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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: DaveMcC on Friday 08 December 23 23:07 GMT (UK)
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I joined Ancestry in 2021. I currently have 916 4th cousin or closer matches. I was wanting to know how I could use my DNA matches to find my paternal grandfathers family as he is my biggest brick wall.
My paternal grandfather, John Daniel McKnight was Illegitimate and born in Creevycarnoonan, Kilmore, County Down, Ireland and he took his mothers surname. See this thread I made asking about him for info on what I have found out: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=851721.msg7221404#msg7221404
My dad and his siblings refused to take DNA tests so I can't directly connect many of my paternal matches to them.
My mum and some of her cousins did take DNA tests on Ancestry so I know who matches to them.
I have one 2nd-3rd cousin match who could be related to my grandfather but we don't know how we are related, although it says Paternal.
Most of my 2nd-3rd to 4th-6th cousin matches are either on my mums side and I know the direct connection or at least which side of the family the connection is on, or mostly on my paternal grandmothers side and I know the connection.
I do have some 4th-6th DNA matches which say Paternal and have the common surname McMullen or McMullan and my 2nd-3rd cousin match, shared matches with some of them.
Any of them who have trees, some live in USA or Canada and say their ancestor McMullen/McMullan ancestors that came from Ireland were born in the 1700s or early 1800s but don't have the exact location, either County Down or Ireland so that doesn't help pin anything down.
Also, any of my matches who are McKnight/McNeight/McNight or have those names on their tree are mostly 5th-8th cousins, no 4th-6th cousins.
Is there anything I can do with my DNA matches to help my research and find out more about my Grandfathers family as I have checked most documents like Birth, Marriage, Death, Newspapers, Griffiths Valuation records and more and not got very far.
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Hi Dave,
Can I suggest Gedmatch...Its Free and password protected ..one-to-many around 3000 matches you will get...One -to-one will allow you to compare and one area will allow you to put your kit and their kit numbers it will give you that you both match.
having the Haplogroup = tribe..might also be handy...the thinking is that many nations immigrated overseas and English-ised their names and some just wrote it as it sounded
maybe Ireland Genealogy projects with Christina Finn Hunt...lots of links to search different counties in Ireland
Cheers Rick in Australia
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Have you uploaded your DNA to any other sites? You may find useful matches at FamilyTreeDNA and MyHeritage.
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Immediate thought, your Dad and his Siblings are hiding their knowledge of family events!
Alas Irish records are very sporadic, I am 25% Irish and have had great difficulty building my tree and I have been doing so for 15 years.
I would work through your highest cM matches, ignoring any on the Maternal side of your family.
Look at the shared matches, build trees of them and build them into the trees of others. This would be better happening in software where it is easy to combine trees when a MRCA between matches is found.
You could also take a y-DNA test with FTDNA and that will give you your Male to Male lineage. I did just that when my First Cousins all failed to take a DNA test, and found the person I thought was a direct ancestor to be correct.
DNA can be a waiting game so do be patient.
Meanwhile take time to learn about DNA, its inheritance and relationships ie First Cousins share in your case the same Grandfather and you and them are likely to share around 750cM with each other. If a Grandfather is unknown and if he then went on to have further children by a different woman then their Grandchildren would be of the same generation as you. They would be a 1/2 First Cousin and share about 400cM, do note cM for a relationship does cover quite a range.
As others have said uploading DNA to Gedmatch, myFTDNA, My Heritage may yield further results. These will only be useful with DNA knowledge so do study.
A 275cM match to me led to finding one of my Great Great Grandfather’s who was Italian, the match had a tree of him and his Dad and failed to respond to Messages. A 364cM match led to my yDNA test and that shows my Irish Great Great Grandfather to be who I thought him to be. So do not give up it can be as I have said a waiting game.
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Someone did mention this briefly above - the next very important step would be to take a Y-DNA test with FTDNA. I'm assuming you are male, Dave :-)
A small piece of DNA (completely separate from the DNA examined in your Ancestry test) is passed down from father to son, therefore normally following the paternal surname line. The idea is that you will match several men with the same surname, possibly indicating the surname of your great-grandfather. This is the theory, but it doesn't always work like that - as you can well understand, as you yourself did not take his name.
The cheapest Y-37 test would be perfectly adequate for this, to start with (if you upgrade later you just pay the difference).
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DaveMcC - have you explicitly stated on your Ancestry profile that you are trying to find your paternal grandfather? Your matches will often be able to tell which line you belong to through their shared matches with you more easily than you can. I have seen several examples of that. If you explicitly state what you want to know on your profile it makes it more likely that the key match sends you a message. Perhaps worth a shot.
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Someone did mention this briefly above - the next very important step would be to take a Y-DNA test with FTDNA. I'm assuming you are male, Dave :-)
A small piece of DNA (completely separate from the DNA examined in your Ancestry test) is passed down from father to son, therefore normally following the paternal surname line. The idea is that you will match several men with the same surname, possibly indicating the surname of your great-grandfather. This is the theory, but it doesn't always work like that - as you can well understand, as you yourself did not take his name.
The cheapest Y-37 test would be perfectly adequate for this, to start with (if you upgrade later you just pay the difference).
For one branch of my tree Y-DNA would have been misleading. We did find four men with the same surname - two in England, one in Canada and one in Australia, but it's a different surname to the name our family has been using. We realise now that the family name changed about 6 generations ago, and we were using two surnames interchangeably for a couple of generations before that.
Nevertheless, Y-DNA testing seems quite popular in men in North America whose patrilineal line is from Ireland (because it's often very difficult to find records that make the jump across the Atlantic) and the matches are usually very enthusiastic. We've also managed to find a missing grandfather and initially the closest matches on the unknown side were in North America and Ireland. A bit of a breakthrough started when we were matching 2nd cousins with a mutual grandfather William born in 1820 in Ireland. And we were all matching a woman with this surname whose ancestors arrived in Canada in the 1830s. Still couldn't find how they connected to the mystery grandfather down in our part of the world though. It was three years until the crucial match appeared - descended from the mystery grandfather's sister and we realised the grandfather's mother was a niece of William and had emigrated halfway around the world in the 1870s.
FamilyTreeDNA is rolling out Y-haplogroups for the Family Finder test - have you uploaded or tested there?
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Sorry - the two second cousins had a mutual GREAT-grandfather William, not grandfather.
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Well the Op is very noticeable in his absence.
Last on the forum 9th Dec and nothing.
I’m done
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Immediate thought, your Dad and his Siblings are hiding their knowledge of family events!
Alas Irish records are very sporadic, I am 25% Irish and have had great difficulty building my tree and I have been doing so for 15 years.
I would work through your highest cM matches, ignoring any on the Maternal side of your family.
Look at the shared matches, build trees of them and build them into the trees of others. This would be better happening in software where it is easy to combine trees when a MRCA between matches is found.
You could also take a y-DNA test with FTDNA and that will give you your Male to Male lineage. I did just that when my First Cousins all failed to take a DNA test, and found the person I thought was a direct ancestor to be correct.
DNA can be a waiting game so do be patient.
Meanwhile take time to learn about DNA, its inheritance and relationships ie First Cousins share in your case the same Grandfather and you and them are likely to share around 750cM with each other. If a Grandfather is unknown and if he then went on to have further children by a different woman then their Grandchildren would be of the same generation as you. They would be a 1/2 First Cousin and share about 400cM, do note cM for a relationship does cover quite a range.
As others have said uploading DNA to Gedmatch, myFTDNA, My Heritage may yield further results. These will only be useful with DNA knowledge so do study.
A 275cM match to me led to finding one of my Great Great Grandfather’s who was Italian, the match had a tree of him and his Dad and failed to respond to Messages. A 364cM match led to my yDNA test and that shows my Irish Great Great Grandfather to be who I thought him to be. So do not give up it can be as I have said a waiting game.
Hi, Sorry for not replying sooner, I have been unwell over the past two weeks and just stating to feel better again or I would have replied sooner.
One of my cousins has tried to find out about or grandfather and more about him and who his mothers family was. I don't think she got much farther than I have. I asked my uncle a while ago and he said if he can get the research my aunt and cousin were doing, he will pass it onto me, although I am not sure how long that will take.
I would work through your highest cM matches, ignoring any on the Maternal side of your family. - I have done that. Most of my closest matches are either on my paternal grandmothers side or my maternal side so I have ruled them out as I mentioned in my first post.
One match I have 2nd-3rd cousin (246cM) I am pretty sure could be related to my grandfather, and I have contacted her and we don't yet know how we are related.
When I checked related matches to her, it came up with a bunch of 4th-6th cousin matches to people that either have the surname McMullan/McMullen or have direct ancestors who share that surname so I assume that is a connection.
I have a 4th-6th cousin match who's direct ancestor (maiden name McMullen) was at the birth of my great-uncle, but tracing her family leads to a brick wall when her fathers parents marriage certificate doesn't mention the father for him, only his wife. I have started trees for people in the area the family lived with the McMullen or McMullan surname which might help.
Some of the DNA matches I do have with those surnames are in the USA or Canada and don't know where in Ireland their McMullen/McMullan ancestors came from, only Ireland or "County Down" in Ireland which doesn't exactly pinpoint anything as they would have came to the USA pre 1850s, before birth certificates were issued in Ireland in 1864.
I am sure they are is connected to my grandfather somehow as any that do have a location for their ancestors is in roughly a 30 mile radius of where my grandfather was born which is nowhere near my paternal grandmothers family or where my maternal family lived and if they did, I can find the connection.
I also don't have any close matches to anyone who either is or has McKnight/McNeight/McNight as a surname for a direct ancestor, only 5th-8th cousins so that does not really help.
Have you uploaded your DNA to any other sites? You may find useful matches at FamilyTreeDNA and MyHeritage.
I have on GEDMatch but not the other two. My mum and some of her relatives have on MyHeritage.
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Someone did mention this briefly above - the next very important step would be to take a Y-DNA test with FTDNA. I'm assuming you are male, Dave :-)
A small piece of DNA (completely separate from the DNA examined in your Ancestry test) is passed down from father to son, therefore normally following the paternal surname line. The idea is that you will match several men with the same surname, possibly indicating the surname of your great-grandfather. This is the theory, but it doesn't always work like that - as you can well understand, as you yourself did not take his name.
The cheapest Y-37 test would be perfectly adequate for this, to start with (if you upgrade later you just pay the difference).
Yes I am male and I have considered that as a next step, so I will probably do that next year and see if that helps.
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One match I have 2nd-3rd cousin (246cM) I am pretty sure could be related to my grandfather, and I have contacted her and we don't yet know how we are related.
When I checked related matches to her, it came up with a bunch of 4th-6th cousin matches to people that either have the surname McMullan/McMullen or have direct ancestors who share that surname so I assume that is a connection.
......
I have on GEDMatch but not the other two. My mum and some of her relatives have on MyHeritage.
246cM is an excellent match - if you're a similar age then you could share gt-grandparents - it's a fairly typical amount for 2nd cousins to share.
I highly recommend you upload to FamilyTreeDNA and MyHeritage. LivingDNA has a small database but I have found useful matches there that aren't anywhere else.
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One match I have 2nd-3rd cousin (246cM) I am pretty sure could be related to my grandfather, and I have contacted her and we don't yet know how we are related.
When I checked related matches to her, it came up with a bunch of 4th-6th cousin matches to people that either have the surname McMullan/McMullen or have direct ancestors who share that surname so I assume that is a connection.
......
I have on GEDMatch but not the other two. My mum and some of her relatives have on MyHeritage.
246cM is an excellent match - if you're a similar age then you could share gt-grandparents - it's a fairly typical amount for 2nd cousins to share.
I highly recommend you upload to FamilyTreeDNA and MyHeritage. LivingDNA has a small database but I have found useful matches there that aren't anywhere else.
I have uploaded my DNA from Ancestry to FamilyTreeDNA today and just have to wait to see my results. I'll ask my mum if she can do that as we;; which will help sort out which ones are on my maternal side. I don't want to do it on too many sites at once, but I might try LivingDNA. While I did find a lot of matches on GEDMatch that I have on Ancestry, there were some that were not so I understand that using different sites can be useful to find DNA matches that may not be on other sites.
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Perhaps this was covered in the previous thread, but did OP ever check the parish register's for his grandfather's baptism, and that of his grandfather's sibling?
Even though the civil registration did not name the father, parish registers often did.
What religious persuasion were they?
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From previous thread, can't the great-grandfather's identity can possibly be deduced from civil registrations - Samuel McCormick?
Christian name on 1917 civil registration.
On his marriage, his grandfather was "known as" McCormick - his father's name [edit, or his Mom's real name]?
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A possibility. Two Samuel McCormicks, not that far away in 1911 census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Killyleagh/Rathcunningham/239862/ (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Killyleagh/Rathcunningham/239862/)
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Looking at the totality of the circumstances, it seems to me that there is a also a possibility that Margaret was using an alias. Perhaps "McKnight" suggested by the seemingly unrelated McKnight family in the same townland? I also note the earlier comment that OP's Dad may well be concealing family knowledge.
Which to me would reinforce the necessity of checking with parish registers. Not only might they give the father's name (as suggested earlier), but would be a check on her real name - less likely to use an alias with a clergyman who would probably know her?
Also some of the various possible families mentioned in this and the companion Co. Down thread were of different religious persuasions. OP never mentioned his grandfather's religion!
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Hmn, just a thought. The 1911 census shows a Margaret [Margerita] McCormick in the adjacent townland of Clontaghnaglar to Creevycarnonan.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002216755/ (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002216755/)
May simply be a coincidence, of course.
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Perhaps this was covered in the previous thread, but did OP ever check the parish register's for his grandfather's baptism, and that of his grandfather's sibling?
Even though the civil registration did not name the father, parish registers often did.
What religious persuasion were they?
Hello,
My grandfather was Catholic and so were the couple he was living with when he married my grandmother. I'll see if I can find all local church records to where he was born to see if he is mentioned. If they are not online, I won't be able to do that.
As for his family being McCormick's, probably not as I have found no connection to McCormick's other than who he was living with and possibly where his name came from. My grandfather was living with a man named Daniel McCormick who was originally from Cluntagh towland, Crossgar, County Down. His father was John McCormick, so I am guessing at least maybe where his middle name Daniel came from if not his first name too? That doesn't mean I am related to McCormick's as I have found no evidence I am and no DNA matches to anyone related to these McCormick's.
I assumed if you read the original post link I posted to the original topic I made, that Daniel's wife, Annabella McKnight was related to Margaret since they both have the surname McKnight, but I couldn't find any record of Daniel and Annabella's marriage anywhere which might have listed her father's name.
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My grandfather was Catholic and so were the couple he was living with when he married my grandmother. I'll see if I can find all local church records to where he was born to see if he is mentioned. If they are not online, I won't be able to do that.
Why ever not? It's not as if you can't write to them, or in many cases telephone or email.
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I assumed if you read the original post link I posted to the original topic I made, that Daniel's wife, Annabella McKnight was related to Margaret since they both have the surname McKnight, but I couldn't find any record of Daniel and Annabella's marriage anywhere which might have listed her father's name.
Yes, I saw that, but I also saw that so far no birth, baptism or marriage record has emerged for either Margaret or Annabella? And no 1901 or 1911 census for Margaret either. Which seems more than odd. I have more than my own fair share of difficult to find folk, but I have never encountered snyone who ticks all those boxes. Hence wondering if, at least for Margaret, "McKnight" might be an assumed name? Just one more possibility to confuse the issue, I know. But again points to need to check church records.
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I assumed if you read the original post link I posted to the original topic I made, that Daniel's wife, Annabella McKnight was related to Margaret since they both have the surname McKnight, but I couldn't find any record of Daniel and Annabella's marriage anywhere which might have listed her father's name.
Yes, I saw that, but I also saw that so far no birth, baptism or marriage record has emerged for either Margaret or Annabella? And no 1901 or 1911 census for Margaret either. Which seems more than odd. I have more than my own fair share of difficult to find folk, but I have never encountered snyone who ticks all those boxes. Hence wondering if, at least for Margaret, "McKnight" might be an assumed name? Just one more possibility to confuse the issue, I know. But again points to need to check church records.
The other thought other than an assumed name is a misheard name by whoever was registering/writing the record.
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The other thought other than an assumed name is a misheard name by whoever was registering/writing the record.
I could easily believe that for a single instance. But precisely the same misheard/misunderstood name on more than one record? [The birth registrations of the two children].
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I assumed if you read the original post link I posted to the original topic I made, that Daniel's wife, Annabella McKnight was related to Margaret since they both have the surname McKnight, but I couldn't find any record of Daniel and Annabella's marriage anywhere which might have listed her father's name.
Yes, I saw that, but I also saw that so far no birth, baptism or marriage record has emerged for either Margaret or Annabella? And no 1901 or 1911 census for Margaret either. Which seems more than odd. I have more than my own fair share of difficult to find folk, but I have never encountered snyone who ticks all those boxes. Hence wondering if, at least for Margaret, "McKnight" might be an assumed name? Just one more possibility to confuse the issue, I know. But again points to need to check church records.
When I can I'll see if I can find church records. I don't know how old Margaret was when my grandfather or great-uncle were born. I don't know if McKnight might be assumed name, but I am not sure, although it would be odd to be written down the same twice on both my grandfather and great-uncles birth certificates.
There is a 1911 Irish Census record for a Margaret McKnight aged 18, a dressmaker and Roman Catholic in Maghera, County Down: https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Maghera/Drumee/243252
Same family in 1901: https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Maghera/Carnacarvill/1234286/
It says on my great uncle, James McKnight's birth certificate that his mother, Margaret was a dressmaker: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1918/01275/1528624.pdf
Also, there is the name McMullen/McMullan I am getting in my Ancestry DNA matches. This Margaret McKnights parents are Bernard McKnight and Rose McMullan: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1883/10932/5994481.pdf
Her mother being a McMullan might just be a co-incidence though and I may not be related to them but I have no confirmation on that either way.
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When I can I'll see if I can find church records. I don't know how old Margaret was when my grandfather or great-uncle were born. I don't know if McKnight might be assumed name, but I am not sure, although it would be odd to be written down the same twice on both my grandfather and great-uncles birth certificates.
There is a 1911 Irish Census record for a Margaret McKnight aged 18, a dressmaker and Roman Catholic in Maghera, County Down: https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Maghera/Drumee/243252
Same family in 1901: https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Maghera/Carnacarvill/1234286/
It says on my great uncle, James McKnight's birth certificate that his mother, Margaret was a dressmaker: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1918/01275/1528624.pdf
Also, there is the name McMullen/McMullan I am getting in my Ancestry DNA matches. This Margaret McKnights parents are Bernard McKnight and Rose McMullan: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1883/10932/5994481.pdf
Her mother being a McMullan might just be a co-incidence though and I may not be related to them but I have no confirmation on that either way.
Well congratulations!
Looks like you have given yourself a Christmas present!
I think you have gone a long way to resolving some of the mystery - the mother's identity.
She was not turning up due to the spelling of "Margaret" in the census returns - looks like you did the sensible thing and looked at all of them for an anomaly.
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The other thought other than an assumed name is a misheard name by whoever was registering/writing the record.
I could easily believe that for a single instance. But precisely the same misheard/misunderstood name on more than one record? [The birth registrations of the two children].
Point taken!
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When I can I'll see if I can find church records. I don't know how old Margaret was when my grandfather or great-uncle were born. I don't know if McKnight might be assumed name, but I am not sure, although it would be odd to be written down the same twice on both my grandfather and great-uncles birth certificates.
There is a 1911 Irish Census record for a Margaret McKnight aged 18, a dressmaker and Roman Catholic in Maghera, County Down: https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Maghera/Drumee/243252
Same family in 1901: https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Maghera/Carnacarvill/1234286/
It says on my great uncle, James McKnight's birth certificate that his mother, Margaret was a dressmaker: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1918/01275/1528624.pdf
Also, there is the name McMullen/McMullan I am getting in my Ancestry DNA matches. This Margaret McKnights parents are Bernard McKnight and Rose McMullan: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1883/10932/5994481.pdf
Her mother being a McMullan might just be a co-incidence though and I may not be related to them but I have no confirmation on that either way.
Well congratulations!
Looks like you have given yourself a Christmas present!
I think you have gone a long way to resolving some of the mystery - the mother's identity.
She was not turning up due to the spelling of "Margaret" in the census returns - looks like you did the sensible thing and looked at all of them for an anomaly.
Not necessarily. I checked my closest DNA matches with McMullen or McMullans on their trees as direct ancestors who have an exact location for them who don't appear to be on my mums side and their McMullens are from Drin and Guinness which are here:
Drin: https://www.townlands.ie/down/iveagh-upper-lower-half/dromara/crossgar/drin/
Guiness: https://www.townlands.ie/down/kinelarty/magherahamlet/dunmore/guiness/
Not the same area as Rose McMullan was living, but I have started to make a trees with those McMullens/McMullans and also Rose family to see if that helps.