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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: Special Needs Girl on Friday 12 May 23 20:00 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I have spent countless hours searching for more information about Ellen Mahoney, born Q4, 1864 Newport Monmouthshire, mother’s maiden name FYNN.
Ellen married Thomas GEORGE Q4, 1884 in Newport. Thomas died Q2, 1886 aged 65 years.
My husband believes he has found her living at 1 Worcester Terrace, Bristol on the 1891 census and she is a cook and domestic but ………. has he????
Ellen is in Cardiff by 1901 because she marries widower Thomas JONES in St David’s RC Church Cardiff on 9th February 1901.
On her marriage certificate Ellen gives her father’s name as Florence Mahoney and his occupation as a “sailmaker”.
Hannah O’Callaghan and Francis Mulhollen are witnesses to the marriage. Whether they are friends or relatives or just parishioners of the church we don’t know.
Her address is given as 20, Pembroke Terrace, Cardiff and she is a widow.
Prior to marrying Ellen, Thomas lived in Station Terrace, Cardiff with his wife Sarah, before her death in 1897 and after with some of his children. (Thomas and Sarah had about 14 children and she died in childbirth in 1897.)
After marrying, Ellen and Thomas lived in Howard Street, Cardiff then in 1902 they lived in Silver Street, Cardiff.
Thomas JONES died on 19th May 1906 so Ellen was a widow again.
Meeting a descendent of one of Thomas’s children a few years ago, we were told that Thomas’s children “fell out” with him because of the marriage and the fact that she took all his money.
We didn’t think the JONES family were very rich but doing further research on the JONES family discovered that along with his home in Station Terrace, Thomas JONES collected the rents of a few houses in Cardiff that he held the LEASES for. (He was left them in the WILL of his father David).
Using Kelly’s Directory, Ellen was head of the house in Station Terrace in 1907 and was still there in 1912.
Of course we now know why there was animosity with Thomas’s children. It’s obvious that Ellen inherited the leases of the properties and so collected the rents. Thomas did not leave a Will.
My husband would like to know what happened to Ellen.
Also the answer to the question - how long would someone be able to collect the rents on property that they hold the leases for?
How can we find out more about Property Leases.
Many thanks for all your help.
SNG
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Freebmd has a death for Florence Mahoney (male) aged 56 March qtr 1867 Newport 11a 129
There is a tree on Ancestry showing wife as Margaret Mullen & his father as James. Florence was b Cork
It shows Ellen as b 1856
Perhaps the tree owner may be able to help with more info
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Thanks CaroleW.
I’ll check it out. SNG
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I found that family on the census CaroleW but ruled it out because of the dob.
I know some people have “made up” names of fathers when marrying but because it was such an unusual name I thought perhaps Ellen hadn’t in this case.
SNG
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Buying a pdf copy of Florence's death cert may help but death certs aren't always the best source of info. If his wife reported his death it gives you a name
Unfortunately a chunk of the Newport Monmouth 1861 is missing
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The 1871 has a 15yr old Ellen Mahoney b Newport with widowed mother Margaret aged 50 plus a number of siblings - Piece 5346/27/3
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My husband believes he has found her living at 1 Worcester Terrace, Bristol on the 1891 census and she is a cook and domestic but ………. has he????
1891 1969/55
Ellen George, Widow, 31 yrs b Newport, Monmouthshire
This looks very likely.
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The 1871 has a 15yr old Ellen Mahoney b Newport with widowed mother Margaret aged 50 plus a number of siblings - Piece 5346/27/3
Just in case - 1881 5263 /126/18
Births Newport
1856 Ellen Mahony mmn Mullins
1860 Thomas Mahoney mmn Mullins
1864 Margaret Mahoney mmn Mullins
Older children from 1871 - b Ireland
Timothy https://www.rootschat.com/links/01sap/. *but mother is shown as Peg Sullivan
James https://www.rootschat.com/links/01sam/
Daniel. https://www.rootschat.com/links/01sal/
Plus
Denis 1838 https://www.rootschat.com/links/01sao/
Mary 1844 https://www.rootschat.com/links/01san/
Marriage of Florence Mahony and Margaret Mullins
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01sak/
I think there are other Ellen Mahoneys b Newport so not sure but hopefully this family are the right one.
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Thanks Haywood for all that information. I have looked at the census return for that Ellen and because it gives her year of birth as 1856, ruled it out.
The GRO lists Ellen’s birth as Q4, 1864 and her mother’s maiden name as FYNN.
I have looked at a marriage for Mahoney / Fynn but not found anything. This could mean that they were not married but assumed it. I know today there has to be proof etc that the father is present when registering a child.
I have also searched for Mahoney / Flynn thinking that there could be an error.
I am assuming Ellen, when JONES, stayed in Cardiff but again two common names.
Thanks for the info on the missing Newport Census in 1861 CaroleW. That doesn’t really help though because Ellen wasn’t born until 1864.
I must admit that until seeing the name of Florence as her father’s name when we first bought the marriage certificate many years ago, I thought there had been a mistake and he was Horace!!!
It seemed to be a popular name at the time though.
Thanks for all your help. I will keep looking.
SNG
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Do you have that birth certificate for 1864?
Where do you have her on censuses with a birth year of 1864?
Is this her in 1901 4976 /50/21
with Thomas in Cardiff.
She is 38yrs there born abt 1863
In Bristol she is 30 yrs born abt 1861.
Do you have her in 1911 and later?
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You write:
I have also searched for Mahoney / Flynn thinking that there could be an error.
Newport births
1859 William Mahoney mmn Finn
1860 Ann Mahoney mmn Finn
1864 Ellen Mahoney mmn Fynn
1866 Margaret Mahoney mmn Flinn
Marriage
1854 Newport
Michael Mahony and Ann Finn
1881 5261 /13/19
Michael and Ann Mahoney with children
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With regard to Ellen, daughter of Michael and Ann:
Marriage
1883 Newport
Edward Basham and Ellen Mahoney are on the same page.
1891 4371 /8/11
Edward and Ellen Basham and children are living next door to Michael and Ann Mahoney and family.
You need to see the birth certificate for the Ellen you think is yours to check the fathers details.
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You need the first marriage certificate to Thomas GEORGE in 1884.
The Ellen who was the daughter of Florence and Margaret was a barmaid in 1881 and lived in Castle Street. Her brother Timothy was a beer house keeper (also in Castle Street) so it is likely that she was working for him and might still have been at the same address in 1884. The information on the marriage cert should confirm for you if it is her or not. You will also have witnesses' names.
I also thought that the Ellen born 1864 was the daughter of Michael and Ann.
Debra :)
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Thanks Dundee and Heywood.
Yes she is with Thomas Jones in 1901 living in Station Terrace, Cardiff..
She married him in February 1901.
That is where she gave the name of her father as Florence Mahoney.
As it was such an unusual name but I couldn’t find her with a Florence as father on the 1871 and 1881 census.
As I said, my husband thinks he found her on the 1891 census in Bristol.
Looking at Kelly’s directory we know she stayed at Station Terrace for a number of years.
Thomas Jones had been left the leases on a couple of houses in Station Terrace by his father.
Thomas did not leave a Will so Ellen must have inherited the leases and rents but decided to live there after Thomas died.
I’ve looked for Ellen as Ellen Jones on the 1911 and 1921 census but cannot find her.
I have found a few possible deaths in Cardiff for her (ages at death fit) :
Q1, 1913. Aged 49
Q1, 1921. Aged 56
Q1, 1927. Aged 63
Q2, 1932. Aged 69
So unless she has married for a third time I am assuming one of those deaths is her.
It doesn’t alter the fact that I cannot find her on the 1911 census especially as Kelly’s directory gives her address as Station Terrace in later years.
I seem to have spent so long looking for her I thought another pair of eyes might find what was “staring me in the face” - that’s usually what happens to me!
SNG
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Perhaps the first marriage certificate would help as Dundee suggests.
However, from the records, it seems unlikely that she is your first choice of Ellen, b 1864 with mmn Fynn.
The 1867 death for Florence Mahoney might be useful.
I noticed earlier a birth and death for Florence Mahony mmn Mullins in Newport 1854. I hadn’t seen that when I was searching yesterday,
Did Ellen have any children?
Is there a number for Station Terrace?
Perhaps she didn’t live there but was the owner.
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It doesn’t alter the fact that I cannot find her on the 1911 census especially as Kelly’s directory gives her address as Station Terrace in later years.
The address is 12 Lower Station Terrace in Kelly’s, 1911.
I found George Comden at 10 Lower Station Terrace and looked for him in 1911.
1911 summary books show that number 12 is uninhabited :(
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Don't know if it helps but first husband died in the workhouse, maybe Ellen did not stay in the marriage?
Newport Union Woolaston House DEATHS 1878-1889
Burial: 9 Apr 1886
Surname: GEORGE
Forename: Thomas
Residence: St. Woollos
Age at death 65
Occupation: Haulier
Burial paid by Cemetery Dissenters Ground
Cas
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A possible appearance of Florence?
The Cardiff and Merthyr Guardian 16 May 1857
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3294072/3294078/22/%22florence%20mahoney%22 - towards bottom of first column
ST. NICHOLAS PETTY SESSIONS.—FRIDAY (Before Sir George Tyler, the Revds. J. M. Traherne, W. Bruce, and R. T. Tyler, and Capt. Jenner).
... Cornelius Ford and Florence Mahoney were charged with drunkenness in the morning of the 10th of April. P.C. Rodman having deposed to the defendants being very drunk and fighting at three o'clock in the morning of the day named, they were fined 5s. each and costs.
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Indeed, a male Florence pops up a few times
In newspaper reports in 1874 (driving a wagon in Llandaff with no reins) and in 1893 a vote of condolence was also passed with Mr Florence Mahoney, a well known and respected Irishman in Cardiff, on the death of his only son
This chap appears to be born c1833, married to Catherine and a general labourer in Penarth in 1881
separately there's a Florence b c1888 of Lower Bailey St killed in the Wattstown mining disaster in 1905
Florence b c1833 marries Mary Anne Whales in Trevethin in 1858
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Florence was a very popular male name in Ireland; it pops up many times in the RC registers in Cardiff.
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I think it is a Cork name?
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Certainly was a large Cork representation in Cardiff 😀
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Yes, I have noticed that over the years on here :)
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Thanks for all that information regarding Florence. Very interesting reading.
Thanks also for the information about Ellen’s first husband Thomas George. Ironically Thomas Jones died in what was a workhouse in those days.
Thomas Jones is buried in a pauper’s grave in Cathay’s cemetery and not with his wife who was buried in St Mellons and had a large headstone.
We could not understand why TJ wasn’t buried with Sarah as they had had lots of children together.
I mentioned in an earlier post that the family “fell out” with their father but we think we now know why. Sadly we cannot go back to the person who told us about this family story because she has now passed away. Yes I know it would have been family folk-law but usually there is an element of truth in these stories.
We discovered a couple of weeks ago that TJ’s father left a Will. Among his effects he left rents from the lease of property in Station Terrace to TJ.
Obviously we didn’t know this fact when looking through Kelly’s Directory and just assumed that Ellen was living there as her name was given.
If the property was uninhabited in 1911, that fits with the story about the children leaving home and because TJ did not leave a Will, Ellen has inherited the rent from the leases.
We took her year of birth from the age she gave when marrying TJ in St David’s RC Church in Cardiff. It also fits with the 1901 census.
I had wondered if she married again before the 1911 census but because her name is still Ellen Jones in the Kelly’s directory, thought not.
We do not believe that Ellen had any children with either husbands. The relative that shared the story about her implied that Ellen did not like children. She certainly did not want to look after Thomas Jones’s younger children, aged 12, 9 and 7 when she married him so they went to live with older siblings.
SNG
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Thanks for the update. :)
Ages are often not that reliable. From the information you have given, she would only be about 22 years old when she married Thomas George who seems to have been about forty years older than her.
Do you not have that marriage certificate to check the details?
I realise it would not be part of your research but it would hopefully confirm her father etc.
The witnesses might be helpful in placing her too.
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Thanks heywood.
Despite my suggestions from the comments made, my husband is of the opinion that because Ellen married his great great grandfather five years before he died and didn’t have a child with him there’s not much point in getting certificates for her.
He just wants to know what happened to her after TJ’s death.
Sad that both husbands died in the workhouse. We had wondered if she had remarried again but if she became a “lady of means” probably didn’t need to.
I will keep looking and if I find anything will let you all know.
Thanks for all your help. It’s very much appreciated.
As I said at the beginning, another pair of eyes often find what has been “staring me in the face”.
Diolch SNG
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Yes, I thought the same - not really your research.
It would be interesting to know where she went - hopefully one day!
Best wishes for you4 future searches.
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I didn’t expect to be posting again so soon, but I wondered if anyone could check this record for me, if allowed and if anyone has a subscription to FOLD 3. (I do have subscriptions for ancestry & FindMyPast)
I have found an Ellen Jones as an “unmarried wife” to a soldier.
Despite searching for James Horan living in Bridgend in 1921, I cannot find one.
Obviously James might have been killed in action during WW1
I cannot find any military records either.
Many thanks
SNG
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I can see an index
Ellen Jones birth 5th August 1864 - unmarried wife
Residence Ogmore Vale
James Horgan (not Horan)
Death 13th May 191HMS Golinth (presumably Goliath)
Rank A B
Service number 119500
Link to CWGC site - hope it works https://www.rootschat.com/links/01sat/
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There is a newspaper snippet on Find my Past about the death.
27 May 1915 - Welsh Gazette - Aberystwyth, Cardiganshire
It says he is from Cardigan but I can’t see the rest of the article.
Navy War Grave Rolls
James Horgan. Rank AB
Birth 25th August 1865 St Michaels, Pembroke
Royal Navy
Cause of Death Killed or died as a direct result of enemy action
Official Number 119500. (Dev)
Death 13 May 1915
Ship HMS Goliath
Location of Grave Not recorded
Relatives Notified and Address
Son: JCGHorgan, 2, Dryn St
Cadna Nr Bridgend, Glamorgan
*I think this should read Bryn Road and perhaps Cwmdu?
This looks like him in 1911 but his wife then was Mary Ann
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7J5-WM5
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It looks as though Mary A Horgan died in Pembroke in 1913 - see Free BMD note added to the entry.
The son James is in 1921 census with the people named - his aunt and uncle Sargent.
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James is also mentioned briefly in this roundup of Ogmore deaths in action
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3886118/3886121/22/%22james%20horgan%22
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Thanks Mabel.
That’s the article where I found the likely address rather than quoting the transcription from Fold3 index.
Of course, we don’t know if this is the right Ellen.
I have tried searching Welsh newspapers with the Cardiff addresses quoted earlier and then this one but to no avail.
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Thanks for the information about James Horgan.
I did think I had found him in the 1911 census but because of the Cardigan connection didn’t think it was the right one. Obviously because he had been killed that’s why he’s not on the 1921 census.
Interesting about Ellen’s birth day. It will be interesting to see if it matches.
I’ll look for the newspaper on FindMyPast tomorrow now.
Thanks everyone.
SNG
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Interesting about Ellen’s birth day. It will be interesting to see if it matches.
What are you matching it to?
Debra :)
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The dob when with James Hogan was the 5th August 1864 as quoted by Heywood.
(Sorry I haven’t figured out how to insert quotes from postings)
She seems a very elusive woman
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Hi everyone,
I thought I would fill you in on Ellen Mahoney.
Thanks to all your help and purchasing certificates etc. I have solved her mystery.
Ellen’s birth was registered as MAHONY in 1856 and her mother was Margaret Mullins.
Ellen married Thomas George in 1884 and her brother and sister were witnesses to the marriage in St Mary’s RC Church, Newport. They had a child Mary Ellen in 1885. Sadly Mary died in 1886.
You may have seen my question about the ship CRINDAW on Rootschat.
Sadly the ship finished its working life in Tonnay Charente, France.
Thomas was a Second Mate and fell into the water and drowned in January 1888.
Ellen married Thomas Jones in 1901 and she became a widow again in 1906.
(Thomas Jones and Heavitree Asylum question on Rootschat)
She was living in Cairns Street, Cardiff in 1911 but was admitted into Dulwich House, a Convalescent Home, in Cardiff in 1912 and passed away there in September 1912.
Her death was registered by her niece. It took me a long time to find the niece but she was the daughter of Ellen’s brother James who was a witness at her first marriage.
James purchased the grave in Cathays cemetery, Cardiff but no-one else is buried with her.
Ellen’s age fluctuated on every record I found and that was why I found her so hard to track.
Thank you everyone for all your help, it has been very much appreciated.
SNG
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Thanks for the update :) it’s good to know that all is sorted out now.