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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Northumberland => England => Northumberland Lookup Requests => Topic started by: mulberry-rose on Wednesday 18 October 23 21:59 BST (UK)
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Hello I am new to these forums so sorry if my post is worded a little awkwardly.
I’ve been struggling to locate the birth record or a baptism record of my relative.
Her name is Margaret Rooney and she was born to John Rooney and Ellen Conroy from Jan-Jun 1888. The census says her location of birth was Widdrington, Northumberland.
She does not have any middle names. Rooney is sometimes spelt as Roney. I’ve tried every wildcard on FreeBMD, but no avail. The only hint of a birth I can find is an article from the Morpeth Herald dated 11th May 1888, “Widdrington Middle Stead, 9th inst. the wife of Mr. John Rooney, of a daughter.” However since this doesn’t say her name I cannot completely be sure it’s her.
The parishes her siblings were baptised in are St Bedes Bedlington, St Cuthberts Amble (the siblings born before and after her were baptised here) and St Roberts Morpeth.
I thought there was a possibility she might’ve been born in Lanarkshire as in the 1891 census she’s living in Scotland with her family which would explain the lack of any records. One of her younger siblings was born in Lanarkshire which would suggest they might’ve moved there and back to England a few times (but even then his baptism was in England). Not certain though.
Many thanks. :)
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Welcome to RootsChat :)
If I have the right person, on her death records Margaret’s date of birth is given as
20 Sep. 1889
1889 birth also agrees with age on 1901 and 1911 census
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I see the family is living in Old Monkland Western District in the 1891 census
There is a birth registration in the same district for a Margaret Rooney in 1890
REFERENCE 652 / 1 / 60
Unfortunately the index does not give mother’s name
Added
If Margaret was born late in 1889, and the family were travelling to Scotland shortly after, it would explain a birth registration in 1890.
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1891 has a 6yr old son Bernard (Barnard) shown as b England but there is no birth with a mmn of Conroy
There is an 1881 marriage for John Rooney & Helen Conroy 1881 Old Monkland
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Welcome to RootsChat :)
If I have the right person, on her death records Margaret’s date of birth is given as
20 Sep. 1889
1889 birth also agrees with age on 1901 and 1911 census
Hello, thank you for the lookup and the welcome. :)
Unfortunately this is not her. It gets very confusing (and frustrating) on ancestry as many people have made errors regarding her death and birth.
Margaret briefly went by the surname Docherty, and here she has been mistaken by many for another women by the name of Margaret Docherty who was actually born to parents Thomas and Jane in Lancashire.
Instead, Margaret reverted to her maiden name of Rooney (I suspect her two children in 1911 census were illegitimate and she never married anyone named Docherty, only the fathers surname was Docherty).
and married a man named Patrick Green in Jul-Aug-Sep of 1911. His military records show her children in the 1911 census (Ellen and James) as his stepchildren. His records later show his as widowed with three children.
I am certain this cannot be her as she died in childbirth under the surname of Green with my great grandmother in 1914 who was given up for adoption (if she was alive ggrandmother wouldn’t have been given up.)
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1891 has a 6yr old son Bernard (Barnard) shown as b England but there is no birth with a mmn of Conroy
There is an 1881 marriage for John Rooney & Helen Conroy 1881 Old Monkland
Thank you for searching, I did not know that John and Ellen were married in Scotland. Interesting.
She is a mystery. All her siblings have records except for her.
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Patrick Green & Margaret Rooney married 1911 - Morpeth
Margaret Green aged 26 died March qtr 1914 Morpeth
Phyllis A Green mmn Rooney birth was registered June qtr 1914
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Patrick Green & Margaret Rooney married 1911 - Morpeth
Margaret Green aged 26 died March qtr 1914 Morpeth
Phyllis A Green mmn Rooney birth was registered June qtr 1914
:) Yes this is her.
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I see the family is living in Old Monkland Western District in the 1891 census
There is a birth registration in the same district for a Margaret Rooney in 1890
REFERENCE 652 / 1 / 60
Unfortunately the index does not give mother’s name
This is a possible lead, I hope. Shame it doesn’t show the maiden name. I wonder if it got registered late because they moved after her birth (if her).
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This looks interesting, wondering is Patrick Green an alias for Dockerty maybe, or another altogether?
Name Ellen Docherty
Gender Female
Baptism Date 16 Feb 1907
Baptism Place St. Cuthbert, Cowpen, Northumberland, England
Father Patricii Docherty
Mother Margaritae Rooney
FHL Film Number 2046655
Cas
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1911 she is Maggie Docherty living with parents. Scotlands People have a 1905 marriage for Maggie Rooney to Patrick Docherty
John Rooney was b Glasgow which may be why the marriage was in Scotland but it doesn’t explain the
lack of birth registrations.
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I see the family is living in Old Monkland Western District in the 1891 census
There is a birth registration in the same district for a Margaret Rooney in 1890
REFERENCE 652 / 1 / 60
Unfortunately the index does not give mother’s name
The only way to know is to obtain the certificate. I cannot see any Catholic baptism for her in Scotland.
Marriage Registration
ROONEY JOHN
CONROY HELEN
1881 652 / 2 / 13 OLD MONKLAND (MIDDLE DISTRICT)
Birth registration
ROONEY MARGARET
F 1890 652 / 1 / 60 OLD MONKLAND (WESTERN DISTRICT)
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This looks interesting, wondering is Patrick Green an alias for Dockerty maybe, or another altogether?
Name Ellen Docherty
Gender Female
Baptism Date 16 Feb 1907
Baptism Place St. Cuthbert, Cowpen, Northumberland, England
Father Patricii Docherty
Mother Margaritae Rooney
FHL Film Number 2046655
Cas
Hello, thank you.
I had noticed this before, I think it is another Patrick and not Green as he was listed as step-father on the military records. I did find a Patrick Docherty born 1883 living as a boarder at Bedlington in 1911. I do think this is Margaret’s daughter though, she was born nearby.
I found some newspaper articles between 1904-07 of a Patrick Green residing Bothwell, Lanarkshire about committing petty thefts and other crimes which would disregard him as Ellen’s father. Some things do like up — Patrick’s father was named Francis, there is an article about the death of a Francis Green killed in a colliery accident, with the age, and residence matching. Later there is an article mentioning that Patrick and a younger brother are the sole household income (which would be true if their father died). Also it wouldn’t be uncharacteristic; in his military records it says how he struck his commanding officer and a 1913 article says he got drunk and threatened to murder Margaret. :-\
I went a bit off track there, apologies. I just recently discovered these and am trying to conclude if it was him or not.
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1911 she is Maggie Docherty living with parents. Scotlands People have a 1905 marriage for Maggie Rooney to Patrick Docherty in Bothwell
John Rooney was b Glasgow which may be why the marriage was in Scotland but it doesn’t explain the
lack of birth registrations.
Wow that is brilliant, thank you very much, I have looked for that marriage record between Margaret and first husband for a long time. No wonder I couldn’t find it because it was in Scotland. I wonder what she was doing there. ;D
Ggmother was taken in by a neighbour—Margaret’s mother refused to take her in as she was already looking after Ellen and James I believe.
(Also, I was wondering could you possibly remove the stuff about ggmother, just for privacy :) )
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In 1881 Ellen is married & in Scotland - mistranscribed. Found entry & could kick myself as I closed the wrong tab on my ipad & lost it. Will look again
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Found them in 1881 Lanarkshire transcribed as Rowney
John 24 b Glasgow - coal miner
Helen 16 - b Northumberland
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1911 she is Maggie Docherty living with parents. Scotlands People have a 1905 marriage for Maggie Rooney to Patrick Docherty in Bothwell
John Rooney was b Glasgow which may be why the marriage was in Scotland but it doesn’t explain the
lack of birth registrations.
Married in Bothwell…hmm. That’s also the same parish Patrick Green was baptised/born in. It’s interesting seeing all these connections! I wonder if he knew the family prior and moved down with them when they went to England.
It is odd the lack of birth registrations.
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Found them - transcribed as Rowney
John 24 b Glasgow - coal miner
Helen 16 - b Northumberland
Thank you :)
Wow Ellen was very young. :o
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In 1901 Bothwell, there seems to be only 1 possible Patrick Docherty of the right age.
But I don’t feel confident he is the right one.
The marriage record will give his parents names and his age, etc, so you know who he is.
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ROONEY, BARNETT
Mother's maiden surname: CONROY
GRO Reference: 1885 J Quarter in MORPETH Volume 10B Page 362
ROONEY, ANN
Mother's maiden surname: CONROY
GRO Reference: 1893 D Quarter in MORPETH Volume 10B Page 388
RONEY, EDWARD
Mother's maiden surname: CONROY
GRO Reference: 1898 M Quarter in MORPETH Volume 10B Page 386
(Died Dec qtr 1898)
RONEY, JOSEPH CONROY
Mother's maiden surname: CONROY
GRO Reference: 1900 M Quarter in MORPETH Volume 10B Page 436
Debra :)
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Hi Mulberry Rose and welcome to RootsChat,
I think we will be 'cousins' of a degree as I think we have the same bloodline ancestors going way back - James Conroy & Mary Malloy.
I don't know if you might have already come across this but there is an Ellen Rooney of Morpeth mentioned a good few times on lists of outdoor relief in the Tynemouth Workhouse Minutes volumes. These volumes which are printed out are held at North Shields local studies.
Incidentally, I have a question for you as I think a lot of the Northumberland Conroys were connected. Ellen's brother Edward Conroy who was killed in WW1 had a daughter Margaret Theresa born 16 January 1900 bapt at St Robert Morpeth 28 March. Her sponsors were James Conroy and Bridget Gilboy. I suspect the latter Bridget was nee Conroy - daughter of Peter Conroy and Ann formerly Mackbride nee Miller. Peter's father was recorded as John Conroy - distiller. I do think that this Peter will tie into the Northumberland Conroy families but I haven't been able to pick up on a connection as yet. Just on the off chance I wonder if you might know?
You likely know that the above mentioned Edward also had a daughter Ellen/Helena born 3 January 1908 bapt St Robert, Morpeth on 11 January 1908 - sponsor/Godparent 'Helena Rooney'. Thought I would just mention it in case you might not have this info already.
Best Wishes :)
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In 1901 Bothwell, there seems to be only 1 possible Patrick Docherty of the right age.
But I don’t feel confident he is the right one.
The marriage record will give his parents names and his age, etc, so you know who he is.
There seems to be a lot of Patrick Dochertys! I didn’t even have his first name at the beginning of the year so getting this far is an achievement :). Hopefully by getting the record it will fill in a lot of details.
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ROONEY, BARNETT
Mother's maiden surname: CONROY
GRO Reference: 1885 J Quarter in MORPETH Volume 10B Page 362
ROONEY, ANN
Mother's maiden surname: CONROY
GRO Reference: 1893 D Quarter in MORPETH Volume 10B Page 388
RONEY, EDWARD
Mother's maiden surname: CONROY
GRO Reference: 1898 M Quarter in MORPETH Volume 10B Page 386
(Died Dec qtr 1898)
RONEY, JOSEPH CONROY
Mother's maiden surname: CONROY
GRO Reference: 1900 M Quarter in MORPETH Volume 10B Page 436
Debra :)
Thank you very much for finding the registrations for the siblings. :)
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Hi Mulberry Rose and welcome to RootsChat,
I think we will be 'cousins' of a degree as I think we have the same bloodline ancestors going way back - James Conroy & Mary Malloy.
I don't know if you might have already come across this but there is an Ellen Rooney of Morpeth mentioned a good few times on lists of outdoor relief in the Tynemouth Workhouse Minutes volumes. These volumes which are printed out are held at North Shields local studies.
Incidentally, I have a question for you as I think a lot of the Northumberland Conroys were connected. Ellen's brother Edward Conroy who was killed in WW1 had a daughter Margaret Theresa born 16 January 1900 bapt at St Robert Morpeth 28 March. Her sponsors were James Conroy and Bridget Gilboy. I suspect the latter Bridget was nee Conroy - daughter of Peter Conroy and Ann formerly Mackbride nee Miller. Peter's father was recorded as John Conroy - distiller. I do think that this Peter will tie into the Northumberland Conroy families but I haven't been able to pick up on a connection as yet. Just on the off chance I wonder if you might know?
You likely know that the above mentioned Edward also had a daughter Ellen/Helena born 3 January 1908 bapt St Robert, Morpeth on 11 January 1908 - sponsor/Godparent 'Helena Rooney'. Thought I would just mention it in case you might not have this info already.
Best Wishes :)
Hello, thank you for the welcome. :)
I agree, Ellen Conroy was the daughter of a Joseph Conroy and Mary Ann Allen. I didn’t know about the workhouse records, that’s very sad. I’ll have to pop up and have a look at them.
Patrick Green used to provide payments for my ggmother to be cared for, but he was unaware that Ellen hadn't taken her in. Ellen took the payments for herself but now that makes me think it was out of desperation.
I briefly remember seeing a baptism record with Ellen as a sponsor.
Unfortunately I don’t know if there was a connection between a Peter Conroy and the Morpeth Conroys. They’re all very confusing. :P
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Thank you to those who pointed me in the direction of ScotlandsPeople, I didn’t even think of looking in that direction. ;D
Unfortunately I did not get a hold of Maggie’s birth but I did get her marriage and some information about Patrick Green.
14th July 1905 at the RC Church Uddington, marriage of Maggie Rooney (18) and Patrick Docherty (28). Both of Newlands Row. Maggie dau of John and Ellen nee Conroy. Patrick son of James and Catherine nee Curran. Witnesses were William Keegan and Catherine Docherty.
Patrick Green born 15 Apr 1876 at 2.45AM at Pound Street, Baillieston. Parents Francis Green (miner) and Annie Dullen. Father Francis absent for birth.
I also managed to confirm my theory of Patrick’s father Francis having been killed in a mining accident.
Francis Green, miner, married to Ann Dillen. Dec 26 1905 at 2.15pm, Calderbank Colliery, aged 55. Parents Patrick and Catherine. Informant Patrick Green, son, of 15 Reids Row Baillieston. “While the deceased was walking into the cage at the pit a piece of coal accidentally fell down the shaft of the mine and struck him on the head.”
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Hi Mulberry Rose,
If you do go to the North Shields local studies one day look in the 1912/13 Workhouse Minutes volume and flicking through you will see Ellen Rooney of Morpeth listed in the outdoor relief columns.
Also just to let you know I believe your direct ancestors (my indirect) Joseph & Mary Conroy nee Allen/Allan were living in Dipton area at some point in between the 1871/1881 census.
There was a newspaper article about my Great Grandfather Simon Conroy in the Consett Guardian, Saturday 16 June 1877. This can be seen on British Newspapers Archives. Someone had attacked him and broken his skull. In the court case it mentions he had gone to his Uncle's house and a Mary Conroy, wife of 'Jos. Conroy' is a witness giving evidence. Thought it might be useful to know for tracking your ancestors 'paths'.
By the way, I have dna matches with some of Joseph & Mary's descendants although most are from my direct line James/Mary then James Conroy & Elizabeth Fitzpatrick.
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River Tyne Lass
Thank you for the details about the volumes, I don’t know when I’ll visit but hopefully soon :)
Wow, broke his skull! :o I wasn’t aware they lived in Durham, I’ve only been searching for articles in Northumberland, so now there’s plenty of new paths to be tracing.
There was a Morpeth Gazette article on the 16 Jan 1886, regarding an inquiry into the death of five week old Mary Conroy, daughter of Mary and Joseph. The verdict was that she died of natural causes. Their residence was listed as Bullers Green.
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Although I’ve not made much progress getting Maggie’s birth or baptism, I’ve managed to get a hold of her death certificate on the GRO index. When I tried it a few months ago I could only get the PDF version. Luckily the digital version was available for much cheaper ;).
She didn’t die straightaway after my ggmother’s birth like I thought; rather she died a few days after, 16 Mar 1914 at 5 Brick Row, Bedlington Bank Top.
Her cause of death was acute lomar pneumonia as well as heart failure. Ellen Rooney was present for death.
And I finally have a range for Patrick Docherty’s death. I got a hold of James Docherty’s death cert, he died 31 Jan 1917 from pneumonia, and Patrick his father is listed as deceased.
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Had you thought about looking at James Docherty’s birth certificate to see how the father is recorded?
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Neale
I did get James’ certificate, unfortunately there was nothing mentioned about Patrick’s status.
There was a death that matched name and age wise for him in Newcastle in 1908, but it wasn’t him.
Time for another look on ScotlandsPeople! There is a death I’ve spotted in 1910. If Patrick Docherty was in Scotland then the Rooney’s mightn’t have known about his death. (Explaining why Maggie isn’t widowed on the 1911 census)
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I’ve just found Margaret’s baptism! :D
By pure chance at that too.
I was on findmypast searching up all baptisms and births of Patrick Green’s siblings, and I was on the page of his sister Elizabeth, and just happened to see “John Rooney & Ellen Conroy” a bit further down. What are the chances?
Margaret born 9 May 1888, baptised 10 Jul 1888 at St Bridget, Baillieston. Witnesses Thomas & Mary Jane Fleming.
So the newspaper article announcing a daughter to Mr John Rooney in Widdrington Steads is her. I wonder if she wasn’t registered in England because they moved right after her birth.
I know from the 1911 census that Ellen and John had theee children who died at birth. One was born in Northumberland but I’m wondering if the other two possibly have baptisms in Scotland.
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That's good news. It is strange that the baptism is not showing on Scotlands People.
From where has FindMyPast sourced it?
Does an image of the original record show, or is it a transcript?
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Neale
FindMyPast lists the source as “Scotland Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms” from the Scottish Catholic Archives.
There is an original image of the record as well as a transcript. It is strange as I did manage to locate Patrick Green’s baptism, and his was archived from the same source (yet I couldn’t get his siblings ones). I wonder if Scotlands People stopped listing baptisms from that source after a certain year?
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Very odd - I don't know the answer?
According to their website, their records are available on Scotlands People
https://www.scottishcatholicarchives.org.uk/Home/Genealogy
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Having a look at ScotlandsPeople, it seems that not every church has been archived regarding RC baptisms.
Patrick was baptised in St Paul, Glasgow which does appear in the list of parishes but St Bridget, Baillieston doesn’t.
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Yes, I noticed the same thing. Maybe SP has some catch-up work to do ;)
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Perhaps ;D
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I’m a bit confused about where Margaret could be buried now.
FreeReg has a transcript from St Cuthberts with her burial as 19 Mar 1914. Although I’m not if this could be the Netherton cemetery or St Cuthberts itself? Does the St Cuthbert transcript fall under both cemeteries?
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Grave memorial
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/260723838/margaret-docherty_green
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Neale
I was the one who made that memorial for Margaret :). I put her burial at St Cuthbert’s since I thought her record being under that parish would mean she was in that cemetery. Now I’m not so sure.
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Managed to get a hold of Ellen Docherty’s baptism record. There’s a note on it about Patrick Docherty but I can’t read it.
“Husband in Scotland” “Husband in service”?
https://imgur.com/a/yJZItml
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I’m a bit confused about where Margaret could be buried now.
FreeReg has a transcript from St Cuthberts with her burial as 19 Mar 1914. Although I’m not if this could be the Netherton cemetery or St Cuthberts itself?
Microfilm of Bedlington Cemetery.
I guess this is Netherton Lane.
A sort of list, rather than the actual burial register, which, on the film, stops just short of Margaret's burial (I think!) :( And see previous image.
19th May 1914. Margaret Green. Number 930 in the register.
She is in C 508a :-\
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3VN-MBVW
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Oooh John, I was just typing out exactly the same thing ;D
It is Netherton Lane, I found a later military burial on the same register which is recorded at Netherton Lane.
As you say, the burial register is sadly uninformative for this era, and this has been commented on by other researchers on other threads relating to this cemetery.
The entry in the parish register simply denotes that the funeral took place at the church and the burial subsequently carried out at the cemetery by the clergyman from that church.
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Well done, Jen.
Frustrating about the images for the actual register cutting out when they did. But I didn't really expect to find a Northumberland film like that open on FS!
John
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Frustrating about the images for the actual register cutting out when they did. But I didn't really expect to find a Northumberland film like that open on FS!
Our late and sadly missed Northumberland researcher 'c-side' (Christine) commented on this record when she viewed it at Northumberland Archives in 2020 - reply #15 here https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=601745.msg4959613#msg4959613
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Managed to get a hold of Ellen Docherty’s baptism record. There’s a note on it about Patrick Docherty but I can’t read it.
“Husband in Scotland” “Husband in service”?
https://imgur.com/a/yJZItml
I believe it says “Husband in Scotland”
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Burial of Francis Green at Netherton Lane, 17 June 1912
Residence Bank Top
Age 15 min
Buried in section D
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3VN-M99S-4
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I’m a bit confused about where Margaret could be buried now.
FreeReg has a transcript from St Cuthberts with her burial as 19 Mar 1914. Although I’m not if this could be the Netherton cemetery or St Cuthberts itself?
Microfilm of Bedlington Cemetery.
I guess this is Netherton Lane.
A sort of list, rather than the actual burial register, which, on the film, stops just short of Margaret's burial (I think!) :( And see previous image.
19th May 1914. Margaret Green. Number 930 in the register.
She is in C 508a :-\
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3VN-MBVW
Thank you for locating her! I’d tried to look though the microfilm but didn’t know how. :)
I also found her other son, James Docherty, buried 3rd Feb 1917, D 812a. Also not a lot of info on his burial record.