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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Ghostwheel on Thursday 01 June 23 14:40 BST (UK)
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I was hoping someone could offer me some help checking two references to MacFhirbhisigh's genealogies that I found on logainm.ie. Maybe, getting a quick read on it, to see if it mentions the family I am after.
Not sure if it connects to anything. Checked two earlier references for the townland: 1597, from the fiants, and c1639 from the Inquisitions and neither seemed to connect to the family.
Though the reference appears only once, it's the earliest location that I can associate with anyone in the family. A priest in the family was ordained there in 1664. And I read one claim that he was from that townland. I also know he was considered to be from noble blood, and later became bishop of Kildare and Leighlin and the surrogate for the archbishop who was absent from Ireland and delegated his authority.
The references read:
DF 483.21
DF 1229.4
And seem to invoke the Irish placename:
go Cluain Caoin
Which has the modern English name Clonkeen, and is located in Co. Kildare.
https://www.logainm.ie/en/25496
The surname I am after is Dempsy or Dempsey.
The only two names from about that era that I know are John (born c1644, who later became a Bishop), and, I believe, his brother Charles (born ?, who later was a farmer at Coolelan, years unknown)
I do not know the names of their parents. I know Charles had a son named Pat, who was living at Kilmurry in 1704, and who is the only clear close relative that John mentioned in his 1703 will, though he mentioned several Dempsys, most of which seem to have been priests.
The only one who was not obviously a priest was named Charles Dempsy of Lyle (near Monasterevin). I have not been able to locate this place. And I have guessed it was not his brother, as he specifies that Charles owes him money, but may keep 1/3, while giving 2/3 to his nephew Pat.
The will is quite curious and names the widow of the final chief as the executrix, and makes a condition of Pat's full inheritance that he continue to give her his allegiance.
Will begins on page 80 or 81:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Xqg0AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA81&dq=charles+dempsy+lyle&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwinqrW_laL_AhV9KlkFHS3-Da4QuwV6BAgEEAY#v=onepage&q=charles%20dempsy%20lyle&f=false
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leabhar_na_nGenealach
https://www.isos.dias.ie/UCD/UCD_MS_14.html
I would also appreciate it if someone could take a quick look at the Down Survey, if the townland appears on it, and give me the before and after names. Unfortunately, the device I am on now does not allow me to input the right fields, and I can't figure out a technical solution.
Linked to this earlier post:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=814524.msg6755056#msg6755056
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Could it be Forbes?
Skoosh.
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After looking carefully at this reference on logainm.ie:
Leabhar Mór na nGenealach: The Great Book of Irish Genealogies, compiled by Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh, 1- 5 Áit foilsithe: Dublin, Bliain: 1650c, Údar: Nollaig Ó Muraíle, Bliain foilsithe: 2003
I am thinking it refers to the modern volume published in 2003 or 2004 and not the manuscript. Guessing it is not available online.
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Can anyone check the Down Survey for me and see if Clonkeen or Lyle come up, and tell the before and after names?
https://downsurvey.tchpc.tcd.ie/down-survey-maps.php
https://downsurvey.tchpc.tcd.ie/landowners.php
Still having technical problems with the website myself.
Clonkeen is in Carbury Barony and Carbury Civil Parish, Kildare. Not sure about Lyle but possibly in the same.
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Clonkeran is on the Down Survey which is one of the names listed on logaim.ie, think it's in the parish of Moylerstonne (Mylerstown), don't know what you mean by the before and after names.
Can't see Lyle but some of the Baronies won't load.
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Thanks Sinann,
I forget exactly how it works since it has been a few years since I used the site, and it does not seem to work well on my phone.
But when you get to the parish level on the maps. I think there should be some option to view a sheet of the proprietors. (A word that maybe begins with "T") I forget the exact word they use for it. That is, the landowners before Cromwell. This manuscript sheet has a description of the parish on the left side and a list of townlands, their acreage, and owners on the right side. It lists their religion, often calling people 'Irish papists" or something like "Ir. pap.". These were generally the people to lose their lands. But it also lists Protestants.
The names that appear on this list are the ones that the website, I believe somewhat arbitrarily, calls 1641 landowners. They are what I have called the "before names."
To get the "after names"(what the website calls "1670 landowners" , I think you might have to plug in the before names into the 1641 field. I forget whether these are the people who were given the land, or whether it includes any who recovered their land.
https://downsurvey.tchpc.tcd.ie/landowners.php
I'd still be interested in the names, even if neither was "Dempsy."
One thing I have just recently realized is that they weren't just randomly in Kilmurry. (Where they were in 1704) They were there because they were in the retinue of the Viscountess Dempsy (maiden name Anne Bermingham), and she either owned the land, or had at one time.
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Managed to see the name by zooming in on the map. (I still can't input fields)
Curiously, it appears to be Dudley Colley who is called a Protestant. (Both in 1641 and 1670) I am wondering, if he was secretly Catholic, if a priest was really ordained there in 1664.
But what is weird is that there are recorded a lot of English living there. Perhaps, they are all "Old English", ie. Normans.
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Is this what you want
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I'd be a bit curious if you can actually get a look at that manuscript page that lists the names for the parish. I'd really like to know just one thing:
I'm wondering if he was actually called a papist when the survey and as made.
I think it is definitely possible.
As I recall the 1641 landowners religion listed by the website does not perfectly correspond to the religion listed in the manuscript. Rather, it is what people claimed they were afterwards in about 1670, or maybe that they converted.
I have heard that Dudley Colley was a royalist, which I find really interesting. Later on, I saw a reference where he was called a captain. Not completely certain that means he was a captain in the Cromwellian war for the royalists, but I think so.
In that case, his land must have definitely been taken from him, and he must have gotten it back.
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I looked at the glossary and the manuscript page which should list his religion is called a "terrier."
I believe there should be a button somewhere that says "view terrier", when you have it zoomed on the parish or else on the townland.
It should state whether they considered him a papist originally right next to his name.
Another Norman family I was interested were called Protestants by the website but Irish papists in the terrier.
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On the TCD site, the map for the barony of Carbury in Co. Kildare does not include the parish of Carbury. More precisely, the area where the parish of Carbury is, is blank, with just the parish name appearing in that space. Thus there is no parish map, and of course no terrier either.
My usual interpretation when I see this is that the entire parish was owned by Protestants, and therefore there was no need to survey and map it, as it was not going to be forfeit.
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Thanks, Sinann and Wexflyer,
I feel sorry for making Sinann look for something that is not there.
I thought the number of English people seemed unusually high.
I guess another possibility is that part was lost or burned.
Is there any part of Kildare that survives? I only recall looking at certain parts of Offaly and Westmeath.
I thought that most of the survey was destroyed, and it is only some books that a French privateer stole from an English ship which survive. Or maybe, I am misremembering it?
I think for certain parts of Ireland, they already had good maps and so didn't survey them. But I forget whether these have terriers or not.
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Thanks, Sinann and Wexflyer,
I feel sorry for making Sinann look for something that is not there.
I thought the number of English people seemed unusually high.
I guess another possibility is that part was lost or burned.
Is there any part of Kildare that survives? I only recall looking at certain parts of Offaly and Westmeath.
I thought that most of the survey was destroyed, and it is only some books that a French privateer stole from an English ship which survive. Or maybe, I am misremembering it?
I think for certain parts of Ireland, they already had good maps and so didn't survey them. But I forget whether these have terriers or not.
The Barony map does survive, but Carbury parish isn't included. The rest of the barony of Carbury is mapped. However, individual parish maps don't seem to be on the website, and may not have survived. The blank space on the original barony map indicates that the parish of Carbury was never surveyed to begin with. Not everywhere was surveyed - it was a survey of land subject to forfeiture, and not everywhere was.
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Maybe someone else can chime in, but IIRC (from 20+ years ago, and so subject to error), then "English" does not necessarily mean literally English, but more generally Protestant.
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What I was thinking of earlier was the Stafford Survey. That was the counties they had already mapped earlier, and which they mostly weren't confiscating.
But I don't think such a conclusion can be drawn for the local parish.
The website notes:
Only ‘a few burnt papers’ remained of Cavan, Fermanagh, Kildare, Louth, Monaghan, Mayo
https://downsurvey.tchpc.tcd.ie/map-sources.html
Quite possibly the barony map was just an imperfect copy, missing a lot of details.
I wonder if the family I am after could have been the 6 Irish. But I suppose there is no way of knowing.
Seems like an odd place for an ordination. But perhaps there were different people there in 1664.
I wonder how typical it would be for an ordination to happen at someone's home, in theory. Though, I guess those weren't typical times.
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I think the online barony map is original. My opinion based on its decoration, in the style of the original maps. Also, copies I have seen, some on the TCD site, are stated to be copies on the map itself (and less decorated).
As for ordination, I don't think ordination in Ireland was common at all. There were no seminaries in Ireland at the time, or for well over 100 years later, so priestly training and ordinations typically (always?) occurred in the Irish colleges on the continent.
Or perhaps you mean consecrated, if you are speaking of the bishop? That could have occurred in Ireland, and would necessarily have been in secret - death penalty for Catholic bishops at the time....
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Whoops, made a big error, if this source is accurate:
Doctor John Dempsey, appointed Bishop of Kildare and Leighlin in 1694, appears to have been a native of this Parish, and also to have resided in it. In the Return of Parish Priests, made in 1704, is the following:-“ John Dempsey, residing at Kilmurry, aged 63, P.P. of Kilraney, ordained on Whit Sunday, 1664, at Clonkeene, King’s County, by Anthony Geoghegan, Bishop of Meath; having for his sureties, Robert Daly of Calvesland,Gent., and Colonel John Wogan of Rathcoffy.” This entry most probably refers to the Bishop, (see Vol. I., p. 72 for corresponding dates.) The Dempseys have continued to reside at Kilmurry up to our own times.
https://www.kildare.ie/ehistory/2006/07/carbury_parish_of_comerfords_d.asp
It was Clonkeen in Co. Offaly. Elsewhere I thought I had read that it was the local Carbury Parish or Balyna Kildare, where John was a local priest or resided for a while.
I wonder how they knew it was his native parish. Oral history maybe? Don't know whether to take it at face value or not.
Here is presumably the right location on logainm:
https://www.logainm.ie/en/41656
If I follow, it doesn't appear on the Down Survey.
I looked at the fiant for 1602 and there was no Dempsy. Not quite sure how to check the later sources yet.