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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: Rfarace on Sunday 28 May 23 04:58 BST (UK)
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Searching for the death record for my 3GG Elizabeth Menzies, born in Wigtownshire c. 1835, married William Stevens, moved about mostly in Ayrshire, presumably for work (he was an ironstone miner) before settling in Dalry. William died 1883. I find Elizabeth in the 1911 census at 77 years old, but not present in the 1921 census. I cannot find a death registration for her. I would like this to confirm her parents’ names. Most records list her as having been born in Wigtown, but what I presume to be her OPR birth record states Kirkmaiden, so I want to be sure I have the correct one. Thank you!
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I cannot see a birth/baptism for Elizabeth in Wigtownshire, at the moment, the two records you mention as they appear on https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
ELIZABETH MENNIES MARRIED WILLIAM STEVENS 04/07/1853 KILMARNOCK
WILLIAM STEVENS DEATH AGE 48 (1835) LANGDON 1883 DALRY (AYR)
Colin
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This looks likely bearing in mind the age at death depends on who reported it.
STEVENS ELIZABETH 77 MASON F 1917 IRVINE
MENZIES ELIZABETH 77 F 1917 IRVINE
Colin
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MENZIES FAMILY – 1841 Burnthill, Kirkmaiden, Wigtownshire.
John 45 Agricultural Labourer Wigtownshire
Grace 40 Ireland
Jean 14 Wigtownshire
Margaret 12 Wigtownshire
James 8 Wigtownshire
William 6 Wigtownshire
Elizabeth 6 Wigtownshire
Colin
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JOHN MENZIES/GRACE GARRET
KIRKMAIDEN BAPTISMS.
MENZIES JEAN 02/02/1827
MENZIES MARGARET 07/12/1828
MENZIES JAMES 21/12/1832
MENZIES WILLIAM 10/05/1835
MENZIES ELIZABETH 10/05/1835
So if this is Elizabeth, the mothers maiden name recorded at death is different?
Colin
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John Menzies, mmn McChlery, died in Kirkmaiden in 1872 aged 78.
Grace Garret or Menzies, mmn Sloan, died in Kirkmaiden in 1877 aged 79.
So the name Mason isn't either of Elizabeth's grandparents, if she is the right one and if these are her parents.
Would still be worth a look at that 1917 death certificate to see what it says about her husband and also who registered the death.
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Thank you. I had ruled out those two death registrations because Elizabeth was listed as 77 in the 1911 census (which corresponded pretty well, within a year, of previous years’ censuses), because I thought a six-year error was a bit much, but perhaps those are worth looking as, as you say.
In looking at the notes, I’m reminded that Elizabeth had a twin brother William, so looking at him could also provide clues.
I’m trying to be careful to have the correct family—in another branch of my family in the Campbeltown area, there were two Neil Munros, each of which married a McNeill and each had a daughter Helen only two years apart, only one of which, of course, was my 3GG. It was very easy to get them mixed up, and that experience caused me to be much, much more careful to be sure I haven’t made a skip across branches.
Thank you again!
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This looks likely bearing in mind the age at death depends on who reported it.
STEVENS ELIZABETH 77 MASON F 1917 IRVINE
MENZIES ELIZABETH 77 F 1917 IRVINE
Colin
Death cert records Elizabeth the widow of William Stevens occ coal miner. Died 25th June 1917, father David Menzies occ general labourer,deceased. Mother Mary ms Mason
Daughter Ellen Boyd informant
Died in the poor house, *****, usual address 25 *****(Canal Street?) DALRY. She was in Dalry in 1911 census
**** cannot read
John
added Ellen Stevens married William Boyd 1891 Dalry
Birth of Ellen Stevens
STEVENS
ELLEN
mothers maiden name MINIES
F
1869
587 / 393
DALRY (AYR)
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Ooh, more detective work to do, as my belief was that Elizabeth’s parents were John and Grace. ??? More digging later today, I hope. Thank you.
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1871 scotland census
William Stevens 44 Head
Eth Stevens 35 Wife
George Stevens 17 Son
Mary Stevens 14 Daughter
Jane Stevens 8 Daughter
William Stevens 6 Son
Eth Stevens 4 Daughter
Helen Stevens 1 Daughter
John
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Ooh, more detective work to do, as my belief was that Elizabeth’s parents were John and Grace. ??? More digging later today, I hope. Thank you.
Looking at John's details. One point to consider is that mistakes did creep in to registrations. Not uncommon for children (or another informant) not to remember the correct details for their grandparents' names when reporting a parent's death.
Monica
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However, in every census 1851-1901 where more specific birth places are included, Elizabeth clearly states Wigtown as her birth place :-\ Wigtown is some distance away from Kirkmaiden www.scotlandsfamily.com/parish-map-wigtown.htm
Monica
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There is this family in 1851 to consider:
David Menies 58 caster b. Ireland
Mary Menies 43 b. Ireland
David Minnier 24 b. Ireland
William Minnier 8 b. Wigtown
Address S Side High Street, Wigtown
William's birth or baptism in Wigtown:
William Mctaggart Meenies
18/01/1843
Parents David Meenies and Mary Mason
Other children showing to these parents:
Mary MEENIE
14/11/1827
Jane MEENIE
09/09/1830
And Elizabeth's entry showing as:
Elizabeth MINNY
21/10/1833
Monica
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David Snr and wife Mary in 1861:
David Menies 63 Pauper Formerly (cotton Weaver) b. Ireland
Mary Menies 53 b. Ireland
Address Botany Street Or Back Road, Wigtown
1871 with another spelling variation www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59067384e9379091b1f56f23/david-many-1871-wigtownshire-wigtown-1800-?locale=en
Monica
Added: I have been looking for 1841 for the family to show Elizabeth with her family and here it is www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a1590bff4040b9d6ead1d52/david-many-1841-wigtownshire-wigtown-1801-?locale=en
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Amazing age at death if this is David Snr!
David MENZIES
Age 100
Mother's maiden name MCCLENEHAN
1889
901 / 7
Wigtown
Not easily seeing Mary Mason's death so far.
Monica
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Hi Monica, good to have you onboard. When William & Elizabeths daughter Mary was born on the 8th December 1855 the record states William aged 29 born Redruth, Cornwall, occ Iron Miner, Elizabeth aged 22 and this was her 2nd child ms Menies. Cert also records that they married in Kilmarnock in 1852, believe this should be 1853.
John
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That all seems to fit doesn't it John.
Elizabeth in 1851 before her marriage www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59066f47e9379091b1efcc9e/elizabeth-menzies-1851-wigtownshire-wigtown-1834-?locale=en
Monica
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Looking at SP for 1881 for David and wife Mary. She is still alive. Her age seems a little younger than it should:
David Manay 90 b. Ireland
Mary Manay 60 wife Potato Mill Lab b. Ireland
Address: Backroad, Wigtown
Monica
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Possibly 1891
Name Mary Menzie
Age 86
Estimated Birth Year abt 1805
Relationship Head
Gender Female
Where born Ireland
Registration Number 901
Registration district Wigtown
Civil parish Wigtown
Town Wigtown
County Wigtownshire
Address South Side of Back Road
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I think Mary Mason Menzies died in England. Needs further research and confirmation, but potentially at least sons William and David made their lives in Lancashire after their marriages.
So we have the death of David Snr in 1889. Looks likely that this is from when Mary, mother, left for England at some point (added, after 1891 with John's 1891 census entry for her).
1901 entry in Dalton in Furness, Ulverston
David Menzies 74 b. Scotland
Matilda Menzies 65 b. Scotland
Alexander L Menzies 25 b. Dalton-in-Furness
Margaret Menzies 33 b. Dalton-in-Furness
Mary Menzies 96 Mother b. Chatham, Kent ??
Death notices appeared for her in a number of papers. See clip below from Witney Gazette and West Oxfordshire Advertiser, 19 March 1904. Another one mentioned that her husband had passed away some years at the age of 101 (close enough!).
Added: The Manchester Courier, 15 March 1904, states she was born on 14 March 1805 in Wigtown. Maybe correct birth date, just wrong place. All her Scottish census entries showed Ireland as her birth place.
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A lot for me to consider. I won’t be able to try to connect it with what I definitely know quite yet, as I have to run out and run errands, but I’ll start spelunking later. Thank you!
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Be aware that Wigton in Cumberland, England is not the same place as Wigtown in Wigtownshire, Scotland.
This may not, of course, have been known to the writer of the piece in the Witney Gazette and West Oxfordshire Advertiser.
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Be aware that Wigton in Cumberland, England is not the same place as Wigtown in Wigtownshire, Scotland.
This may not, of course, have been known to the writer of the piece in the Witney Gazette and West Oxfordshire Advertiser.
That's a very good point.
Sadly she probably died before her 100th birthday.
Deaths Dec 1904
Menzies Mary 99 Ulverston 8e 565
David appears on 1911 census confirming his place of birth, with his son Alexander Laurie Menzies.
Death of son & his wife
Deaths Mar 1912
Menzies David 85 Ulverston 8e 1133
Deaths Sep 1909
MENZIES Matilda 74 Ulverston 8e 43
John
added, if you believe this to be your family and they are buried in Dalton in Furness I live 5 minuets away and would be happy to take any photographs of headstones if they survive.
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Believe this to be confirmation of findings previously posted. Elizabeth Stevens nee' Menies/Menzies has a brother David born c1827 Wigtown.
David MANYS marries Matilda Lawrie 14.8.1860
David records his father as David Manys, his mother as Mary nee' Mason
1871 england census ref 4243 67 38, Parents david & Matilda +3 children
MENNIES, JANE LOWREY
GRO Reference: 1863 D Quarter in ULVERSTONE Volume 08E Page 599
MENIES, MARGARET LOWRIE
GRO Reference: 1868 M Quarter in ULVERSTONE Volume 08E Page 720
MENIES, WILLIAM LOWRIE
GRO Reference: 1869 D Quarter in ULVERSTONE Volume 08E Page 684
In 1911 census David appears with another son Alexander Laurie
MENIES, ALEXANDER LAURIE LOURIE
GRO Reference: 1875 D Quarter in ULVERSTON Volume 08E Page 733
John
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Elizabeth's sister Jane
POWELL
Jane (Menzies)
Married John Powell 22.5.1854 Hobart Tasmania (9 children born to John & Jane)
Death
Mother Mary ******
Father Menzies David
Melb E
aged 78
Died 1913