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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Venster1972 on Saturday 09 September 23 11:23 BST (UK)
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Hi.
I’ve just received a copy of a marriage certificate of my great grandmother and the father of the bride has been put down as her brother, and not her actual Father. This was only back in 1940 and witnessed by, I’m assuming going by the names, her sister and BIL. So they must have all been in on it.
Any reasons why this would have been done?
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What do you mean by “all been in on it”
Was she brought up by her father and mother? Perhaps her brother was a father figure to her, was her father alive at the time?
Or it could have been a simple mistake - did they have similar first names the father and brother?
You could also check to see what name her sister put down when she married.
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May be not the correct phrase, but they must have known the information was wrong.
You could be right because she had an child with a father ‘unknown’ and maybe she was disowned. There’s lots of ‘maybes’ I think.
The correct father was Robert Copson Venney and her brother was John Robert Veni(deceased), who is on the certificate.
But I can’t find any record of a death for Robert Copson Venney either.
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Ignore that. Think I may have found record for Robert Copson Venney death. He passed in 1901 and maybe John Robert was a father figure to her as she grew up. But I have her birth certificate and she was born in 1903 and her father is named as Robert Veni, informant R.Veni.
So confusing or maybe I’m not seeing something obvious 🤯
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Ok so could it be Robert Copson Venney was her grandfather that passed in 1901?
Who is the mother on her birth certificate?
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There is a younger sister Jessie born 1907, so their father must have still been alive in 1906 for the conception. (Assuming they all have the same father)
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This was only back in 1940 and witnessed by, I’m assuming going by the names, her sister and BIL. So they must have all been in on it.
Any reasons why this would have been done?
Maybe they witnesses did not read the document, they were after all only witnessing the bride and groom signing the register
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This was only back in 1940 and witnessed by, I’m assuming going by the names, her sister and BIL. So they must have all been in on it.
Any reasons why this would have been done?
Maybe they witnesses did not read the document, they were after all only witnessing the bride and groom signing the register
I agree with Rosie. Just because someone has been a witness it doesn't necessarily mean they have looked in detail at the document.
Whoever was conducting the ceremony would have said to them 'sign here' and that's what they did.
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Here’s a copy of some certificates I have
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We are not allowed to post full copies of certificates on here. You would be better just posting a cropped portion of the part you need us to see
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Oh. Sorry, didn’t realise.
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I've got a couple where the father passed away, his children retained his surname even though by the time of the marriage there is a stepfather. in the picture. Marriage certs then have the forename of the stepfather and surname of the father.
Unless the registrar knew the family personally it's largely down to how the question about the father was asked, what information was provided and/or how it was interpreted at the time.
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Here’s a copy of what I have.
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Ignore that. Think I may have found record for Robert Copson Venney death. He passed in 1901 and maybe John Robert was a father figure to her as she grew up. But I have her birth certificate and she was born in 1903 and her father is named as Robert Veni, informant R.Veni.
So confusing or maybe I’m not seeing something obvious 🤯
If that death is correct there, Ellen had 3 daughters after his death.
Is there any other information re ‘R Veni’, the informant?
Perhaps Ellen gave false information on the later birth registrations, you would need to check the others.
The children would never have known their father so it might have been more convenient to use her brother’s name or she may not have known her father’s name.
Again, do you have any sibling marriage details?
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I see our posts crossed.
You would assume then, that a male registered the death.
Perhaps check that death you found.
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I’m early days trying to find out any extra information and at £11 a certificate it soon adds up.
Just wish there was a cheaper way of finding things out for definite.
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Robert Copson Venney/Veni had died by 1911, when his wife descibes herself as a widow.
Your Great grandmother's brother, John Robert was only three years older than her. Probably not someone she would consider to be a father figure.
When she married, was her mother still living?
Robert Copson Venney didn't use his middle name when he married, and it doesn't appear on the 1901 census, or on your great grandmother's birth certificate
Perhaps, by the 1940s, the family understood that John Robert had been named after his father, and thought that he was also John Robert. If there was no one alive to say otherwise, that's what would be recorded in the register.
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Perhaps, by the 1940s, the family understood that John Robert had been named after his father, and thought that he was also John Robert.
I agree :) They would not have had to produce any proof of their fathers names and occupations
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Robert Copson Venney/Veni had died by 1911, when his wife descibes herself as a widow.
Your Great grandmother's brother, John Robert was only three years older than her. Probably not someone she would consider to be a father figure.
When she married, was her mother still living?
Robert Copson Venney didn't use his middle name when he married, and it doesn't appear on the 1901 census, or on your great grandmother's birth certificate
Perhaps, by the 1940s, the family understood that John Robert had been named after his father, and thought that he was also John Robert. If there was no one alive to say otherwise, that's what would be recorded in the register.
This would make sense I suppose. Her mother had died before 1940, in 1932, according to my tree that I have.
If the info I have from FreeBMD, Robert Venney died in 1901- how could he be the informant on Caroline’s birth certificate in 1903?
This is so confusing!
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I’m early days trying to find out any extra information and at £11 a certificate it soon adds up.
Just wish there was a cheaper way of finding things out for definite.
PDF's at £7 are available for some births and deaths, also an even cheaper option for Digital images at £2.50 for some dates
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp
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Is the death you have, Robert Venney, 36 yrs Ely.
1891 has a Robert Veney b 1864, Ely with father Jacob
1901 has a Robert Verny b 1865 in hospital.
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I am confused, it’s easily done.
The certificates don’t match. The birth certificate is for a girl surname VENI but the marriage certificate shows the bride Helen BROUGHTON and the groom Robert VENI.
James VENI deceased is named as grooms father not John.
According to the certificate Helen made her mark rather than signed.
The certificate is only a copy, so it is quite possibly for whoever transcribed the original to have made a complete mess of the facts.
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The marriage certificate is for the parents of the 1903 birth
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There is a report in The Peterborough Express 9 October 1907 of an application for compensation by Ellen Veni for the death of her husband Robert while he was employed by Messrs. Freer Brothers of Stanground.
Robert had been drowned while working on a lighter (a river boat carrying cargo). He was said to be short sighted, and wore glasses. The accident happened on 31 July 1907, at Whittlesey.
The death index shows a death of Robert Beni aged 40* in 3rd quarter of 1907 in Whittlesey district
*the newspaper says he was 37 - but very likely whoever reported the death to the registrar wasn't someone who knew him well enough to have his correct age.
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Well done and thank you, Galium. :)
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The marriage certificate is for the parents of the 1903 birth
Thanks Rosie, the heat must be getting to my brain. ;D
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Thank you very much for this info Galium.
I’ve just realised I’ve not posted what I meant to 🤦♂️ so here it is 🙄
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That says John Robert Veni Deceased.
Is the point that the father's name was not John Robert Veni?
If the father had died much earlier then there may be confusion over the name, the children may never have seen some thing official with the father's name on it.