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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Special Needs Girl on Saturday 29 April 23 15:11 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Clarice Irene Green was born 4th February 1908 in Pontypridd, Glamorganshire to Gwladys Margaret Green.
In 1911 she is listed as Clarinde Green and described as the daughter of Gwladys’s parents - Ellen Elizabeth and Henry Vicary Green.
Gwladys married James William Cuff in 1915 in Bootle and on the 1921 census Clarice is listed as “wife’s daughter”.
I have found a marriage for Clarice Irene Green to John Smith in December 1929 in Withington, Lancashire and I am now stuck.
John Smith is the son of Arthur Henry Smith and his wife Sarah Ellen.
Arthur has died by 1921 and John is living at home with his mother and some siblings. He is an office clerk at John Alfred & Sons.
I have tried finding Clarice and John on the 1939 register but although I have found a possible address on electoral registers - 1110 Chester Road, Stretford, I cannot locate this address on the 1939 register.
Trying to see if they had children is impossible. SMITH / GREEN is as bad as Jones and Thomas and Davies!!! (and I’ve plenty of those!!)
I have tried looking for John Alfred coal merchants but been unsuccessful.
Is there anyone who can point me in the right direction so that I can try to find any descendants of Clarice and John.
(I know that Clarice had 2 brothers and I have researched them thoroughly but on finding descendants they know nothing about Clarice.)
Thank you in anticipation
SNG
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I wonder if finding a death for Clarice would help. Clarice Irene are good names even if Smith isn't!
If she was a widow there's a chance a child (if she had one) was the informant and give you a name to investigate.
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Here's one
Clarice Irene Smith born 4 Feb 1908
death 1996 Bury
so as the birth date matches you could take a chance on the death certificate having some information.
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address appears on 1939 register on FindMyPast but seems to be empty!
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1110 Chester Road, Stretford
Stretford M.B.
Lancashire
England
John
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Trying to see if they had children is impossible. SMITH / GREEN
Appreciate the difficulties but you could check births a year or two after the marriage in the same district they got married. There might be an unusual name that sticks out for you to follow up.
Edith Smith born Dec 1931 same district as the marriage with mothers name Green.
Could rule her out if nothing else.
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Do you know John Smith's approx birth year
John
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The census returns I’ve found indicate John Smith was born in 1903, John. Sorry I should have put that in my original message.
Thanks Milliepede. I’ll do some research on Edith Smith.
Yes John I discovered the fact that the address 1110 Chester Road was missing in 1939.
Thanks for the dod Milliepede, I’ll chase that one up.
Thanks everyone for your help. It is very much appreciated.
I’m normally researching Wales but for some reason Gwladys and some of her siblings moved to Lancashire after their mother died, sometime between 1911 and 1921.
Yes probably work.
SNG
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John's birth
SMITH, JOHN MORRIS
GRO Reference: 1903 S Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 957
Possible death
John Smith
16 Jun 1903 Jul 1982 Jul-Aug-Sep Bury Greater Manchester
there is a John Smith with that dob living in Stretford, married, Clarice not with him though. Not sure if his occupation possibly matches that of 1921 census though
John
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Possibly Clarice in 1939 Cheshire
Lymm Ud
dob 4/?/1908, image difficult to read, but does look like Feb, and is married.
John
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Thanks John, I’ll check that now.
SNG
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Just checked and the transcriber has it as December. Mind you the original is hard to read.
Wondering why she wouldn’t be with hubby though at that time because I wouldn’t have thought someone born in 1903 would have signed up yet.
Is there anywhere that would give details about the John Alfred & Sons coal company?
List of employees.
Where it actually is?
Can I ask how big an area is the registry area of Bury
Does Withington come under the same area? She married in Withington St Paul, Lancashire so I’m presuming she must have lived in that area somewhere.
Thanks
Pam
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I’ve found the electoral register for 1939 and Clarice and John are living at 1110, Chester Road, Stretford.
It seems that only the 1939 electoral register is available on ancestry.
Do you know if there is anywhere else which has these registers?
Thanks
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It’s John Aldred, Coal merchant. Not John Alfred.
First mention I can see in papers is 1888. - an occasional worker took his horse to the vet as requested, then walked it to Miles Platting where he tried to sell it fo £15 and ended up selling it for 25 shillings.
57a Ordsall Lane, Salford in the 1920s
If you search by employer “John Aldred” in 1921 you can get quite a list of workers
Added, John Aldred on a Jury Salford Assizes in 1880 (coal merchant Litte Hulton)
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Maybe she'd been evacuated - they did move both mothers and pregnant women
The John Smith in Stretford b 16 June 1903 must be yours as his occupation relates to the coal merchants
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I have also found Clarice and John living at 78 Trafford Grove, Stretford in 1931.
Sadly I have no idea of where places in Lancashire are.
Where is the register office for Stretford please.
Thanks for pointing out the name of the coal merchant mckha489.
I love the story about the horse!!
Thanks
Pam
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Stretford is in Barton upon Irwell reg. (Found by picking through free BMD)
Just two Smith/Greens 1930 & 1932
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Thanks mckha489
I think I have just found a possible death for John Smith too after using the dob 16 June 1903 that Mabel and John found.
Q3, 1982.
I’ll go and check those births now Makha…. Thanks
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Smith Children whose mother's maiden name was Green
from www.lancashirebmd.org.uk
1929 I (female) registered Didsbury
1930 G I (female) registered Manchester **
1937 H A (male) registered Withington Hospital*
1939 C R (male) registered Manchester South*
added * these 2 children are with their mother Mary in 1939 and so not 'yours'
** possible marriage for this one in 1950 Manchester Register Office or Registrar attended.
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Thanks Heatherjulie
Thanks to you all for your help. I don’t think I am going to find any children of John and Clarice unless I can find electoral registers for the 1950s and 1960s and may find family members who can vote.
I had thought Clarice would have used Christian names of members of her family such as her motyer’s name - Gwladys (sometimes spelled Gladys) or Margaret or even Irene. Her grandfather was Henry but of course we are talking of the 1930s when many parents stopped using the family names and started using other names.
Hopefully someone from this branch of the family will want to trace their family tree and my husband will get a DNA match.
At the moment there is only one DNA match (which was only done after Christmas 2022) to one of Clarice’s maternal uncles and they don’t know anything about the family.
It’s one of those lines where the mother died young and the children all went to different places.
Sad.
Thanks once again for all your help.
Pam