corbett.
His Father was John a Cooper ***.
Christopher a Mariner.
He died a couple of years later.
Welcome to Rootschat A Smithy :)
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A complement to reply #3, here are contemporary newspaper accounts of their movements. Same uncertainty about individual units applies, but the sequence of events matches well with the births.
Added: according to the pension record at Fold 3 he was discharged at the end of July 1815, so these records don’t help with the births in Yorkshire. Oh well…
The four troops of the 6th dragoon guards, lately quartered at Newcastle, are on their march to Edinburgh.
Caledonian Mercury 14th May 1810
Tuesday morning, four troops of the 6th dragoon guards marched for Hamilton barracks. – They had for some time been stationed in Glasgow where their behaviour was such as became the character of good soldiers.
Perthshire Courier 1st April 1813
Newry, April 9. Three troops of the 6th Dragoon Guards have been landed at Donaghadee from Portpatrick,and passed through this town on their way to Dundalk. They have more of the soldierly and warlike appearance than any we have seen here since the Cambridge Light Dragoons. Their horses seem to be well chosen for the service, and the men and accoutrements conformable; they wear the old Roman helmet, which has a daring and military appearance, and the construction of which surpasses all the modern helmets, for ancient elegance and modern safety.
Saunders's News-letter 23rd April 1813
The 6th Dragoon Guards (or Enniskillens) have arrived at Liverpool from Dublin, about 300 strong.
Star (London) 26th May 1814
The following are the regiments quartered in Ireland:– [list includes] 6th dragoon guards
Caledonian Mercury 14th January 1815
The 6th Dragoon Guards has replaced the 9th in the garrison of Dublin.
Morning Herald (London) 12th May 1815
The 2nd and 6th Dragoon Guards, and the 3rd Dragoons, are ordered to Belgium.
Cheltenham Chronicle 27th July 1815
The 6th Dragoon Guards are ordered from Ireland to North Britain
Sun (London) 3rd August 1815
6th Dragoon Guards, in Scotland, notwithstanding their being in daily expectation of a route for York will, we have reason to believe, remain in the quarters they now occupy at Piershill and Hamilton Cavalry Barracks, at least for some time to come.
Military Register 10th April 1816
Saturday week a party of excise officers, aided by a detachment of the 6th dragoon guards, destroyed a most extensive private distillery carried on in a wood in the neighbourhood of Glasgow; so large was the work, that coolers were used for cooling the worts, and the mash tun equal to that of an ordinary common brewer. A considerable quantity of spirits were on hand the preceding evening, but had been removed before the officers got forward.
Saint James's Chronicle 11th July 1816
Thursday and Friday last four troops of the 6th Dragoon Guards (Carabineers) marched from Piershill Barracks, on their route for York, by Berwick, &c. The Scotch Greys, who are to replace them at Piershill Barracks, passed through London yesterday morning, on their way from Canterbury for that destination.
Morning Herald (London) 3rd July 1817[/list]
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Other makes sense then, would Sarah have travelled with them then?
What do you think the chances are of finding the locations of birth/baptism record for the other children?
Thank you for piecing together and finding all this information.
I’ll have a look again and write back if I have anymore questions if possible?
That baptism record for Edmund says his father was a private in 6th Dragoon Guards and he was a native of Middleham, Yorkshire.
His discharge to pension record is available on FindMyPast and also Fold 3. He served from Jul 1804 to Jul 1815 so its entirely possible that any children born during that time could have been born in England, Ireland or Scotland.
Boo
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Thank you for taking the time to write all of this. It has helped hugely.
A complement to reply #3, here are contemporary newspaper accounts of their movements. Same uncertainty about individual units applies, but the sequence of events matches well with the births.
The four troops of the 6th dragoon guards, lately quartered at Newcastle, are on their march to Edinburgh.
Caledonian Mercury 14th May 1810
Tuesday morning, four troops of the 6th dragoon guards marched for Hamilton barracks. – They had for some time been stationed in Glasgow where their behaviour was such as became the character of good soldiers.
Perthshire Courier 1st April 1813
Newry, April 9. Three troops of the 6th Dragoon Guards have been landed at Donaghadee from Portpatrick,and passed through this town on their way to Dundalk. They have more of the soldierly and warlike appearance than any we have seen here since the Cambridge Light Dragoons. Their horses seem to be well chosen for the service, and the men and accoutrements conformable; they wear the old Roman helmet, which has a daring and military appearance, and the construction of which surpasses all the modern helmets, for ancient elegance and modern safety.
Saunders's News-letter 23rd April 1813
The 6th Dragoon Guards (or Enniskillens) have arrived at Liverpool from Dublin, about 300 strong.
Star (London) 26th May 1814
The following are the regiments quartered in Ireland:– [list includes] 6th dragoon guards
Caledonian Mercury 14th January 1815
The 6th Dragoon Guards has replaced the 9th in the garrison of Dublin.
Morning Herald (London) 12th May 1815
The 2nd and 6th Dragoon Guards, and the 3rd Dragoons, are ordered to Belgium.
Cheltenham Chronicle 27th July 1815
The 6th Dragoon Guards are ordered from Ireland to North Britain
Sun (London) 3rd August 1815
6th Dragoon Guards, in Scotland, notwithstanding their being in daily expectation of a route for York will, we have reason to believe, remain in the quarters they now occupy at Piershill and Hamilton Cavalry Barracks, at least for some time to come.
Military Register 10th April 1816
Saturday week a party of excise officers, aided by a detachment of the 6th dragoon guards, destroyed a most extensive private distillery carried on in a wood in the neighbourhood of Glasgow; so large was the work, that coolers were used for cooling the worts, and the mash tun equal to that of an ordinary common brewer. A considerable quantity of spirits were on hand the preceding evening, but had been removed before the officers got forward.
Saint James's Chronicle 11th July 1816
Thursday and Friday last four troops of the 6th Dragoon Guards (Carabineers) marched from Piershill Barracks, on their route for York, by Berwick, &c. The Scotch Greys, who are to replace them at Piershill Barracks, passed through London yesterday morning, on their way from Canterbury for that destination.
Morning Herald (London) 3rd July 1817
[/list]
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You said you have access to Ancestry
The baptisms for James and Thomas were in Wensley parish and are available to view
James baptism 1817
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/62236/images/62228_324054000599_2876-00039?
Thomas baptism 1819
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/62236/images/62228_324054000599_2876-00051?
Boo
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A comparison of John Hillary’s signatures on the marriage record (upper) and the military discharge (lower).
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Lots of useful info there for you A Smithy thanks to Boo and AlanBoyd :)
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This, from his discharge, places John Hillary in Ireland in February 1814.
"in consequence of incontinence of Urine, occasioned by a fall from his Horse near the Man of War when escorting the Mail Coach in Feb. 1814"
The Man of War (or Man o’ War) is a famous pub in the village of the same name lying north of Dublin and about half way to Drogheda.
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Thank you for sending the links to the baptism records. I have grown stronger in confidence that the information on these trees are correct. Especially finding out that John was in the DragoonGuards.
The signatures on look very alike. A very smart way of helping identify something, to be honest. I will have to try and remember that.
Yeah, there definitely is, you have all done fantastic work! Thank you.
Oh that's a shame, So he was discharged in 1814?
I am at the computer now so able to spend a bit more time on it.
I did not know that the wife/family would go along with the regiment, I always assumed they stayed at home, to be honest. Very interesting.
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Could you provide a link to his Fold3 Pension record please? I am having trouble accessing the site as it keeps taking me to the warforcesrecord wesbite.
Thank you in advance
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Here it is – pages 133, 134.
https://www.fold3.com/image/584370451 (https://www.fold3.com/image/584370451)
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Thank you for sending the links to the baptism records. I have grown stronger in confidence that the information on these trees are correct. Especially finding out that John was in the DragoonGuards.
I suspect that the records on ancestry are, as they often are, 'indexed records' from Family Search, billed as England & Wales births and baptisms dataset.
Nothing wrong with that as long as folk are aware that these type of datasets are bare bones transcripts which are a 'pointer' to finding and viewing the original records to see if there 'may' be more info that has not been transcribed.
For the time period and area of Edmund's baptism the Bishop, Shute Barrington had an interest in genealogy and decreed that the clergy included genealogical info such as that found in the Bishops transcript image I gave you a link to.
The potential 'extra' info can be invaluable and can make a huge difference to the decision whether or not a particular record is the right one or not.
Bottom line is, no matter what a tree says, no matter what a barebones (child's name, names of parents and dates) record says its always worth firkling round to see if we can see the original record on the offchance that an extra tiny bit of info will get us further forward (or, indeed, backwards!)
The good news is that if you are unsure you have now found a place to ask questions and find out a little more about the how and where to search and find the info you need.
Stick around, read the posts, ask for help if you need it. It will pay dividends :-)
Boo
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With regards to Christopher his wife Rachel nee Corbett remarried 1859.
1861 we have;
Charles Winter 25 Head
Rachel Winter 26 Wife
John Corbett Winter 9/12 Son
Mary Corbitt 67 Mother-in-law
Rachel/Christopher only had 1 Son and he died soon after birth;
Matthew Colbert Hillary bapt 14 Aug 1855 Goole
Death reg Sept 1855
Cant find Christopher 1841/1851 Census but that is not surprising seeing he was a Mariner.
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Thank you for sending the link. I am unsure why Fold3 kept diverting me to War Forces Record after telling me because I am in the U.K. I should be there?
I totally agree. So much information on that one baptism help me put a lot together!
Thank you for Christopher’s wife’s census.
What do you recon the chances of finding a death for John? Do you think they are slim due to him free roaming around Britain?
I see that others have put Sarah’s death in the year 1823, with a burial in South Sheilds, Durham. This would only make her around 40 years old.
Thinking about it, with she had Christopher in 1822. A yea before she died however the baptism was in Wensley, Yorkshire. So within the year she moved from Wensley to South Sheilds? (if the date others have are correct).
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There is a Thomas Hillary in the 1851 census in Hunslet, age 32, pob Leyburn (which is the abode given on the Wensley baptism). He is married to a Mary, age 53 and there is also a Percival Terry, son, 14. (TH’s occupation looks like Botanist, and that is how it has been transcribed, but this can't be right?).
Anyway, West Yorkshire, marriage by License, Leeds Parish Church, May 4th 1845
Thomas Hillary married Mary Terry, widow. He is bachelor, waterman, and son of John Hillary, Cooper. One of the witnesses is John Hillary, who has signed.
I've added the witness signature to my previous image of signatures. Is it the same John Hillary? He would be ~62 at this time.
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Are these all the same guy? Anything to do with John Hillary the cooper?
Death
HILLERY, JOHN
Age at Death (in years): 62
GRO Reference: 1843 S Quarter in LEEDS Volume 23 Page 264
Burial
Mirfield, Yorkshire, 11 June 1843
John Hillery
Abode Sunny bank?
Age 62
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:68Z8-CCPW
Northern Star and Leeds General Advertiser, Saturday 10 June 1843
Deaths
On Sunday last, at the Leeds Infirmary, Mr John Hillary Cooper, late of Robertown, of a long and severe illness, which he bore with almost unexampled fortitude, aged 62
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ooh that's good jonw65
Especially as I was just about to post about a Sarah Hillary, wife of John, age 47 abode Robertown was buried at Mirfield in 1831:-)
ancestry link for ASmithy
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/7424356:2254?
Boo
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I've added the witness signature to my previous image of signatures. Is it the same John Hillary? He would be ~62 at this time.
I'd say its not close enough to the other two, but Thomas does seem to have had a brother called John so maybe him
Boo
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Should have said, the marriage record does not say that father is deceased.
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in connection to reply #21
There is a merchant seaman record for a Christopher Hillary, dob 15th January 1821. His place of birth is in Yorkshire, looks like Morfiend could be Mirfield?
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This may be John Jnr in Leeds 1841;
John Hillary 25 Lab born Ireland
Ann Hillary 25
Edmund Hillary 5
John Hillary 3
James Hillary 1
Cant seem to find John Snr in Yorks ::)
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Baptisms at Mirfield
17 Feb 1822
Christopher
Parents John + Sarah Hilrey
Abode Bank
Father oil Miller
22 Oct 1826
David
Parents John + Sarah Hillery
Abode Bank
Father Cooper
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There is a removal order dated 18 Oct 1827, Leeds sessions, for John HILLARY, his wife Sarah and children Edmund, John, James, Thomas, Christopher, Mary Ann and David from Mirfield to Layburn. Order to be respited until the next general quarter sessions. Again respited at the Wakefield sessions in January 1828. The removal order was confirmed in April 1828 at the Pontefract sessions.
Debra :)
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I can see a 'possible' baptism for Sarah Rayment, with a father called James in Eltisley Parish , Cambridgeshire which would be a match for the info on Edmund's baptism in 1809, Newcastle
Sarah Rayment baptised 6 Jan 1786
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NK1X-45S
so I looked for a mariage of a James Rayment and an Ann in Eltisley prior to this baptism
'possible' Marriage Eltisley, Cambridgeshire
5 Nov 1774
James Rayment - Ann Smith
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NK1X-45S
Bishop's Transcript image
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9T9-H963-Z?
as per for this time frame, not very informative :-)
Eltisley Parish Registers on Family Search have not yet been digitised.
Sadly the registers from the BTs were badly damaged and there are gaps one of which is the year Sarah was baptised, but if you page through from that marriage you may find baptisms/burials of possible siblings of Sarah
Boo
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From Debras info;
1861 Census
Gateshead, Durham**
David Hillary 36 Head Mar Medical Botanist born Mirfield
Hannah Hillary 34 Wife
Luke Hillary 11 Son
Christopher Hillary 8 Son
Mark Hillary 7 Son
James Hillary 4 Son
John Hillary 2 Son
Edmund Hillary 1/12 Son
David married 30 Aug 1847 Otley, to Dinah Hannah INGRAM
He is a Mechanic and describes his Father John as one also
His bapt was 22 Oct 1826 Mirfield to John/Sarah, Father a Cooper
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Responding to reply #29 about David Hillary – that's an interesting link to my reply #19 where Thomas Hillary in the 1851 census is apparently a botanist.
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I missed that Alanboyd, I must go back and look :)
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Yes I've seen it now. They are hard to track in Census though!
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FindMyPast has a Merchant Seaman record for: Edmund Hillary born at Newcastle 25/8/1809, serving as a fireman in 1851. First went to sea as Boy, 1827. When unemployed resides at Goole.
A marriage to Elizabeth Gell 8/8/1832 at Hook, Goole.
A matching burial September 29th 1864 Wesley Square, Goole age 56 (mistranscribed as Edward)
You can find this family in the 1851 and 1861 censuses where he is recorded as Edward Hillary with birth Newcastle (1851 census) or 'at sea' (1861 census).
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Thomas Hillary died 7 Sep 1856, age 38, and is buried at Leeds General Cemetery.
Wonderful info in those registers, which are online.
Says he was a Medical Botanist, and gives his place of birth as Mirfield.
Unfortunately the details for his parents were not filled in (but we know who they were anyway!)
https://explore.library.leeds.ac.uk/special-collections-explore/522397/
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Should have said, the marriage record does not say that father is deceased.
Did you look through the register to see if any of the fathers were said to be deceased?
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No, I didn’t know that was a thing.
I have to admit I’m pretty convinced that the evidence for the death of father John Hillary before the wedding of Thomas is quite compelling, and that the differences in the John Hillary signatures point to the witness being brother John.
added: I have now scanned 20 pages of the register bracketing the Hillary-Terry marriage and I see no deceased fathers. Lesson learnt!
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I've just checked my marriage cert, though it gives my Dad's name and occupation no mention of him being deceased, despite the fact that the priest not only knew Dad, he officiated at his funeral :-)
Boo
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So sorry I was not on yesterday. I felt a little rough yesterday, feeling better today.
I was so surprised to see how many people want to help with this! I am so grateful to each one of you! You have found and supplied me with so much useful information and tips along with their sources.
AlanBoyd, I feel that those signatures, look a little bit different from the other two so, from my point of view I don't think they are the same. Maybe I am wrong though, what do you think? The effort you put into putting them all together to try and see similarities is greatful too. I suspect the 1851 Census you found of Thomas is the son of John. I didn't even suspect this so it's news to me and I will add it to the family tree. Edmund (his brother/my linage) was a Waterman too.
Jow65, Thank you for finding these! With two of their children born in Mirfield, it looks like they grew to stay within/come back to this place! Thank you :)
Ticketboo, it maybe the case. I know that this John (1816/Scotland) married Anne Ingham. In 1843, his daughter Sarah Raymert/Rayment Hillary died when she was very young. She was 1 years old. His occupation was also Cooper and he gave the abode Number 18 Waterdown, in Leeds. He had a few more children, Edmund (abt.1836), John Hillary (abt.1839), James Hillary (abt.1841), Elizabeth Hillary (abt.1843)
Alanboyd, It does look like that could be Christopher, where did you find this record if you dont mind me asking please?
Thank you Trish for quoting that census, you definitely found the right John [jnr] there! :)
Jow, WOW a David? Where did that come from! lol. Thank you for finding that, Not sure how you even managed that as I never, and going by some of the tree's on Ancestry they never knew about a David either!
Dundee, Thank you. It would be awsome to hold a copy of this or to quote the place where you found this on my tree if possible, I was surprised to see David and now a Mary Ann? I assume she was born in Mirfield too?
Ticket, That is the baptism I saw too, I strongly believe this is correct especially after one of you found that baptism of Edmund which named Sarah as daughter of James in Camebridgeshire. I will be sure to follow that lead and go with what you say! Every opportunity to make the family tree grow!
So sorry it has been a long reply. You have all done such an amazing job working together!
Thank you all so much!
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Alanboyd, It does look like that could be Christopher, where did you find this record if you dont mind me asking please?
It’s at FindMyPast, “Britain, Merchant Seamen, 1835-1857”. If you have access this link should take you there:
https://tinyurl.com/22euuxne (https://tinyurl.com/22euuxne)