RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: janiemae on Sunday 22 October 23 06:23 BST (UK)
-
I am looking for any information regarding the "Graham" family who lived in Obley NSW. My husband's great-great grandmother was born in Obely in 1800's. I cannot find a date of birth, just a place. I cannot find her birth certificate. I do however, have the birth certificate of her daughter ( Elizabeth) that lists the mother's name as - Elizabeth Betsy Graham, born in Obley. I have been given information that Elizabeth Betsy Graham's Father was named John and Mother Barbara. It is this line that I am interested in. The Obley "Graham" family.
Elizabeth Betsy Graham's line seems to be Aboriginal. Elizabeth Betsy Graham married a Joseph May in 1874 at Eulomogo.
Hopefully someone can wade through ramblings. I am not that good at putting all this ancestry into words. I get a little confused at times.
Any help would be gratefully appreciated.
Would appreciate any help with this matter.
-
Do you have the marriage cert. for Joseph May and ELizabeth? IF filled out correctly there might be some information that might help.
2277/1874 MAY JOSEPH -- GRAHAME ELIZABETH - DUBBO
Maybe it wont be real useful ???
Many pre-1896 marriages do not have complete information in the Registers. It was not compulsory to record Birthplace, Age or Parents of the parties to the marriage on civil records until 1896. Sometimes this information has been added later by the Registry after referring to the parish register.
https://nswtranscriptions.com.au/pages/about-nsw-marriage-certificates.php
-
Do you have a death for Elizabeth Betsy?
-
Hello janiemae and welcome to RootsChat.
What year was the birth of Elizabeth, whose mother was Elizabeth Betsy GRAHAM? Is there any other information on the certificate - who was present (the mother, or someone else) etc.
There was definitely a William GRAHAM around Obley in 1860, he is advertising his claim to some property in Wellington.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/63597121 (3rd column)
Will keep looking :D
-
"Elizabeth Betsy Graham's line seems to be Aboriginal."
What evidence do you have for this? Also Betsy is often a familiar name for Elizabeth
shume australia
-
If you use this link to search NSW Archives, type in Graham Obley.
https://mhnsw.au/collections/state-archives-collection/
There is a sketched map showing the land holdings of John and George Graham .
There is also a PDF of the application for probate in the death of a John Graham, grazier in 1892 and the full will is digitised. It favours his wife Sarah.
Perhaps this is part of the right family.
Sue
-
If this is the right family, this lengthy obituary for Sarh Graham may b of interest.
I am not quite sure of your time lines here ;D
For instance at what age did Elizabeth Betsy marry?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/77594785?searchTerm=%22sarah%20graham%20obley%22~12
Sue
-
I have been given information that Elizabeth Betsy Graham's Father was named John and Mother Barbara.
If it is this baptism that you are referring to then she is not the one you are after. I can see a number of family trees on Ancestry which incorrectly name John and Barbara as your Elizabeth's parents.
Elizabeth Shirreff GRAHAME
Baptism Date 25 Sep. 1848
Baptism Place Sydney, Cumberland, New South Wales, Australia
Father: John GRAHAME
Mother: Barbara SHIRREFF
FHL Film Number 993972
This person married Edward HUNT at Maitland in 1874 and died in Queensland in 1922.
Debra :)
-
Registration Number 06459
Date of Death 22 JUN 1887
Place of Death MURRUMBIDGERIE
Name ELIZABETH MAY
Occupation MARRIED WOMAN
Sex FEMALE
Age 38
Cause of Death CHILD BIRTH, HAEMORRHAGE
Duration 5 DAYS
Medical Attendant DR WARREN, ONE HOUR AFTER DEATH
Father - GRAHAM
Father's Occupation LABOURER
Mother - Maiden Name NOT KNOWN
Informant JOSEPH MAY, HUSBAND, MURRUMBIDGERIE; REGISTERED 30 JUN
1887, DUBBO
When Buried 24 JUN 1887
Where DUBBO CEMETERY
Undertaker WM. THOS. LEWIS
Minister REVD. CANON WILSON
Religion CHURCH OF ENGLAND
Witnesses JOSEPH MAY, JOHN MAY
Where born OBLEY, N.S. WALES
Time in Colony/State NATIVE
Place Married EULOMOGO
Age at Marriage 25
Spouse JOSEPH MAY
Children of Marriage JANE MAY 3, INFANT 5 DAYS OLD.
This is the death certificate transcription for Elizabeth May, daughter of Elizabeth Graham/e. I cannot seem to find anything from all this information. I will try to post the birth certificate, but haven't had any luck posting it. Copy and paste doesn't seem to work, or file is in the wrong format. I will keep trying though. I will also try to post a copy of the marriage certificate when Elizabeth May married Samuel William Sampson.
I really appreciate all the help that has been given to me thus far.
-
Yes, that's correct "Dundee", that is incorrect information on those trees associated with Elizabeth May. I may have become confused and thought that her mother was named Barbara. Thanks for your help, really appreciate it.
-
Following up on the Graham family which I have mentioned above,, John, his wife Sarah (nee Ingram ) and their many children, it appears that John did not go to the Obley area until 1866.
The story seems to be that they were married in 1857 and began married life in Wellington, taking up land in the mid 1860's in the Obley region and naming the tract Dilladerry.
This means that John is unilkely to be Elizabeth Betsy's father if she was born in 1849 at Obley.
Sue
-
Thank you Sue for your mighty effort, I appreciate the input. I have been in and out of many a rabbit hole trying to find the answer to this . It just might be one that has no achievable answer.
Apparently when Elizabeth Betsy died after giving birth to Elizabeth May on 22nd June 1887, the baby was looked after by a Mary Hilyard who was present at her birth and apparently I'm told was a guardian to young Elizabeth and gave her consent for her marriage to Samuel Sampson. Mary is part of the Astil family I am told.
-
For interest, this looks like Mary HILYARD, died 1928 aged 91 - nice obituary.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/132340940
-
Thanks Maddys, a very nice read indeed. I had a moment when I read "Springs Station", but the name Baird was associated with it. I greatly appreciate your interest. xx
-
Not sure if you are interested in the Springs Station. It seems to have been in the family of Arthur Campbell BAIRD, this notice gives details of his family. Wife Isabella and sons Thomas and David.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/221701944
There are a few items about son David's discovery of some burnt human remains in 1859. They are named as "BEARD", but most references including NSW BDM records them as BAIRD.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/63596416
-
Thanks Maddys52. Interesting read whilst being somewhat gruesome about the human remains. I think this line, will not give me any answers, but interesting anyway.
I will have to just concentrate on the Graham surname and Elizabeth Betsy I think.
-
Hi
A while back in this thread, you mentioned an indigenous connection, but did not further explain this.
Are you able to expand on that thinking?
Sue
-
An Indigenous line comes from Elizabeth Graham's daughter, Elizabeth May.
Elizabeth May married a Samuel William Sampson ( this is my husband's direct line) and then later married a Michael Edward Kelly ( also my husband's direct line).
There are a few gatherings of the May mob every year in Wellington I am told by a maternal Sampson cousin of my husband, who had been told from virtually birth that she is Aboriginal.
As both the May, Sampson and Kelly males are all British and Irish descendants, I assume that the Aboriginal line has to have come from a higher female in the line, i.e. Elizabeth Betsy Graham.
That's my thinking and I'm happy to be corrected.
So, positive proof is DNA in the descendants of the Sampson family of which my husband is one.
I have also read a document that stated that Michael Kelly was associated with a "half-caste" woman.
Not to cause offense , a photo of Elizabeth May and her children that was passed onto me, have the appearance of being Aboriginal.
Hope that helps.
-
You have possibly already seen this interesting item from 1929 - Elizabeth's son Samuel William SAMPSON in trouble for forging a cheque. Mentions his parents divorced when he was 7 (c1914) and Michael Edward KELLY is his step father.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/113463951
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/218371539
Previous charge in 1926
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/145252773
and a description:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/252056862
Another charge in 1929. Mentions that Frederick (maybe Edward - mentioned in the first article above) George OWERS lived in the same house as Samuel's mother (Elizabeth) in Foster St, Parkes.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/113460953
Another:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/113462994
Conviction overturned:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/113463841
Another case of forgery in 1930:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/132088397
There are more articles about all these events if you search trove. I'm not sure whether it would have been reported in those days, but none of them mention him being of Aboriginal descent, or half caste. :-\
-
Again, you might have already seen these - Various items about the divorce in 1918:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/143227859
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15783185
-
Thank you Maddys52. I had read a few of the articles on Trove, but not all of the ones you had found. You certainly know how to search on Trove, whilst I can only get a smattering of results.
Yes, Samuel Sampson Jnr was a bit of a naughty boy indeed, always in trouble.
That family, after the divorce was a very dysfunctional family. I had been told by Cyril Sampson's granddaughter that the children had been put in care at one stage. Cyril certainly had been in care until the age of I think 14, then he went back home to Dubbo looking for his father, but found his mother and Michael Kelly and his older brother and trouble.
-
You can find details of the children on the Dependent Childrens Register at the NSW Archives
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au
eg Samuel SAMPSON
https://content.archives.nsw.gov.au/delivery/StreamGate?dps_pid=FL3069960&dps_dvs=1698376417852~639
Louisa SAMPSON
https://content.archives.nsw.gov.au/delivery/StreamGate?dps_pid=FL3069869&dps_dvs=1698376653943~963
Cyril SAMPSON
https://content.archives.nsw.gov.au/delivery/StreamGate?dps_pid=FL3070642&dps_dvs=1698377115407~418
Ethel SAMPSON
https://content.archives.nsw.gov.au/delivery/StreamGate?dps_pid=FL3070251&dps_dvs=1698377181325~759
Various other records for the family also at the Archives, including some photos of Samuel William SAMPSON
-
Thanks for that Maddys52. I must be doing something wrong, as the link doesn't work for me!!
When I search Dependent children registers, I get a view only at the reading rooms.
Is that the information that you have passed onto me, or am I really dumb and just unable to see it.
-
Sorry, think I had a very "blonde" moment. Have found the sites manually.
Thanks very much.
-
Sorry about that. I don't know why the links to the actual images didn't work. But glad you found them through the search page. :D
-
It was a very interesting read, some children were together and others not, but moved around a bit.
I felt so sorry for the Sampson children, what a life they must have had!
A daughter of one of the May/Kelly offspring said that that she remembered her mother (Elizabeth) being very loving and caring! That daughter of Elizabeth and Michael Kelly was also put into care when Elizabeth died in 1933, but the records do not include those years.
I had seen the photo of naughty boy Samuel before.
Thanks so very much for all this wonderful information, really appreciate your effort.
-
Hi janiemae
In your efforts to learn more about Elizabeth Betsy Graham, had you fully explored the early life of Jane May, the sister of the infant Elizabeth May.
Apparently born about 1884, though I do not see a registration on the index, do you?
She married very young (Reg 1164/1900 )and sadly died at 21 years (Reg 4839/1905 ). Buried Dubbo
Who took care of her in her early years after her mother's death?
Also was there a brother to these 2 girls, named Samuel May?
It's just that there is a match of parental names, dates and co-incidence of some places for this person born 1876 at Wellington.
I think you are going to need as many life event certificates as possible relating to Elizabeth Betsy and her offspring if you are to get any further clues.
Expensive, but as she is a direct line ancestor, may be worth the pennies.
Sue
-
Hi Sue,
No, I hadn't thought about siblings. I think I have tunnel vision and only "go after" that particular person.
That is certainly an avenue I should be looking into. I believe that there is an older sister, Selina May, who married a Chinese. Samuel May I believe is the paternal grandfather. I didn't think she had any brothers, but that father remarried.
I know that after the death of Elizabeth Betsy Graham, I believe a family member became Elizabeth's guardian and also gave permission for her to marry Samuel William Sampson.
Thanks for the lead about siblings. That is now a rabbit hole that I shall enter.
-
I think that I am becoming extremely confused. This is really "messing with my brain". On Elizabeth May's birth certificate it shows that there is only one other "girl" living when the mother Elizabeth Graham gave birth. Also shows one boy dead. 2 girls dead.
On ancestry there are numerous trees that show a "Selina May 1874-1967" as being Elizabeth's sister. Am I "barking up the wrong tree",or is the birth certificate incorrect??
I still cannot upload this birth certificate to any post, if someone could perhaps give me a hand with this, I cannot even do a copy and paste. Confusion reigns for me at the moment.
Would appreciate any help with this confusion.
-
The person Samuel MAY whom I mentioned in a post above, is not listed as a child of the couple on the DC. Of Elizabeth Betsy
He was born in Wellington in 1876 (22176/1876 )with parents Joseph and Elizabeth.
Married Hannah Mary Ellen in Cantrill in Wellington 1899.
Voted in Eulomoglo in 1913. A labourer.
He died in 1958 in Sydney.
I do not know if he is related or not.
Be alert to the wording on Death Certificates in NSW.
The column may be headed issue ( meaning of the current union.)
Sue
-
From the NSW BDM, these are the births to Joseph and Elizabeth MAY, however as Sue has pointed out, there are some things that don't tally with the death certificate you have.
1874 Selina (Orange 16674/1874)
1876 Samuel (Wellington 22176/1876 ) - mother: "Elizabeth R"
1880 un-named male (Wellington 26736/1880 ) - died 1880 Wellington (10793/1880 )
1887 Elizabeth (Dubbo 16100/1887)
I can't see a likely birth for "Jane MAY aged 3" who appears on her mother's death certificate. There is a large gap between the un-named male and Elizabeth and a large gap between the marriage in 1874 and Elizabeth's birth in 1887, so there could be more births not recorded? Maybe there were stillborn, or miscarriages?
-
I think there are a few families with the names, Joseph and Elizabeth May around the Dubbo and Wellington areas. They may be related in some way or not, but I can't find a link between Elizabeth Betsy Graham.
If only one could find a link with the husband of Elizabeth Betsy or even the mother of Elizabeth Betsy that would be a win.
I appreciate everyone's efforts in this "brain scrambling" saga.
-
Because Elizabeth and Jane are clearly acknowledged as siblings, per the DC, in the right family, parents clearly the same couple, I would be reearching Jane to see what records show about her parents.
As I said she married at an early age and died young.
1164/1900
MACDONALD Alexander
MAY Jane
DUBBO
Death
MCDONALD Jane
4839/1905
Parents Joseph and Elizabeth
DUBBO
There were children.
Sue
-
Thanks Sue, I will definitely look into Jane. I got distracted and overthought.
Appreciate your help.
-
Hopefully here is the birth certificate for Elizabeth MAY 1887.
-
And the marriage certificate of Elizabeth MAY and Samuel SAMPSON 1905.
-
Hi.
Good to see the certificates.
I note Elizabeth was born at Murrumbidgerie.
This was a vast landholding esablished by the 1850's in the shire of Lincoln NSW.
In the 1880's a village was establshed in a section of it. It seems to be about 10 kms from Dubbo proper.
There was a name change for the village and it is now known as Wongarbon.
Running north of Wongarbon is Boundary Creek.
In 1891, Joseph MAY is recorded on the NSW census as living at Boundary Creek in a household consisting of one male and three females.
Nearby Barbigal is the place where one Joseph May died suddenly aged 60 in 1897.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/62038624?searchTerm=%22joseph%20may%2060%20%22~12
This age of 60 is a few years out according to the BC of Elizabeth 1887and his age on arrival in Australia with Samuel and Jane May and siblings in 1854 which is 12 years.
Sue
-
Here is the probable deceased male listed on the BC of Elizabeth.
MAY Male
10793/1880
Parents Joseph & Elizabeth
At WELLINGTON
Sue
-
Wow Sue, You sure are a "Sherlock". I had read an article on the death of Joseph May, just can't put my hands to it at the moment.....it was a coroners report or something like that. My understanding was that either his heart or lungs were full of hydatids and that was the cause of death.
I think you are on the right track with this Joseph May.
I have ordered the marriage certificate for Jane May, so it's a wait and see. Fingers crossed there might be a hidden gem to be found.
Appreciate your continuing help with this intriguing tree.
-
The inquest into Joseph's death is reported here:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/193368688 (1st column, middle)
Here is the probable deceased male listed on the BC of Elizabeth.
MAY Male
10793/1880
Parents Joseph & Elizabeth
At WELLINGTON
Sue
I listed this birth and death in reply #30 ;)
-
Yes, that's the article Maddy. Sometimes Trove works for me and sometimes not ( I think it's the user :D)
Do you think I should order the birth or is it a death certificate of the male child?
Will it hold more or less information than what I could get from the marriage certificate of Jane May?
Thank you for help in this matter Maddy, appreciate your concern.
-
If you had the $$ it would be interesting to order a transcription of the birth certificate - 1880 un-named male (Wellington 26736/1880 ). As you can see from Elizabeth's birth certificate, it should show parents' names (and mother's maiden name) and birthplaces, as well as previous children. The death certificate would probable not show as much useful information - though it should have parents' names.
It would be interesting to compare with Elizabeth's birth certificate. But I realise it gets quite expensive. :D
-
There are two different index numbers for the un-named male May 1880?? Which one is the one that I order. 26736/1880 or 10793/1880??
-
26736/1880 is the birth certicate
10793/1880 is the death certificate
If it were me, I'd order the birth certificate. A transcription is fine (and cheaper).
:D
-
Thanks Maddy for clearing my brain. Ordering away :)
-
I listed this birth and death in reply #30 ;)
Ahh.. ;)I do find double ups tend to happen all over the pace as a thread grows longer.
janiemae, just so you can put Selina May (whom you wondered about as a daughter of your Joseph and Elizabeth) on the not relevant list....
Attached her marriagecertificate showing her mother's details and also the death of her mother.
She married that Joseph May in South Australia in 1860.
-
Thanks Sue,
So this is the Elizabeth R May that I found on a few registered births on BDM.
I think I know where you got that from as well.....he sent me that and other information about her first marriage that was to a Chinese. I hadn't read it all properly yet. So information on his "tree" is not at all accurate for my "tree". No wonder I get so confused!!!
I will now firmly put Selina May in the drawer.
Thanks ever so much for this enlightening information.
-
Yes. There has been an effort to morph Elizabeth Roach GRUNDY into the same identity as Elizabeth GRAHAM and to thereafter attribute the children.
Erroneous ::)
Sue
-
Found the Marriage certificate between Elizabeth Graham and Joseph May.
Unfortunately no helpful information at all !!
-
I agree. Not much help.
Looks like Elizabeth Betsy was illiterate.
Joseph was a fencer.
A probable relative possibly father Samuel or maybe brother Samuel witnessed.
Eustace Peter Nolan the other witness was born in 1851 in Whittingham NSW. An associate of the couple perhaps.
Ulomogo Creek runs near Dubbo.
Sue
-
You really should try to see the church register for the marriage of Elizabeth and Joseph in 1874.
Colin GREIG was the Presbyterian minister in Dubbo so the marriage should be in the Dubbo registers.
You can order a copy through the NLA for $19.
https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/catalog/5964318
Just click on 'order a copy' and in the form I would just put - number of pages 1, and then go down to 'other information' and fill in date and place of marriage and the names of the bride and groom.
The Presbyterians were really good record keepers so hopefully all the blank spaces will be filled in.
Debra :)
-
Thank you for that. I certainly would not have know where to start with that. Wonderful knowledge to pass onto me.
-
Bad news!! The Presbyterian's apparently didn't keep any further documentation for the marriage of Elizabeth Graham. They were unable to find any information. Although they did suggest asking the Librarian services for alternative material. Which I will certainly look into.
On the other hand, the marriage certificate for Jane May arrived (hopefully if will be enclosed) Also she married at 16 and unfortunately only lived a few more years.
Not a great deal of usable information, but interesting to note the Guardian's name, which might be fruitful. Also interesting that it's not the same Guardian as Elizabeth May.
-
Possible obituary for Susan CLEMENTS, died 1945 aged 81, resident of Wellington and Dubbo.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/144818706
A George CLEMENTS married Susan GLOVER in Dubbo in 1884.
-
GLOVER was likely the birth name of Susan.
It looks as if she gave birth to Mervyn outside her marriage to George CLEMENT.
Perhaps she was a widow
GLOVER Mervyn
Dubbo
1904
Mother Susan
Sue
-
Thanks for that information. I still cannot find a link between the "Graham/e" family and the guardian Susan Clements. The guardian for Elizabeth May was apparently a family member, something to do with the Astil family.
There may be no link at all, but still there is always a chance!!
Both parents were deceased when she married, so maybe an appointed guardian.
Appreciate all the help that has been given.
-
Well this is certainly a "solid" brick wall that I have hit!!
Received emails back from the Librarian services of the Presbyterian Church archives, who very nicely told me that they did not hold the marriage records for Eulomogo Presbyterian Church. He directed me the Anglican Archives in Parramatta, who he said would hold the records for that period.
Today received a warm email back from the Anglican Archives in Parramatta, saying that the earliest marriage record for the Presbyterian church in Dubbo area is 1877. Elizabeth Graham was married in 1874!! They also kindly said that "We do not have any references that suggest an earlier Marriage Register for Dubbo Presbyterian Church area is held by another agency."
It was so easy to ask these services for help and they were more than willing to suggest an alternate source if needed.
So, it's back to square one for me!!
-
I glimmer of hope!!!
Have found that Susan Glover, the witness to Jane May's marriage was born in 1864 in Obley Siding... So there has to be a connection to the Graham family...
I'm still plodding along. Awaiting Susan Glover's marriage certificate.
Fingers crossed.
-
Received the marriage certificate transcript for Susan Glover and George Clements.
The only connection to Elizabeth Betsy Graham is that all were born in Obley.
Has anyone any ideas as to which direction I should now take, or is this the final "brick wall" and I will never know who the parents of Elizabeth Betsy Graham were!!! :(
I appreciate all the help that I have received.