RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Armagh => Topic started by: mackers on Tuesday 05 September 23 21:24 BST (UK)
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Firstly I want to say I have posted about this before but it was under a different heading which somewhat confused the situation. But in essence it is about the following family that of Patrick Hamill and Anne Hamill either nee Carr/Kerr. whose family was as follows Mary, Teresa, Ann, and Thomas Hamill. The point being my great grandmother was Teresa.
This is some info I got but can't confirm made up of snippets from Pensar Records and possible connections to them.
Patrick Hamill and Anne Hamill (Carr/Kerr) Breagh Tartaraghan O’Neill and West Armagh.
Patrick approx age 71 1851 census.
Teresa (Hamill) McCann parents married 1841 Teresa age 6. So if Teresa was aged 6 this would give her birth year as about 1847/48
Pensar
Hamill’s as follows children are Mary, Teresa, Ann, and Thomas. Mary born 26th November 1866. Sorry for the way this is formed but this is the way it was given.
I have tried in vain to confirm this but no joy. So I would be grateful for someone with a bit more expertise to review this to see if I am missing something. Hopefully with more success then me. Thanks in advance of any help
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Not entirely sure what your asking but there is a Mary Hamill born 26 Nov 1866 Portadown mother Annie, no father
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03512/2291714.pdf
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…Breagh Tartaraghan O’Neill and West Armagh.
Just linking the townland-
Breagh townland in the civil parish of Tartaraghan, in the Barony of Oneilland West, in county Armagh.
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-west/tartaraghan/tartaraghan/breagh/
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5248302#map=12/54.4557/-6.4651
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I don’t understand either - and as you say you can’t confirm things, it is difficult.
There is a Teresa b 1876 with parents of the same names which, of course, is quite possible.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1876/03036/2112922.pdf
What do you know about Teresa born about 1846?
Did she marry in Ireland?
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Related threads which might have further information
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=638971.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=463110.0
Your last post on this thread mentions the confusion re the birth of Teresa in 1876.
Are you now thinking that, although Teresa’s parents were Patrick and Anne Hamill, the mother’s surname might be different?
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I can’t see a civil marriage but here is the parish record for Edward McCann and Teresa Hamill - July 1871
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633212#page/35/mode/1up
It is difficult to read - 4th entry down
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Firstly thanks for the replies. I am already aware of the marriage of Edward and Teresa. It's really the situation about Teresa's parents. Patrick and Anne Hamill and the rest of the family. The problem being the only couple with those names could not have been Teresa's parents. Duet to their ages. A Patrick Hamill a Baker when he died was far too young to be the Teresa I seeks father. As I latterly found out the daughter they had was born when the Teresa i am looking was 5 years married.
But as seen in Edward and Teresa's marriage record her father and mother are named as Patrick and Anne Hamill. Sorry for any confusion. My best guest for Teresa's birth date is in the 1840s. So her father and mother would have had to be born around the 1810s to approx 1820s. The search continues. Regards to all.
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I posted the parish marriage details for others who might want to help your research. I can see from your other posts that you have it.
Have you ever found the civil record?
You write:
“But in essence it is about the following family that of Patrick Hamill and Anne Hamill either nee Carr/Kerr. whose family was as follows Mary, Teresa, Ann, and Thomas Hamill. The point being my great grandmother was Teresa. “
Are these your great grandmother and her siblings, or are they Teresa b 1876 and her siblings - the Hamill/Kerr children?
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“Patrick Hamill and Anne Hamill (Carr/Kerr) Breagh Tartaraghan O’Neill and West Armagh.
Patrick approx age 71 1851 census.”
Where does this information come from? Do you have a link to the 1851 census you refer to, please?
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Patrick and Anne Hamill and the rest of the family. The problem being the only couple with those names could not have been Teresa's parents. Duet to their ages. A Patrick Hamill a Baker when he died was far too young to be the Teresa I seeks father. As I latterly found out the daughter they had was born when the Teresa i am looking was 5 years married.
But as seen in Edward and Teresa's marriage record her father and mother are named as Patrick and Anne Hamill. ..
My best guest for Teresa's birth date is in the 1840s. So her father and mother would have had to be born around the 1810s to approx 1820s. The search continues. Regards to all.
I just want to indicate that 'old' parents and parents having children after the marriages of their older children is not unusual.
My mother was born to a 48 year old mother and was younger than some of her nieces and nephews. So I would not dismiss the birth of Martha Hamill on 9/2/1873 to Patrick and Mary Kerr Hamill on these grounds.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:68L2-BH42 (name spelt Hamile)
But I am finding this research difficult and looking back it is because I think we have not been given the information that helps us step from the known to the unknown and to potentially find details.
Could you please give us details on:
death of T(h)eresa Hamill McCann
death of Edward McCann
names of their children
We know they were married in Belfast in 1871. We know the marriage register shows that her parents were Patrick & Ann Hamill.
Do you know why Theresa was in Belfast?
dates of deaths/links for
Patrick Hamill
Ann/e Hamill
DOB/DOD if you have them for the children of Patrick and Ann Kerr Hamill.
If the birth to old parents and marriage of an older daughter is possible, then perhaps Teresa was actually not married in her late twenties/thirties that a birth in the 1840s would indicate, but in her twenties or born even in 1850?
Actually on Family Search there is a Francis Hamill born to Patrick and Ann Kerr Hamill in 1866.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPR8-LYRW
and
Joseph Alvicia Hamill born 1869
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FRSR-GTL
and
Josepham Hamill baptised
Patricii Hamill and Annae Carr
born 14/5/1862
and
Peter Hamill born 1871
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FR33-L4L
Christening
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5K8-RMQ
Possible death new York 1900
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2W59-35G
and Teresa Hamill born 1876
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5YB-XY3
bapt
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6DWD-Y8J4
and Patricium Hamill baptised 6 May 1860 to
Patricii and Annae Carr
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6DL3-9TLZ
Maybe this death in New York in 1896, he was a baker
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2W6L-4QB
Annam Hamill baptised 17/3/1856 to
Patritii hamill
Anna Carr
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6XFZ-B92X
and Mary Catherine born 1864
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5YQ-8QH
and Lucinda born 1867
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FPBG-84W
baptised https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6XNK-8S99
and John (Joannnem) baptised 25/4/1858
parents Patricii Hamill and Annae Kerr
There are either two separate Patrick Hamill /Ann Carr/Kerr Hamill having children in Co Armagh or the data/dates have become mixed.
I have found a Thomas Hamill dying in the US in 1903 with parents named Patrick and Ann and a possible birth date of 1850.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WXJ-3G5
Is this the Thomas from the family you have mentioned?
One thing is certain the Teresa born 1876 cannot be the Teresa who marries in 1871.
One thing perhaps is that the Teresa marrying in 1871 may have used a second birthname or a confirmation name and is an early unfound, as yet, birth to Patrick and Ann in the 1850s.
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First many thanks for your work with this.
To begin on the 1871 marriage in St Peter's Belfast of Edward and Teresa her parents names are given as Patrick and Anne. So some years back when I first started looking up my family tree. I came across a place in Belfast called the Ulster Historical Foundation. Who were kind enough to give me a look at the details of the marriage. Which stated Teresa's Father and Mother were indeed Patrick and Anne Hamill nee Carr Portadown and that they needed the OK from the priests in Portadown for them to wed. So from that point I assumed the details to be right. But as other information was released to the internet the ages just didn't add up. The situation was even more complicated when i found that Edward and Teresa had actually been in Belfast for 2 years already and had a baby in 1869 called Patrick (which kind of suggests named after her father) Then to discover Patrick and Anne had another girl named Teresa as you pointed out in 1876 well that just blew this thing out of the water so to say.
As for Edward and Teresa's children they originally had 3 children Patrick Mary and George. but sad to report they all died in Scotland from Whooping cough. But then they had my Grandfather Francis McCann born in Glasgow who they returned to Belfast who survived along with others called George Lizzie and Edward. Another problem I had was the fact both Edward and Teresa's DOBs when they died where both 10 years out on their death certificates Teresa died in 1926 where her age at death was given as 66. Which was way off compared to her ages in the 1901/11 census records. As for most of the Hamill's you found I don't think they are from the same family. But I am not too sure just who her family are.
But I am very grateful for you help. Regards Ed
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Patrick and Anne Hamill and the rest of the family. The problem being the only couple with those names could not have been Teresa's parents. Duet to their ages. A Patrick Hamill a Baker when he died was far too young to be the Teresa I seeks father. As I latterly found out the daughter they had was born when the Teresa i am looking was 5 years married.
But as seen in Edward and Teresa's marriage record her father and mother are named as Patrick and Anne Hamill. ..
My best guest for Teresa's birth date is in the 1840s. So her father and mother would have had to be born around the 1810s to approx 1820s. The search continues. Regards to all.
I just want to indicate that 'old' parents and parents having children after the marriages of their older children is not unusual.
My mother was born to a 48 year old mother and was younger than some of her nieces and nephews. So I would not dismiss the birth of Martha Hamill on 9/2/1873 to Patrick and Mary Kerr Hamill on these grounds.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:68L2-BH42 (name spelt Hamile)
But I am finding this research difficult and looking back it is because I think we have not been given the information that helps us step from the known to the unknown and to potentially find details.
Could you please give us details on:
death of T(h)eresa Hamill McCann
death of Edward McCann
names of their children
We know they were married in Belfast in 1871. We know the marriage register shows that her parents were Patrick & Ann Hamill.
Do you know why Theresa was in Belfast?
dates of deaths/links for
Patrick Hamill
Ann/e Hamill
DOB/DOD if you have them for the children of Patrick and Ann Kerr Hamill.
If the birth to old parents and marriage of an older daughter is possible, then perhaps Teresa was actually not married in her late twenties/thirties that a birth in the 1840s would indicate, but in her twenties or born even in 1850?
Actually on Family Search there is a Francis Hamill born to Patrick and Ann Kerr Hamill in 1866.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPR8-LYRW
and
Joseph Alvicia Hamill born 1869
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FRSR-GTL
and
Josepham Hamill baptised
Patricii Hamill and Annae Carr
born 14/5/1862
and
Peter Hamill born 1871
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FR33-L4L
Christening
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5K8-RMQ
Possible death new York 1900
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2W59-35G
and Teresa Hamill born 1876
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5YB-XY3
bapt
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6DWD-Y8J4
and Patricium Hamill baptised 6 May 1860 to
Patricii and Annae Carr
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6DL3-9TLZ
Maybe this death in New York in 1896, he was a baker
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2W6L-4QB
Annam Hamill baptised 17/3/1856 to
Patritii hamill
Anna Carr
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6XFZ-B92X
and Mary Catherine born 1864
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5YQ-8QH
and Lucinda born 1867
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FPBG-84W
baptised https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6XNK-8S99
and John (Joannnem) baptised 25/4/1858
parents Patricii Hamill and Annae Kerr
There are either two separate Patrick Hamill /Ann Carr/Kerr Hamill having children in Co Armagh or the data/dates have become mixed.
I have found a Thomas Hamill dying in the US in 1903 with parents named Patrick and Ann and a possible birth date of 1850.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WXJ-3G5
Is this the Thomas from the family you have mentioned?
One thing is certain the Teresa born 1876 cannot be the Teresa who marries in 1871.
One thing perhaps is that the Teresa marrying in 1871 may have used a second birthname or a confirmation name and is an early unfound, as yet, birth to Patrick and Ann in the 1850s.
Many thanks for the above details. As you can see at times information given can look good on the face of it but down the line come back to bite you. The document I seen in UHF many years ago looks very suspect now. I believe the UHF was taken over by Ancestry. So that document might still be about. If i may add I can't get any birth record for my Great grandfather Edward as he was born during the famine and 2s 6p was a lot of money to register a birth. So looks like i was stumped there as well. Regards Ed
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Do you have this marriage? There is a lot to unpick in the thread and not sure if I have seen it. Ancestry has it transcribed as ‘Harrel’.
Is it too late?
10th November 1852 Armagh
Patrick Hamel and Ann Carr
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632474#page/62/mode/1up
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Thanks for the post in fact in the Catholic Register for the 10th of November 1852 they have Patrick's name in what looks like Latin as Patrinciny Hamel.
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Sorry, I wrote the wrong date - it’s the 10th, I think. I have altered it.
It reads Patricius- Latin for Patrick.
So, do you think that is your ancestor?
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I did think so it is the right time line. But another Patrick and Anne Hamill where about at the same time. He being a Baker but the dates for his death and ages of his children don't seem to fit.
My problem has always come down to ages. They never seem to be correct but you have to realise that the people then were mostly illiterate.
The Teresa I am looking for was born around 1845 to 1850. She was my great grandmother. Married to Edward McCann born around 1842 to 1846. Armagh more than likely Portadown. Regards Ed
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If I recall, the Baker was the father of the second Theresa.
Patrick, the Baker died in 1897, aged 54 years, a widower, with son Peter was the informant.
I asked earlier re the 1851 census you mention. Could you give a link please.
“Patrick Hamill and Anne Hamill (Carr/Kerr) Breagh Tartaraghan O’Neill and West Armagh.
Patrick approx age 71 1851 census.”
Here is the death if a Patrick, residence, Breagh, aged 75 yrs in 1882
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1882/06406/4839833.pdf
I can’t see an earlier death for Anne though.
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If I recall, the Baker was the father of the second Theresa.
Patrick, the Baker died in 1897, aged 54 years, a widower, with son Peter was the informant.
I asked earlier re the 1851 census you mention. Could you give a link please.
“Patrick Hamill and Anne Hamill (Carr/Kerr) Breagh Tartaraghan O’Neill and West Armagh.
Patrick approx age 71 1851 census.”
Here is the death if a Patrick, residence, Breagh, aged 75 yrs in 1882
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1882/06406/4839833.pdf
I can’t see an earlier death for Anne though.
The link was in Shanreagh's post that Patrick died in the workhouse. But he looks like the father of the Teresa i am looking for but again can't confirm.
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Thanks. Apologies to shanreagh.
You quote 1851 census though, I couldn’t see them and wondered where you have them.
If they married in 1852, they wouldn’t be together in 1851 though.
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Thanks. Apologies to shanreagh.
You quote 1851 census though, I couldn’t see them and wondered where you have them.
If they married in 1852, they wouldn’t be together in 1851 though.
Exactly on the date. This was a detail sent to me previous to the latter information. But it might have been a misquote. As I'm sure you know sometimes reports from back in those days where sketchy to say the least, that's why researching this kind of information is hard. But again thank you for your help. Ed
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Thanks. Apologies to shanreagh.
You quote 1851 census though, I couldn’t see them and wondered where you have them.
If they married in 1852, they wouldn’t be together in 1851 though.
Exactly on the date. This was a detail sent to me previous to the latter information. But it might have been a misquote. As I'm sure you know sometimes reports from back in those days where sketchy to say the least, that's why researching this kind of information is hard. But again thank you for your help. Ed
So it would be useful if you could let us have the earliest date & where you have found them. So looks like this census detail may be incorrect and we should put it aside for now.
As found by Heywood this looks like a strong contender for the marriage
10th November 1852 Armagh
Patrick Hamel and Ann Carr
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632474#page/62/mode/1up
ETA Looking at this entry again it looks as if the witnesses were Patricio Hamel and Joanem Carr so they may be siblings or parents?
As regards the dates and ages I would not get too fixated on these. Illiteracy was common and many did not need nor celebrate their birthdays. I have seen census details where the people got younger and younger especially if there had been a new marriage between censuses!
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The townland Breagh has been mentioned.
In Armagh there seem to be three with this name
49950 Breagh 240 Drumcree Oneilland West Lurgan Armagh
49951 Breagh 257 Seagoe Oneilland East Lurgan Armagh
49952 Breagh 355 Tartaraghan Oneilland West Lurgan Armagh
from
https://www.swilson.info/db/townlanddbs.php
NB The third is worded like the mysterious 1851 census?
I have had a look on Griffiths 1864 for the occupants under the places tab and there are three Breaghs in Co Armagh entered - Drumcree, Tataraghan and Seagoe
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01sn9/
In Seagoe there is a James Kerr, no Hamills. JK leases a house from Anne Jennett.
In Tataraghan there is a Patrick Hamill, Felix Hamill, John Hamill and Daniel Hamill
In Drumcree there are no Hamills or Kerrs/Carrs but there is an Edward McCann leasing a house & garden from a Robert Kingsborough
I think it could be worthwhile to do some lateral searching to find out all you can about Felix, John and Daniel Hamill.
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I came across a place in Belfast called the Ulster Historical Foundation. Who were kind enough to give me a look at the details of the marriage. Which stated Teresa's Father and Mother were indeed Patrick and Anne Hamill nee Carr Portadown and that they needed the OK from the priests in Portadown for them to wed.
The document I seen in UHF many years ago looks very suspect now. I believe the UHF was taken over by Ancestry. So that document might still be about.
I think you really need to sort that out. The church record does not record Ann's maiden surname at all and personally I think that your whole research has been thrown out by the erroneous information that the mother of Teresa born 1840s had the surname CARR/KERR etc.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633212#page/35/mode/1up
As far as I can see, the couple who married in 1852 always lived in Armagh while your Teresa said that her family were from Portadown.
Here is the death if a Patrick, residence, Breagh, aged 75 yrs in 1882
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1882/06406/4839833.pdf
There is also this death in 1883 at Portadown for a Patrick with a son named Francis.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1883/06379/4831047.pdf
Debra :)
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Good find Dundee.
OP has said that their forebear is a Francis as well.
As for Edward and Teresa's children they originally had 3 children Patrick Mary and George. but sad to report they all died in Scotland from Whooping cough. But then they had my Grandfather Francis McCann born in Glasgow who they returned to Belfast who survived along with others called George Lizzie and Edward
Possibly Francis was a family name for the Hamill's used by Teresa Hamill McCann for one of her children.
I think perhaps we should look at this Patrick and this Francis that you have found. Patrick and this Francis lived at Union st Portadown at the time of patrick's death.
https://www.streetcheck.co.uk/postcode/bt624ad
Just looked at https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ and aaaaaagh
Patrick & Ann,baker & Kerr all feature in this birth with the parents living in Dawson St Armagh
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03545/2304632.pdf
So looks like we are back in confusion again.
And for a bit of light relief the blood thirsty McCanns of Portadown
'During the civil war in 1641 Portadown was pillaged by Captain Toole McCann......'
http://www.lurganancestry.com/portadown.htm
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On 19/4/1884 a 17 year old Francis Hamill travels to the USA on the Republic from Queenstown (Cobh) to New York. His occupation is Miner.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVSJ-5ZHH
From Dundee's post
There is also this death in 1883 at Portadown for a Patrick with a son named Francis.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1883/06379/4831047.pdf
Can anyone read the age of Patrick Hamill please?
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I think it is 70 yrs.
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I think it is 70 yrs.
Agree with heywood... 70 yrs (with a squiggly 7)....see also the death of Thomas Buchanan just above, also 70 yrs.
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From Shanreagh
“I think perhaps we should look at this Patrick and this Francis that you have found. Patrick and this Francis lived at Union st Portadown at the time of patrick's death.
https://www.streetcheck.co.uk/postcode/bt624ad”
Newspaper snippet
Portadown News October 1880
Mentions Francis Hamill, Union Street requesting that a child he had found be raised Roman Catholic.
2 other 1881 mention Francis Hamill stealing flowers but no street address.
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Thanks for the age Heywood and KG. Of course now you have told me I see it clearly!
Ann Hamill the wife of Patrick Hamill the baker died aged 51 years on 27/10/1893. She was living at Thomas St Armagh. Death was reported by Patrick.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1893/05988/4703065.pdf
Patrick Hamill the baker dies aged 54 on 15/2/1897. He was living at Thomas St Armagh. The death was reported by son Peter.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1897/05877/4666299.pdf
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I think the baker is definitely ruled out and the Francis who emigrated may be their son.
However, that does leave Francis of Union Street and his father Patrick.
That Patrick was married so there should be a death for a wife. :-\
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Just adding this information on the other Breagh townlands-
In Armagh there seem to be three with this name (third one already mentioned - reply #2)
49950 Breagh 240 Drumcree Oneilland West Lurgan Armagh
49951 Breagh 257 Seagoe Oneilland East Lurgan Armagh
49952 Breagh 355 Tartaraghan Oneilland West Lurgan Armagh
Breagh townland in Drumcree civil parish
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-west/drumcree/breagh/breagh/
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5245230#map=13/54.4436/-6.4579
Breagh townland in Seagoe civil parish
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-east/seagoe/carrowbrack/breagh/
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5338685#map=13/54.4157/-6.4173
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Opened up a whole can of worms with this. Many thanks for the replies. If i may add this the George McCann my great great grandfather married a Mary Lappan sic or Lappen/Lappin. I post this as I have not found a birth record for Edward Teresa's husband. But the Francis name has always made me wonder where it came from as the family names were very static up to his arrival. Ergo the Francis Hamill popping up looks very interesting.
By the way sorry for any confusion in regards UHF they give me a computer print out and that information was on it in regards Anne Carr if didn't have Kerr on it. That popped up later. But the Baker Hamill is totally out. If there is a problem with this kind of thing it is in the form of the McCann name itself around Armagh and Portadown (apart from the psychopath wing of the family) in that the name is so common. But it seems Teresa and Edward eloped as they were living together in Belfast for at least 2 years before their marriage. As they had their first child in 1869 in Belfast. Again many thanks for all your info to all.
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Ann Hamill the wife of Patrick Hamill the baker died aged 51 years on 27/10/1893.
Patrick Hamill the baker dies aged 54 on 15/2/1897.
I would give both of them at least another 10 years on top of those ages if they were married in 1852.
Debra :)
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Patrick and Ann (baker) are in Armagh though not Portadown.
Re the child b 1869, I had wondered if there was a civil marriage about this time but I can’t find one.
I wondered if the parish one we have was later due to Theresa being Catholic and Edward not. However, there is nothing to support the theory. :-\
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I know what you mean Dundee.
I think it is the two Theresas that is confusing.
Shanreagh posted births earlier to Patrick and Ann Carr
These are the 1850s
1854 Henry (can’t read second name) Patrick and Ann Kerr
1856 Ann - sponsors John and Mary Hamill
Sponsors Patrick? Hamill and Ann …
1858 John - sponsors Francis Carr and Lucy (Lucia) Hamill.
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Just for info
Henry Hamill, baker aged 25 yrs death 1879
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1879/06500/4871432.pdf
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Marriage of Ann Hamill, daughter of Patrick, baker
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10731/5912258.pdf
Patrick - living in 1889.
The parish record for Edward and Theresa shows both sets of parents’ residence as Portadown. Was this an error?
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The Patrick Hamill who is a Baker is not related to the Teresa I seek. He is almost the same age as her. Teresa Hamill married my great grandfather Edward in 1871 in Belfast. Edward's father was George McCann married to Mary Lappan. When I do not know bu they had 3 sons Edward Patrick and George and 2 daughters Rose and Elizabeth McCann both died in New York. Elizabeth's married name was Sullivan. Rose was unmarried.
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Patrick and Ann (baker) are in Armagh though not Portadown.
Re the child b 1869, I had wondered if there was a civil marriage about this time but I can’t find one.
I wondered if the parish one we have was later due to Theresa being Catholic and Edward not. However, there is nothing to support the theory. :-\
Edward and Teresa were married in St Peter's Belfast in 1971 both Catholics.
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Yes, I posted the details earlier.
Sorry, I didn’t make myself clear. I was just wondering.
As they had a child in 1869, and the child was registered legitimately, they may have married prior to this but there is no civil record of a marriage around 1869, so presumably not.
Had they done so and Edward was maybe not a Catholic, they might then have had the Catholic ceremony to legitimise the relationship in Theresa’s faith.
I hope that make sense.
It really doesn’t matter but you wonder why they married so long after the child’s birth.
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Regarding Patrick Hamill of Portadown.
We had the death of Patrick of Union Street informed by a son, Francis.
Valuation revision books show Patrick Hamill as the occupier of the house numbered 32, Union Street in 1870. The previous occupant, Alexander Noble's name is crossed through and Patrick’s written above.
The records continue until 1891/96 in that name.
I had previously seen the marriage of a Mary Hamill, of Edgarstown with a father Patrick Hamill but put it aside. However, the valuation books show Union Street, Edgarstown, so the marriage might be relevant.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1877/11148/8083359.pdf
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Here is the death of Anne Hamill. Her daughter, Theresa McCann is the informant.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1899/05799/4640901.pdf
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Here is the death of Anne Hamill. Her daughter, Theresa McCann is the informant.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1899/05799/4640901.pdf
The address is listed as 3 Croziers Row Belfast? death recorded in Belfast so Ann/e may have been staying with Teresa.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/proni/8865018457/in/photostream/
So inching forward we may have a Francis, Mary & T/heresa Hamill as children of the later Patrick & Ann Hamill.
I found this ref in the 1901 census but couldn't immediately link it but it is from William St Portadown and is for a living Henry Hamill aged 50 in 1901 - born apx 1851. Only trouble is he is from Co Monaghan though his later children are born in co Armagh. I have seen families from Co Monaghan while searching. Perhaps the significance is that the family uses many of the same names as the two Armagh/Portadown Hamills but then again some were not uncommon names.
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Portadown_Urban/William_Street/1030797/
He is a cattle dealer.
And 1911
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Portadown_Urban/William_Street/301220/
Tip:
If this were my family OP I would be using an excel spreadsheet to record/track all these Hamills. It seems it is a large family and a bit resistant to a linear progression back. This means going laterally for links might be the way of going. I feel with all the interlinking names and various ones from various generations that this may prove to be a fascinating exercise in tracking a large Irish family that is possibly spread across several counties.
If the spreadsheet has different cells for name and surname, date of birth, spouse,location then you can search by manipulating cells etc.
Portadown did have a well used sale yards and there is something niggling at the back of my mind that Co Monaghan cattle had/probably still have a great reputation. I think recently around the time of the troubles there may have been rustling and some shooting of cattle. Co Monaghan is one of the three Ulster Counties in the Republic. (with Co Cavan and Co Donegal)
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Here is the death of Anne Hamill. Her daughter, Theresa McCann is the informant.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1899/05799/4640901.pdf
Well found ;D Same address as Edward Jnr's birth registration.
If this were my family OP I would be using an excel spreadsheet to record/track all these Hamills. It seems it is a large family and a bit resistant to a linear progression back. This means going laterally for links might be the way of going. I feel with all the interlinking names and various ones from various generations that this may prove to be a fascinating exercise in tracking a large Irish family that is possibly spread across several counties.
If the spreadsheet has different cells for name and surname, date of birth, spouse,location then you can search by manipulating cells etc.
I was thinking the same thing. With lack of census and patchy church records, apart from DNA it might be the only way to start forming family groups.
I was looking at Patrick HAMILL and Ann DEVLIN who resided at Breagh and had three children baptised that I can see - Francis, 1858, James, 1861, and Hugh, 1863. Sponsors for Hugh were Felix and Rosann (?) HAMILL. I can't see a marriage so I don't know if this Patrick and Ann may have had older children.
Debra :)
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I found this ref in the 1901 census but couldn't immediately link it but it is from William St Portadown and is for a living Henry Hamill aged 50 in 1901 - born apx 1851. Only trouble is he is from Co Monaghan though his later children are born in co Armagh.
Not part of this research. This Henry’s father was John.
1)marriage to Mary McCardle in 1878, Monaghan
2) marriage to Mary Mills in 1889, Clones
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Here is the death of Anne Hamill. Her daughter, Theresa McCann is the informant.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1899/05799/4640901.pdf
The address is listed as 3 Croziers Row Belfast? death recorded in Belfast so Ann/e may have been staying with Teresa.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/proni/8865018457/in/photostream/
So inching forward we may have a Francis, Mary & T/heresa Hamill as children of the later Patrick & Ann Hamill.
I found this ref in the 1901 census but couldn't immediately link it but it is from William St Portadown and is for a living Henry Hamill aged 50 in 1901 - born apx 1851. Only trouble is he is from Co Monaghan though his later children are born in co Armagh. I have seen families from Co Monaghan while searching. Perhaps the significance is that the family uses many of the same names as the two Armagh/Portadown Hamills but then again some were not uncommon names.
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Portadown_Urban/William_Street/1030797/
He is a cattle dealer.
And 1911
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Portadown_Urban/William_Street/301220/
Tip:
If this were my family OP I would be using an excel spreadsheet to record/track all these Hamills. It seems it is a large family and a bit resistant to a linear progression back. This means going laterally for links might be the way of going. I feel with all the interlinking names and various ones from various generations that this may prove to be a fascinating exercise in tracking a large Irish family that is possibly spread across several counties.
If the spreadsheet has different cells for name and surname, date of birth, spouse,location then you can search by manipulating cells etc.
Portadown did have a well used sale yards and there is something niggling at the back of my mind that Co Monaghan cattle had/probably still have a great reputation. I think recently around the time of the troubles there may have been rustling and some shooting of cattle. Co Monaghan is one of the three Ulster Counties in the Republic. (with Co Cavan and Co Donegal)
Eureka That is it. Edward and Teresa lived in 3 Croziers Row Where Edward died. Thank you Shanreagh for this it is the exactly what i have been looking for. Fantastic news. That is why I couldn't
find her I had no idea she was in Belfast living with her daughter. Great work Shanreagh. And many thanks to everyone who took the time to research with this.
It looks like Anne went to help Teresa as her husband Edward died in 1897 then Anne died 2 years later in 1899. But now it looks like Anne was born in 1831 given her age at death. Might be of help for a marriage date to Patrick. Hopefully.
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I don’t want to detract from shanreagh’s excellent contributions but may I just point out that I found the death of Ann Hamill - please read from post #40 onwards.
If Ann was the wife of Patrick of Portadown (Dundee posted that death), she may well have moved to Belfast then.
The Valuation records seem to support that theory. However, that is just what it is a theory.
At least you now have Ann’s death to work from. :)
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I don’t want to detract from shanreagh’s excellent contributions but may I just point out that I found the death of Ann Hamill - please read from post #40 onwards.
If Ann was the wife of Patrick of Portadown (Dundee posted that death), she may well have moved to Belfast then.
The Valuation records seem to support that theory. However, that is just what it is a theory.
At least you now have Ann’s death to work from. :)
Just confirming .....yes my link was to the find by Heywood.
And agree that the Henry may not be a close Hamill relation....but as always, why, when in theory he and his family had the whole of Ireland to choose from, did they move to Portadown where other Hamills were living. Perhaps a case of internal within ireland migration.
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Yes - you are right that could be possible.
There are so many Hamills around.
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I don’t want to detract from shanreagh’s excellent contributions but may I just point out that I found the death of Ann Hamill - please read from post #40 onwards.
If Ann was the wife of Patrick of Portadown (Dundee posted that death), she may well have moved to Belfast then.
The Valuation records seem to support that theory. However, that is just what it is a theory.
At least you now have Ann’s death to work from. :)
Apologies Heywood a lot to take in. At the end of the day my one aim is to find as much about my family the McCann's.
In particular Edward McCann my great grandfather who I cannot find on the birth date register. He was from Drumcree (St John's Catholic) area. But for what I think is his birth year that being 1845 around the time of the famine the Drumcree birth register book is pretty blank for births through out that year, and no wonder, as I say people were trying to survive and trying to find 2s 6p for a baptism registration would not have been top of their concerns. So the journey continues. Where is the question. So again thanks to everyone for their contributions.
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https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0213
Baptisms begin 1844, so if 1845 is an approximate date, it could be that his birth was pre 1844.
I would imagine that he would be baptised - it was important and you do see records where there was no charge.
Did I see that his father was George? Ignore that - it was the church record ::)
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There are several records for George McCann in Drumcree /Portadown.
1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Portadown_Urban/Woodhouse_Street/1030869/
I thought at first that Rose in that census might be the Rose baptised to G and M McCann but she isn’t.
However, Valuation Revision books show George McCann snr and George jnr as occupiers/owners of property in Woodhouse Street and Union Street, I think.
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Here is one death for Woodhouse Street
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1883/06348/4821060.pdf
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The George I am related to was married to Mary Lappen (wrong spelling) he didn't own a pub. Children Edward Patrick George Rose Elizabeth. But the only one I can't find a birth for is Edward. But whet I did find out was that Patrick lived with Edward for a time in Belfast before going to live in Glasgow. Where Edward had come back from after the death of 3 of his children. I also found a reference to Edward being at the death of his brother George (a farmer) in Armagh.
They all seem to come from Drumcree in relation to their births. But as I said for some reason there are blank pages for 1845 in the Drumcree church records. So it could be this is why Edward's not on the register. But to be honest the ages recorded have to be suspect in a lot of cases due to illiteracy being rampant back then.
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Thanks - that’s a pity as the names George and Patrick occur in the various records around the same streets as the Hamills.
Popular names, I suppose.
When did George die?
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Thanks - that’s a pity as the names George and Patrick occur in the various records around the same streets as the Hamills.
Popular names, I suppose.
When did George die?
I don't know when George died I can't even find a marriage entry for him and Mary Lappen. I've come up against the cut off date for records. But it might also be the case that they were married in another parish in Armagh. But I suppose I am not alone in this instance. I looked up quite a few George Mccann's but some died in the Workhouse so no addresses to help cross reference to. But at a rough estimate he would have been born around 1825.
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I meant the brother, George.
You write:
“I also found a reference to Edward being at the death of his brother George (a farmer) in Armagh.”
I see a tree has Patrick McCann marrying in Belfast in 1881, but I can’t see that marriage. He then goes to Glasgow and has several children there according to the tree.
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I am puzzled as to why we are now following the McCann Family?
Are you know no longer interested in the Hamills?
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Reply #49 leads into request re McCann family.
At least, I assumed it meant that. :-\
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Reply #49 leads into request re McCann family.
At least, I assumed it meant that. :-\
I see that, we started with a hiss and roar looking for Hamills, only one of whom, down the track had married a McCann.
Perhaps I just feel that if the OP is interested in the McCanns then we could/should have started with the McCanns and not the Hamills. Got nothing against the McCanns as some of my forebears are McCanns from the quaintly named Bumlin Townland in Co Roscommon.
I feel the thread with its early concentration on Hamills will be confusing in the future.
Perhaps a new thread could be started after post 49 with links back to the Hamill thread.
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Perhaps so and I apologise for any confusion I have brought to the discussion.
My feelings are that the Hamill search started with a bit of vague information that was not evidenced.
The church record shows both sets of parents in Portadown.
Ann Hamill’s death has been found - evidenced.
My assumptions then through valuation books and other records from Union Street (can’t remember what it was sorry) that the Hamills were mostly sorted.
As mackers then introduced the McCanns, I tried to research them.
Mackers, perhaps you should ask a moderator to split this thread now as shanreagh suggests and rename it for the McCann.
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If i could explain. What I am trying to do is as was mentioned in an earlier post was to lateralise the research to give as much information as possible. Apologies if this wasn't helpful. But the Hamill/McCann story is a big factor in my quest. In that from my first find many years back this was the only reference I had to go on. As I pointed out I am stuck with the problem concerning no confirmed marriage record for either Patrick/Anne Hamill or George McCann/Mary Lappen. They were married I just cannot find when, or where.
All I clumsily (as it turned out) was trying to do was expand the connection in the hope their are other records I don't know about, but that others like yourselves do. That might find such a connection. Believe me I am very grateful for all the contributions offered. Sadly what I have found out over a long period of time is that we are all hindered by a lack of proper records of that time, and illiteracy as well of that time. But as I am sure you know in the last number of years newer records are being released so I try from time to time to revisit the site to see if I can get updates on such happenings.
Again forgive me for any confusion here it was not my intension to cause any such feelings. Thanks Ed
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Thanks - that’s a pity as the names George and Patrick occur in the various records around the same streets as the Hamills.
Popular names, I suppose.
When did George die?
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Thanks - that’s a pity as the names George and Patrick occur in the various records around the same streets as the Hamills.
Popular names, I suppose.
When did George die?
The George as in Edward's brother was born on the 19th of August 1850 and died on the 27th of September 1887 aged 36 on the record but was actually 37.
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Thank you.
I apologise for always asking for clarification etc.
How do you know that they are your George and Edward? Do you have other references/evidence?
Is this the death?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1887/06200/4773364.pdf
George’s residence is Derrytagh South
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-east/montiaghs/montiaghs/derrytagh-south/
And Edward’s residence might be Derryall - what do you have? There is a Derryall bordering Derrytagh.
Or more likely, Derryadd
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-east/montiaghs/montiaghs/derryadd/
From your Edward’s children’s births, he would be resident in Belfast then.
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1901 census shows an Edward McCann in Derryadd.
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Montiaghs/Derryadd/1027097/
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Thank you.
I apologise for always asking for clarification etc.
How do you know that they are your George and Edward? Do you have other references/evidence?
Is this the death?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1887/06200/4773364.pdf
George’s residence is Derrytagh South
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-east/montiaghs/montiaghs/derrytagh-south/
And Edward’s residence might be Derryall - what do you have? There is a Derryall bordering Derrytagh.
Or more likely, Derryadd
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-east/montiaghs/montiaghs/derryadd/
From your Edward’s children’s births, he would be resident in Belfast then.
Hi no problem with any clarification. The Edward you posted was CofI mine was RC from any thing I have seen.
But thanks to your good work it is clear that both Edward and his wife Teresa were keeping in contact with their familes back in Portadown. As in 1881 his Edward's brother Patrick lives with him for a time in Belfast before he got married to a Mary Hughes before going to Glasgow in Scotland where Edward had just returned from.
Also as you can see the George McCann date of birth compared to his age at death are almost exact. In addition there is a constant within the family circle of the McCann's that went on long after the time I am looking at. In that the family names kept up for over 100 years. Including to this day.
If I may ask I noticed there were 2 Catholic Churches in Drumcree St John's and St Patrick's and was wondering if St Patrick's register is not on line?
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Yes, your Edward was Catholic but it seems odd that there is someone of that name living in the same townland where Edward, the informant at death was living.
If you believe that this George and Edward are yours, perhaps your search is not in Portadown itself but townlands a bit further away.
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Yes, your Edward was Catholic but it seems odd that there is someone of that name living in the same townland where Edward, the informant at death was living.
If you believe that this George and Edward are yours, perhaps your search is not in Portadown itself but townlands a bit further away.
Believe me on this journey I would consider any possibility at this stage. But the one constant as i said is the names they have never changed over all the times. My grandfather had two brothers who survived, and they all gave their children the same family names both boys and girls.
That said if the evidence in the shape of addresses and proven connections you are still left to wonder. Hopefully other records will be found and released. As a point of information on my mothers side of the family a fair proportion were Church of Ireland and the records for her relations are numerous and accurate to the nth degree. Which was great for research. But when you start off on the wrong foot as I did many years ago there is a lot of time wasted. But such is the nature of the beast. Many thanks Heywood and regards. Ed
PS Edward and Teresa's wedding.
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Here is some more info and I think the odds are against that George being yours - sorry.
Griffiths Valuation Derrytagh South, Richard MCann, plot 28a
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01so1/
Valuation Revision books
1865 28a - Richard McCann crossed through and ? McCann written above. ancestry transcribes this as John but I think it is ‘Geo’.
1879/91 28a - George McCann crossed through and Eliza McCann written
above
1891/1900 28a - Eliza McCann crossed through and Hampton Lynas written above
1894 marriage Hampton Lyness and Ruth McCann (father Richard)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1894/10578/5853512.pdf
1901 census http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Montiaghs/Derrytagh_South/1027424/
Hampton and Ruth Lynas with mother in law Elizabeth McCann.
They are Church of Ireland.
It seems very possible that this is George McCann’s family.
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If I may ask I noticed there were 2 Catholic Churches in Drumcree St John's and St Patrick's and was wondering if St Patrick's register is not on line?
St John the Baptist church opened in 1977. https://www.drumcreeparish.com/content/view/80/318/
Added
Just to add to the George and Edward you had, Edward in 1901 from Derryadd was married to Margaret Morrison. (Children’s births verify this).
The marriage certificate shows his father as Richard. Edward was a policeman at the time of his marriage.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1876/11174/8094165.pdf
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I really don't think the Richard connection is part of the story.
I have details of the McCann family through my research except for Edward's birth date record. The George in questions date of birth and date of death are pretty much conclusive add to the fact I have details of all the family except Georges, reason? If you look at the death record he is single ergo no family of his own to find.
For example Patrick went to Glasgow via Belfast where he lived with Edward for a time. Rose their sister went to New York where she lived with her sister Elizabeth. Where they both died of cancer.
I did think for a time that the family were CofI but as I said the C of I records were way better than those the R.C.
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You must believe what you find of course.
I agree with you that Richard has no part in your story.
However, that George is in Derrytagh with valuation records that show George taking over from Richard McCann.
Marriage records show that Edward, son of Richard married and was resident in Derryadd.
Marriage records show that Ruth McCann, daughter of Richard, married and her husband’s name succeeded to Derrytagh property.
There are many McCanns named George and Edward in Irish records.
I think that the George and Edward you have posted are part of Richard’s family and therefore have no connection to your family.
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A poser for sure. But finally I found a copy of Edward and Teresa's wedding record. And apologies it doesn't give the maiden names of their mothers.
But it gives the names of the Drumcree priests who they had to get their dispensation from Rev W Blaney and Rev J Carroll (see attachment) Tried to look up priests from that time in Drumcree 1871 and came up blank. Wonder if they were in a different parish?
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The priests were from St Peter’s Belfast (the Cathedral) not Drumcree.
Wikipedia has a list of past administrators (from the Cathedral website) and shows Fr William Blaney was the Vicar General there 1866-1873.
Fr Carroll baptised their son, Patrick in 1871 at St Peter’s.
It is interesting, I think, that the parents are not shown as ‘deceased’ and that their residence is Portadown - rather than anywhere else.
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Thanks for that Heywood. The DISP of the form through me. I thought it was for Dispensation. That is why for some time I thought Edward was C of I and needed to convert. Also in some documents Edward's father was down as George W Cann but on closer examination the W was actually Mc. Just written down badly. It is the small things that can trip you up.
But then as you rightly point out both their parents are alive in 1871. So you would think it would be easy enough to find records for their deaths. Yet not so as it turns out. My only guess is that either the ages are way out or they mostly died in the Workhouse. As you can see they are both Edward and Teresa are down as R.C. on the marriage cert. We only have Teresa's mothers death as certain to back track from. No luck yet from my research. Regards Ed
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Have you considered the ones I posted in Portadown.
You dismissed them because you said George was a farmer but I wonder how you would know that.
I can’t say they are your family but worth noting perhaps.
Were there any parents mentioned in US records for the two sisters?
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I was just looking through some of the posts there now. So I back tracked from Anne Hamill's death date compared to her age at death and she would have been born around 1831 ergo she was about 18 when she had Teresa going on Teresa's age at her death. So I back tracked the records for a Patrick Hamill death and came back to an earlier post for Patrick Hamill Union st with a son called Francis. Which lead to the Monaghan connection. Once again the family names kicked in. So I am inclined to think that this is the Hamill connection.
As for the American connection This came out of the blue through Family Search IGI. As newer files were released including parent names. But also on another thread i asked about such a connection but put it in the wrong section. Only to get a reply about an Elizabeth McCann married to a John Sullivan her parents names where there George McCann and Mary Lappan Ireland. Then a follow up when Elizabeth had a child called Katie (mary) Sullivan. in New York. Then the flood gates opened Kate (Mary) married a Frank (Fischer) Fisher and had quite a few children all recorded in the U.S. census over many years. (By the way in our family to this day all the girls who were called Mary where called Kate or Katie. Strange?)
Then I found Rose McCann on a ships manifest going to join her sister Mrs Elizabeth Sullivan nee McCann in Manhattan New York. But later discovered Rose died of Cancer in 1909 in New York. Later found that Elizabeth also got the same cancer and died in1924. She is buried in the same grave as her sister Rose in the Holy Cross Cemetery New york. Ergo if you have the records all is easy enough.
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Here are the certs. Had to make them smaller to post.
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The priests were from St Peter’s Belfast (the Cathedral) not Drumcree.
Wikipedia has a list of past administrators (from the Cathedral website) and shows Fr William Blaney was the Vicar General there 1866-1873.
Fr Carroll baptised their son, Patrick in 1871 at St Peter’s.
It is interesting, I think, that the parents are not shown as ‘deceased’ and that their residence is Portadown - rather than anywhere else.
You are right why is the child Patrick not down as illegitimate???
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You would need to check but I think he was baptised after the marriage. Maybe then it would depend on the priest’s interpretation or that he was made legitimate by the marriage.
I wonder why it took so long for their marriage? We will never know though.
Again, if I recall he was registered as McCann on his birth.
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You would need to check but I think he was baptised after the marriage. Maybe then it would depend on the priest’s interpretation or that he was made legitimate by the marriage.
I wonder why it took so long for their marriage? We will never know though.
Again, if I recall he was registered as McCann on his birth.
well done Heywood you were right here is the baptism record for 1871 just after the marriage.
Sadly young Patrick didn't live that long as he died in Glasgow a few years later.
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So I think after all this time I have got a handle on this Hamill quest. To put it like this the Patrick Hamill who was a baker and he was married to Anne Carr he is actually the Teresa McCann nee Hamill's brother ergo that is why he had a daughter he called Teresa after his sister.
Then as it turned out his Father was a Patrick Hamill who was married to an Anne Devlin and who's other son was called Francis. That is why I was always wondering where my Grandfather Francis McCann got his first name. When i went through the many date lines this seemed to be the correct age for all concerned. Part of the reason for missing some of this was because the fact that some of their names were written in Latin and births were in a different parish in Armagh. So thanks to all who took the time to research this for me. As the answer came from a mixture of sources posted. Thanks again Ed
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I am wondering about the location of the townland of Breagh? As it seems that if it was partly in Portadown as there was a few Catholic churches in it's area to choose from.
To explain in the excellent Irish Genealogy site it has both Armagh and Lurgan options, yet in a number of look ups refer to Drumcree in Portadown being in both Armagh and Lurgan. Which is a bit confusing as it also brings in Loughgall as well. Is this the case?
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Breagh townland sits in three parishes -- Drumcree, Tartaraghan and Seagoe.
It lies also in two registration districts (for civil registrations) -- Armagh & Lurgan.
https://www.townlands.ie/search/?q=breagh
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Breagh townland sits in three parishes -- Drumcree, Tartaraghan and Seagoe.
It lies also in two registration districts (for civil registrations) -- Armagh & Lurgan.
https://www.townlands.ie/search/?q=breagh
Thanks Eileen I was wondering as to why it was so hard to find some family details as to baptisms back to the grind stone for me. Regards Ed
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Breagh townland sits in three parishes -- Drumcree, Tartaraghan and Seagoe.
It lies also in two registration districts (for civil registrations) -- Armagh & Lurgan.
https://www.townlands.ie/search/?q=breagh
Thanks Eileen I was wondering as to why it was so hard to find some family details as to baptisms back to the grind stone for me. Regards Ed
I would suggest that there are two possibly three separate townlands named Breagh in Co. Armagh, the one in Seogoe parish (https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-east/seagoe/carrowbrack/breagh/) to the south east of Portadown, and the others a little further away to the northwest of Portadown on or near the A4 road, the first in Tartaraghan (https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-west/tartaraghan/tartaraghan/breagh/) parish and the second just to the south in Drumcree (https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-west/drumcree/breagh/breagh/) parish.
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Breagh townland sits in three parishes -- Drumcree, Tartaraghan and Seagoe.
It lies also in two registration districts (for civil registrations) -- Armagh & Lurgan.
https://www.townlands.ie/search/?q=breagh
Thanks Eileen I was wondering as to why it was so hard to find some family details as to baptisms back to the grind stone for me. Regards Ed
I would suggest that there are two possibly three separate townlands named Breagh in Co. Armagh, the one in Seogoe parish (https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-east/seagoe/carrowbrack/breagh/) to the south east of Portadown, and the others a little further away to the northwest of Portadown on or near the A4 road, the first in Tartaraghan (https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-west/tartaraghan/tartaraghan/breagh/) parish and the second just to the south in Drumcree (https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-west/drumcree/breagh/breagh/) parish.
Many thanks yes I've looked up three possible parishes but I have zeroed in on Drumcress in the main my problem being the fact that the first 3 to 4 months of Drumcree records seem to be blank more that likely due to the Famine around 1845, the year i am most interested in.