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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: double-trouble on Saturday 18 November 23 16:50 GMT (UK)
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I've continued to look for information regarding the Cooper Company ( beer trade ) in the 1860's .
John William Melville ( alias Bevil ) who has had his fair amount of threads on Rootschat , is known to have been the manager along with 2 sons ( John and William ) working at this company as clerks ( 1871 census of Union Rd , Walthamstow ) . Martyn Cornell's site Zythophile , gives info . on the Cooper Company at the Circular Vaults at St . Pauls Churchyard in 1866 prior to moving across the Thames to the Hop Exchange in Southwark Street .
I can find information on the churchyard at St Pauls being used for music , the sale of musical instruments and the sale of books but nothing on the vaults and their usage for storage and brewing of alcohol .
Is there any information known as to this practice in the 1860's at St . Paul's ? If so was it to generally sell space for church funds ? Were there other business ventures within the vaults ?
Additional info . on the company - Islington Times 05 Mar 1872 , Woodford Times 19 Aug 1876 & South London Chronicle 12 Aug 1876 .
On a similar thread , are there known lists of those companies at the Hop Exchange in Southwark ?
Zythophile suggests it had moved to there by 1875 ( Head Office Cellars in Southwark St and Export Coopers Cellars in nearby Guildford Street ) .
I've looked at various websites of the area which give an amount of info . and pictures of the Hop Exchange , but no detail as to occupants .
Appreciate any help , thoughts and further details or advice .. .thankyou
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I checked the 1875 P.O. London Directory. At 22 Southwark Street is listed The Exchange. Perhaps it is what you referred to as the Hop Exchange. It was divided into a number of units. Some are named and include such as hop merchants, but I didn't find the names you mentioned. Post again if you want anything specific checked.
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Puzzled whether beer was brewed at Circular Vaults or bottled only.
If you have access to newspapers on line (BNA or FindMyPast) have a look at the Morning Post, 21 Nov 1862, column 2 "Bottled Cooper". I thinked this is picked up in Zythophile's piece.
A fascinating post.
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I checked the 1875 P.O. London Directory. At 22 Southwark Street is listed The Exchange. Perhaps it is what you referred to as the Hop Exchange. It was divided into a number of units. Some are named and include such as hop merchants, but I didn't find the names you mentioned. Post again if you want anything specific checked.
Hi Watson..thanks for that info . as it all adds up to the bigger picture at some stage . The named units are still in situ today I believe as the building has been renovated and looks very grand online .
Is it to much trouble to post the names ( numbers ) etc..you mention of 1875 of the smaller units as at some stage I will possibly be able to whittle it down to the one the Cooper Company used . There must be info . somewhere.. Thankyou again .
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Puzzled whether beer was brewed at Circular Vaults or bottled only.
If you have access to newspapers on line (BNA or FindMyPast) have a look at the Morning Post, 21 Nov 1862, column 2 "Bottled Cooper". I thinked this is picked up in Zythophile's piece.
A fascinating post.
Hi hanes teula..you've helped me before on other topics and again thankyou for the info . however insignificant it may be now it may help in the future . The bottled Cooper mentioned on the various articles I've seen seem to suggest the name may have been used widely within the industry by different companies , with The Cooper Company possibly claiming some type of originality of it .
I've been looking through lots of sites today trying to find any info . on the cellars / vaults at St . Pauls but still no joy..very strange and can only believe that space at the church was utilised for rent to pay for a particular project there . Were there other small companies renting space ?? similar to the railway arches / old stables at bigger stations today . Thankyou
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The earliest reference I have found to date - West London Times, 22 Nov 1862
It was this that made me wonder if the activity at St Paul's was bottling only?
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Following Johnson's appointment as agent this advert appeared extensively in the newspapers in Nov/Dec 1862
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Salisbury Weekly Reporter 25 Oct 1852
Doesn't mention "Circular Vaults", only "45, St Paul's Churchyard" - but involves other than beer.
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It seems that J.W.Melvilles Cooper Company may have used the coat tails of Henry Johnson by insisting that the company were the ' originators and the only bottlers of bottled Cooper ' ref . Zylophile site . Information gathered a few years ago suggests the company went into liquidation or the like in the mid 1870's and possibly attributed directly through this practice ..although by then the company had moved to Southwark and The Hop Exchange ( 1875 ) . At this time the site says ' it was still claiming to be the originators and introducers to the trade of botttled Coopers and Family Ale ' .
Thankyou for the adverts posted which again mention the Circular Vaults at St . Paul's Churchyard .
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London Evening Standard, 2 Nov 1865
Another example of non alcoholic activity
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This 1851 map shows the extent of St Paul's Churchyard
https://maps.nls.uk/view/229949411#zoom=7&lat=7439&lon=13715&layers=BT
1893 map
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101201592#zoom=5&lat=6501&lon=7990&layers=BT
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This 1851 map shows the extent of St Paul's Churchyard
https://maps.nls.uk/view/229949411#zoom=7&lat=7439&lon=13715&layers=BT
1893 map
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101201592#zoom=5&lat=6501&lon=7990&layers=BT
As strange as it may seem ( although commercial gain is as paramount as such today ) , I do wonder if the St . Pauls crypt could be the vaults . It seem s today that the area can be hired out for events amongst the final resting place for Nelson , Wren and other prominent persons .
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Possibly movement of the trades / companies using the vaults c. mid to late 1870's was due to the renovations of the churchyard . British History site shows that ' between 1878 - 1882 as part of the general renovations to the churchyard by Henry Clutton , alterations were made to the churchyard ' .
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This 1841 Directory shows the business activity going on in St Paul's Churchyard. Unfortunately yet to find a Directory for the period (1860/70) interested in.
https://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/digital/collection/p16445coll4/id/26655/rec/3
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This 1841 Directory shows the business activity going on in St Paul's Churchyard. Unfortunately yet to find a Directory for the period (1860/70) interested in.
https://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/digital/collection/p16445coll4/id/26655/rec/3
Not sure if that surprises me or not that there are so many businesses and trades at / around the actual churchyard . In trying to weigh it up , the planning laws today were not around then with housing possibly still mainly of lower quality but then when you look at some of the shops and frontages leading up to St . Pauls from Fleet St , it makes you question law today when some of these spoil the vista of one of this countries iconic buildings . In looking through info . of the immediate area throughout today , I'm amazed how many churches surrounded St . Paul's through to St . Clement Danes .
Again as said previously , I wonder if there was businesses attached to the church ( or within part of the vaults ( possibly with access from the churchyard ) ?? In real terms , 150 years ago is not that long when looking for family and social history . With a greater emphasis on recording detail in books , historical pieces and even with census returns , I believe the info . is out there..pos in the local record centre . Thankyou for your continued efforts Hanes Teula .
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Unfortunately there's a lack of London Directories on line twixt 1851 and 1882. I can see the Cooper Co. at Southwark in 1882 but nothing prior to that.
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Unfortunately there's a lack of London Directories on line twixt 1851 and 1882. I can see the Cooper Co. at Southwark in 1882 but nothing prior to that.
:'( thankyou anyway
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Henry Johnson, agent appointed 1862 did not last long - see col 1 bottom
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/22736/page/2620
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Henry Johnson, agent appointed 1862 did not last long - see col 1 bottom
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/22736/page/2620
This is where and when possible John William Melville then 'stepped in' claiming that the Bottled Cooper in name , was his idea or concept . It does seem that he was involved in many dubious practices under the surname of Melville / Bevil through my research with many articles within papers of liquidations and bankruptcies in various places ( not just England ) and on many occasions .
There is also a bigamist marriage and further ' sham ' marriage as has been documented on the many Rootschat posts that was to bear at least 15 children known .
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Here is the gen from 22 Southwark Street in 1875. The list below only includes businesses which are connected with the hop or wine trade:
22 The Exchange
Hop & Malt Exchange & Warehouse Company Limited
1 Wakeley Brothers, merchants
2 & 3 Trier, Mayer & Co., hop factors
Smith, Criddle & Co., wine merchants
Munson R.C. & Co., merchants
8 Hewitt & Co., hop merchants
9 Frank Julius, hop merchant
11 Smeed George, hop merchant
12 to 18 Mountain Stanford Henry, hop factor
27 Aylward, Blake & Chase, hop merchants
34 Bushell John, hop merchant
35 & 36 Liebmann R. & Co., hop factors
38 Cox George & Co., hop merchants
41 Bushell Robert H., hop merchant
78 De Lescluze Louis, belgian hop merchant
86 Holden Brothers, merchants
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Here is the gen from 22 Southwark Street in 1875. The list below only includes businesses which are connected with the hop or wine trade:
22 The Exchange
Hop & Malt Exchange & Warehouse Company Limited
1 Wakeley Brothers, merchants
2 & 3 Trier, Mayer & Co., hop factors
Smith, Criddle & Co., wine merchants
Munson R.C. & Co., merchants
8 Hewitt & Co., hop merchants
9 Frank Julius, hop merchant
11 Smeed George, hop merchant
12 to 18 Mountain Stanford Henry, hop factor
27 Aylward, Blake & Chase, hop merchants
34 Bushell John, hop merchant
35 & 36 Liebmann R. & Co., hop factors
38 Cox George & Co., hop merchants
41 Bushell Robert H., hop merchant
78 De Lescluze Louis, belgian hop merchant
86 Holden Brothers, merchants
Thanks very much for that Watson..appreciate your time . As you can see I'm trying to build up a bigger picture in the hope a snippet of info . leads to a more precise detail . Cheers
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Henry Johnson, agent appointed 1862 did not last long - see col 1 bottom
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/22736/page/2620
This is where and when possible John William Melville then 'stepped in' claiming that the Bottled Cooper in name , was his idea or concept . It does seem that he was involved in many dubious practices under the surname of Melville / Bevil through my research with many articles within papers of liquidations and bankruptcies in various places ( not just England ) and on many occasions .
There is also a bigamist marriage and further ' sham ' marriage as has been documented on the many Rootschat posts that was to bear at least 15 children known .
The name in the frame against "Circular Vaults" after Henry Johnson is "Hazard" -
London Evening Standard, 1 Sep 1863
Will check when he faded from the scene
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J Hazard disappears from the bottled trade at Circular Vaults in April 1864 and is replaced by the "Cooper Company" - earliest sighting
London Evening Standard, 20 May 1864
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My first sighting of John Melville - appearing in relation to a bankruptcy/court case which also mentions Johnson
Morning Advertiser, 29 Jan 1866
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The Cooper Company quits the Circular Vaults -
Norwood News, 17 Jan 1872
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In the 1875 directory, it seems I should have been looking at 24A Southwark Street! This was home to several businesses including:
Cooper Co., beer bottlers (Vaults)
Post again if you want the other businesses at 24A.
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In the 1875 directory, it seems I should have been looking at 24A Southwark Street! This was home to several businesses including:
Cooper Co., beer bottlers (Vaults)
Post again if you want the other businesses at 24A.
Yes please Watson..appreciated
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(1875 directory)
(Southwark Street)
24A Mountain Stanford Henry, hop merchant
Phelp Wm. Aubrey, hop merchant
Cooper Co., beer bottlers (Vaults)
Hop & Malt Exchange Warehouses, J. Sadler Wood, man.
Constable James & Co., wine & spirit merchants
Grangère Chaperon, Libourne & Bourdeaux
Matignon Alexandre & Co. Cognac
Déroure & Co. Glos-du Foulhoux, James Constable & Co. agents
Fielding Thomas, dining rooms
Stone & Humphreys, builders, Railway arches
... Here the Railway crosses ...
26, 28 & 30 etc.
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(1875 directory)
(Southwark Street)
24A Mountain Stanford Henry, hop merchant
Phelp Wm. Aubrey, hop merchant
Cooper Co., beer bottlers (Vaults)
Hop & Malt Exchange Warehouses, J. Sadler Wood, man.
Constable James & Co., wine & spirit merchants
Grangère Chaperon, Libourne & Bourdeaux
Matignon Alexandre & Co. Cognac
Déroure & Co. Glos-du Foulhoux, James Constable & Co. agents
Fielding Thomas, dining rooms
Stone & Humphreys, builders, Railway arches
... Here the Railway crosses ...
26, 28 & 30 etc.
added these names to those you sent earlier..great..thankyou