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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: hunkyhywel on Monday 10 July 23 07:31 BST (UK)
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Hi all, please help, am I being stupid?
When researching this soldier, I consistently find two KIA dates. On the attached image, both appear on the same record. How do I interpret this?
In the war office daily list, he is reported wounded, then missing, then killed. I wonder if that might explain it?
Thanks in advance my friends!
H
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I am in the middle of reading a book about the horrors of the first world war and am in fact up to 1917. I think you are probably correct in your assumption.
Mu guess is that he was mortally wounded on 31/July, missing assumed dead, found briefly, but actually died on 4/August once brought in from where he'd been hit.
I don't know - merely a guess, but it could be quite possible, I suspect.
Wiggy
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Thanks wiggy. Also in the mix is the fact that he is variously recorded as KIA and Died of Wounds. Again, sometimes in the same record such as the attached
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CWGC record his death as 4 August 1917, and buried/commemorated at Cement House Cemetery in Belgium.
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Weekly Casualty List (War Office & Air Ministry), 23 Oct 1917
"Previously reported wounded and missing in action
KILLED
Royal Welsh Fusiliers - ...; Thomas 56908 L.-Sjt E (Cardiff)"
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Weekly Casualty List, 18 Sep 1917
"Wounded
Royal Welsh Fusiliers - ...; Thomas 56908 L.-Sjt G (sic) Cardiff; ..."
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The pension document as amended shows a date range: 31-7-17 - 4.8.17
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He was still fit & well on the 2nd. Aug. as he's mentioned in the war diary as going on
patrol.
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Further to the previous posting, Major J Williams returned and reported that there was no enemy counter-attack underway. Nothing was noted about any casualties among his patrol. See second image below
Sgt Thomas also appears to have been alive on 11 August when he received the Military Medal. No mention of it being a postumous award. See first image.
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Even if Jim1 is prepared to plough on through the war diary for further references to Sgt Thomas, I think it would be very worthwhile for the OP to download the diaries for himself and thus get a flavour for what the battalion were doing at the time. You can get it for free (after registering) from TNA here: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354151. You need pdf number 2 for 1917.
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This was the Battle of Pilkem Ridge which signalled the start
of the offensive known as Passchendaele.
The 14th. were relieved on the evening of the 4th. Aug. having
been in the trenches for several days.
They were shelled almost constantly.
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Wow thank you all this has been so helpful! I have downloaded the diary and will get through it.
-- Jim, I couldn't find that reference to him on 2nd Aug but will double check.
-- He is awarded the MM on 11th Aug but does that mean he's alive?
-- If he is still alive on and beyond 11th Aug, why are his other records unanimous that he is KIA between 31/7 and 4/8?
Thank you for your expertise and help everyone!
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Not being recorded as deceased in the diary entry isn't particularly relevant.
The C.O. may not have been aware of his death at that time or just
chose not to include it.
All the info says he died on the 4th.
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I agree with jim1, I think his MM was awarded posthumously, possibly related to an earlier act of bravery. The MM was gazetted on 27 September 1917 in Supplement 30312 page 10035.
Were you aware that he had previously served in the Welch Regiment as a Corporal with the regimental number 1641. If he was in the 1st or 2nd Bn Welch Regiment his number indicates that he enlisted between Jan 1886 and April 1887. However that would have made him around 49 or 50 when he died, which is possible but seems unlikely. Does this fit with other dates you may have for him?
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His War Gratuity shows he attested for the 2nd. time around Xmas 1915.