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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: paul_mc on Friday 15 December 23 22:33 GMT (UK)
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Was hoping for some help with another brick wall.
I have Alexander Mouat marrying Phillis Phoebe Thompson on the 23rd of May 1928 in Edinburgh. I have all I need on Alexander however there is a real mystery about Phillis and her parents. I can not find a single trace of them anywhere prior to the wedding.
Her parents were Charles Gabriel Thompson and Mary Thompson ms. Holland. Charles is dead by the time of the wedding and Mary is still alive. But there is nothing of them. No deaths, no marriage, nothing.
Can any of you good people help ?
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Hello :)
Some questions:
What was Phillis Phoebe's age when marrying Alexander?
What was her late father's occupation?
Who were the witness to the marriage and do you know who they are?
When/where did Phillis die? any clues on death record?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Bride and Groom were both 23 when married in 1928
Her late father was a building contractor
witnesses were James Patrick Macdonald and Margaret Douglas or Macdonald
Phillis died in Bristol England so little on the death certificate sadly
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Have you found Phillis in the 1921 census?
or 1911 census?
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No I cant find her.
When I look at the valuation rolls for 13 Royal Circus it looks like a hotel or boarding/lodging house - maybe they werent living in Edinburgh - simply passing through?
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There is this death
THOMPSON, CHARLES GABRIELSON 71
GRO Reference: 1924 S Quarter in SUNDERLAND Volume 10A Page 587
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There are some CGT events in the USA too, but it’s taking me a while to work through them and I need to go out.
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That death in Sunderland isn't him as when i check the census hes married to Margaret and not Mary
But I appreciate the help you are all giving me
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From the 1928 marriage, Alexander Mouat was an accountant
Found all this: shows his wife as a couple years younger than he
Departed Glasgow 2 Aug 1929, bound for Montreal on ship "Melita"
Alex Mouat 27, Accountant
Philippia Mouat 25, Housewife
Arrived Montreal, Quebec 10 Aug 1929 out of Glasgow
Alexander Mouat 27, Accountant, b Edinburgh
Philippia Mouat 25, b Birmingham
Last Residence: Scotland (and gave a sister Margaret Mouat address in Edinburgh)
Intended residence : Canada (and gave an Uncle Alexander Mouat address in BC)
Arrived Liverpool 7 Nov 1936, on Ship "Letitia "
Alexander Mouat 32, Auditor
Philippia Mouat 27
(B - dau) 10
(M - dau 3
(J - Son) 2
(A - son) 10mths
Country of last permanent Residence: Canada
In 1946 to 1953 Phillipia is listed with eldest Mouat child (daughter) in Saddleworth, Yorkshire
The daughter however - had married 1951 Saddlesworth
In 1954 Phillipia still at same address - on her own
I'm not finding her death in Bristol? Did she die a Mouat and what was the year?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Marriages Mar 1959 (>99%)
MONAT Phyllis P Jan PASTUSZAK Middleton 10e 1187
Deaths Dec 1962 (>99%)
PASTUSZAK Philippa 53 Bristol 7b 1
I wonder what the 1959 marriage cert would say
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This is fantastic. Thank you so much.
How would I get hold of that certificate?
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You would have to order it here. You have to register, and then pay. Because it’s a marriage it will come by snail mail.. do you have a UK contact/address it can be sent to? Otherwise it takes FOREVER for them to arrive!
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/app_select.asp
Enter the page & volume from the link I gave (from freebmd)
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One thibg I don't understand though...
On the 1939 census shes married to Alex Moaut but listed as Phillipa Pastuszad (Mouat) so that would lead me to think her maiden name was Pastuszad however now i see there was a marriage in 1959 to Jan Pastuszak. Has the Pastuszad only been added to the 1939 record as it was only recentky released and someone was just tidying things up?
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The 1939 register was a 'living record' and until the 1990's women's surnames were updated to show their married name(s) If she was born 1 Aug 1909 in England/Wales, we might expect her Birth Reg to be in the Sep Qtr that year - or perhaps in the Dec Qtr.
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ok thanks for explaining. Now that I know she was born in Birmingham. How do I set about finding her parents?
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ok thanks for explaining. Now that I know she was born in Birmingham. How do I set about finding her parents?
;D That's the million $ question - I think, the 1959 marriage to see her father's details and compare to the 1928 Scotland marriage will be good. She said she was born Birmingham - but that may not be the case, considering the Phillis Phoebe / Philippia differences!
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Beatrice Mouat Appears on the 1939 register below Alexander and Philippa (DOB 2 versions of it – the 1926 one I think is correct)
In 1929, Beatrice age 4, travels to Quebec to her father Mr Alex Mouat in Victoria B C
Travelling with her is a sister-in-law named Eva Thompson age 17 born Worcester. She is travelling to her brother-in law-in Quebec ( Alexander).
(Beatrice returns to Scotland when the whole family come back in 1936.)
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Snap Neale 1961 :D I too had just found Beatrice and Aunty Eva in 1929
I had noticed - on the 1936 manifest of the family arriving in England, the daughter (B) her age is given as 10, so born about 1926. And the same daughter on the Register (with the 1951 married name Garforth added) has the birthdate 25 Dec 1922 (and above it added 21 Dec 1926) - either way, prior to the 1928 marriage.
She travelled seperately on same ship as Alexander & Philippia
Beatrice Mouat 4, b Birmingham, England, passage paid by Father:
Alex Mouat, c/o Government Buildings, Victoria BC
Sister in Law: Eva Thompson 17, Scholar, b Worcester, passage paid by Brother in law.
Nearest relative: Whence came Aunt Mrs Esbel Carter, 42 Snow Hill, Birmingham
Note against Beatrice "with parents travelled Cabin, sheet 4 lines 9 &10" (which they were)
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1931 Canada census Manitoba
Alexander Mouat 28 born Scotland Accountant
Philippia Mouat 25 born England
Beatrice Mouat 5 born Scotland
Eva Thompson 17 born England (domestic)
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1931 42 Snow Hill, Birmingham is the YWCA emergency Hostel. :-\
Quite a long article detailing some case histories in Birmingham Daily Gazette
06 November 1931
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The Aunt Mrs Esbel CARTER of 42 Snow Hill, Birmingham
is I think Mrs Ethel CARTER
there is a marriage in Hull 2nd August 1915
Walter Carter 19, Boiler Cleaner , 2 Reticks(?) Yard, Osborne Street, father Albert a Hawker, deceased
Ethel Mary Thompson 18, 4 Buckingham Terrace, Adelaide Street, father Charles Thompson, deceased occupation might say Erector - but I am not sure.
witnesses Leonard Percy & Agnes Hempstock
1901 census
20. Brigham Tce, Hull
Charles Thompson, head 24, Iron Yard Labourer, born Norway (B.S)
Mary Jane Thompson, wife, 21 born Hull
Mary Ethel 3 born Hull
there is a marriage indexed in 1897 of a Charles Thompson to a Mary Jane HARLAND (v close to Holland?)
births - all mother's maiden name, HARLAND - might be more, but GRO is being twitchy tonight.
Thompson, Mary Ethel 1898 Jqtr, Hull, Vol 09D page 262,
Thompson Albert Edward 1905, Mqtr, Hull, Vol 09D, page 339
Thompson Mary Jane 1909 Dqtr, Hull Vol 09D, Pge 269
Thompson, Charles Amiel Julius 1910 Dqtr, Hull vol 09D, page 255
Thompson Eva 1914 D Qtr, Hull, Vol09D, page 513
Eva & Ethel would fit, as well as name of father, and mother, (more or less) and I like HARLAND being misconstrued as HOLLAND - so I wondered if Mary Jane b 1909 could have changed her name to something more exciting like Phillis etc etc,
But the trouble is I cannot find this family in 1911 or 1921
They are not at 20 Brigham Terrace in 1911
and I find it advertised to let Daily Mail. 14 October 1902.
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Charles Amil Julius was baptised and parents address is 11 Paradise Tce.
The 1911 for that address has Mary Jane Harland, married 14 yrs, age 31. 8 children, 6 living.
So…is that Mary Jane Thompson? And if so, why is she going by Harland? And where are Charles & the children?
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Harland =? Holland I wonder .....
Good work mckha489. Looks promising
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And Charles Amil. Has a ring of Charles Emille, which might transform to Charles Gabriel ??
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1901 census
20. Brigham Tce, Hull
Charles Thompson, head 24, Iron Yard Labourer, born Norway (B.S)
Mary Jane Thompson, wife, 21 born Hull
Mary Ethel 3 born Hull
there is a marriage indexed in 1897 of a Charles Thompson to a Mary Jane HARLAND (v close to Holland?)
That Charles Thompson died in 1914, 15th Oct.
Burial here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-996P-XZFL?view=index&action=view
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Excellent
And the 11 Paradise place address again.
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I wonder if the 1909 birth date is accurate? Her age seems to be inconsistent
1928 (mc) 23 implies DoB 1904/1905
1929 (passenger lists) 25 implies DoB 1903/1904
1931 (census) 25 implies DoB 1905/1906
1936 (passenger list) 27 implies DoB 1908/1909
1939 (register) gives DoB 1909
1962 (dc) 53 implies DoB 1908/1909
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Everyone, this has been simply fantastic. Thank you so much for the time and effort.
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I wonder if the 1909 birth date is accurate? Her age seems to be inconsistent
1928 (mc) 23 implies DoB 1904/1905
1929 (passenger lists) 25 implies DoB 1903/1904
1931 (census) 25 implies DoB 1905/1906
1936 (passenger list) 27 implies DoB 1908/1909
1939 (register) gives DoB 1909
1962 (dc) 53 implies DoB 1908/1909
Yes, I agree. It isn’t helpful.
If only someone could find any of the family in 1911 or 1921. You would think Charles Amil Julius would be traceable, as he is living later.
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There's a Mary J Thompson b 1880 in Hull/Sculcoates in 1921. With her are Phoeby b c1902 and GH (no full name given)
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There's a Mary J Thompson b 1880 in Hull in 1921. With her are Phoeby b c1902 and GH (no full name give)
I’ve looked at her, and she has been in/out/in lol. She marries George H(arold) Carrington in 1920 (the image shows the correction) which of course doesn’t mean she couldn’t have run off to Scotland and married bigamously
I think she is the 1902 baptism as Phoebe Sophia dau of Charles & Mary Jane…but the church is different from all the other baptisms I can see.
Ive been trying to figure out if there are two Charles & Mary Jane Thompson couples….i think there could be.
One thing in her favour though is her birthdate is given on the baptism as 1 Aug 1902 and 1 Aug is the date we have on the 1939…..
I cannot see her on the GRO or FreeBMD
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I’ve been looking at Phoebe too.
I was trying to find the 8 children for mary Jane Harland / Thompson before 1911 census
So far ----
Children of Charles and Mary Jane Thompson (baptism transcripts on Family Search)
• Mary Ethel – bapt 30 March 1898 (born 5 march) - birth registered in Hull
• John Robert - bapt 18 July 1900 (born 30 June) - birth registered in Hull – Death registered 1900
• Phoebe Sophia - bapt 20 Aug 1902 (born 1st Aug) – birth not registered [?Marriage for her in 1920 Hull to George H Carrington]
• Charles Stanley - bapt 6 Jan 1904 (born 28 Nov 1903) – birth not registered – Death registered 1904
• Albert Edward birth registered 1905 in Hull – no baptism found
• Joseph birth registered 1907 in Hull – no baptism found
• Mary Jane - bapt 20 Oct 1909 (born 17 Sept) - birth registered in Hull
• Charles Annel Julius - bapt 28 Sept 1910 (born 29 Aug) – birth registered in Hull
• Eva - bapt 7 Oct 1914 (born 24 Sept) – birth registered in Hull
Note – in 1939 Philippia / Phyllis Phoebe gives her birth date as 1 Aug (same as Phoebe Sophia)
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That Phoebe & George are on the Hull electoral roll 1922
After that there is a George Harold Carrington on his own, but I think there is more than one of that name in Hull. :(
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Possibly more children?
THOMPSON, STANLEY
mmn HARLAND
Q1 1913 HULL Volume 09D Page 530
THOMPSON, ROSE
mmn HARLAND
Q3 1916 SCULCOATES Volume 09D Page 308
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Deleted, as Neale61 has updated their earlier post :)
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Possibly more children?
THOMPSON, STANLEY
mmn HARLAND
Q1 1913 HULL Volume 09D Page 530
THOMPSON, ROSE
mmn HARLAND
Q3 1916 SCULCOATES Volume 09D Page 308
Stanley (1913) is possibly correct. The first son named Stanley died as as in infant.
Rose (1916) - unlikely as Mary Jane's husband died in 1914.
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There's a Mary J Thompson b 1880 in Hull/Sculcoates in 1921. With her are Phoeby b c1902 and GH (no full name given)
That Phoebe & George are on the Hull electoral roll 1922
After that there is a George Harold Carrington on his own, but I think there is more than one of that name in Hull. :(
GH on 1921 is Mr Carrington
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Thinking out loud to see if others are thinking along same lines, or am I thinking rubbish. :)
Possible scenario ……
Phoebe Sophia born 1902 marries G H Carrington in 1920
They have a child named Beatrice :
CARRINGTON, BEATRICE MARY mother - Thompson
GRO Reference: 1924 M Quarter in SCULCOATES Volume 09D Page 379
Either the marriage ends or Carrington dies …
Phoebe Sophia moves to Scotland with her child Beatrice.
And in 1928 she marries Alexander Mouat. As it was in Scotland, even had she been a widow or divorced, she would have married under her maiden name Thompson. Of course, she may have changed her name deliberately to Phyllis and then to Philippia if she was still married to Carrington. Their move to Canada for 7 years may have been to avoid being found by Carrington. The child Beatrice Carrington became Beatrice Mouat.
The discrepancies in age for Phoebe – Phillis – Phillipa does not worry me so much. She altered her age on marriage to Mouat so she would not be older than him, then as the years progressed she made herself younger / her birth year later. (This is pretty normal for women at this time – I have a whole tree of relatives who were up to 10 years younger than their real year of birth!) However, her birthday remained 1st August.
The thing that worries me is that this Thompson family is definitely from Hull, but the few travel records we have say Birmingham.
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Yes, that is exactly what I am thinking. But, like you, I cannot get them to either Worcester or Birmingham satisfactorily.
Has any work be done on the address at Hoylake the Mouats returned to in 1936
13 Eaton Terrace, Hoylake, Cheshire
Not showing in newspapers, so perhaps a private home rather than a hotel/boarding house
(Can only find an Eaton Road, Hoylake/West Kirby, so hope it is the same place.
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I think you are all spot on about Beatrice however proving it might be another matter entirely - If we could see her birth certificate that might clear matters up - any suggestions on how we prove this theory ?
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Easy enough - order a copy of it from https://www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate
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I've found George and Phoebe on the 1921 census living in Hull. Mother Mary Jane is living with them -
9, Columbine Terrace, Stricklane Street, Holy Trinity and St Mary, Yorkshire (East Riding), England
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Are there two George Harold Carringtons?
Or did he commit bigamy? How long did it take to get a divorce in England in the 1920s?
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I just ought to point out: A Beatrice Thomson birth was registered in Newbattle, Midlothian in 1925
As to the address the MOUAT family returned to in 1936:
I can't find 13 Eaton Terrace and same, can only find this, which is outside of the Hoylake boundary on modern map: Eaton Road, West Kirby, Wirral, Merseyside CH48. On the maps, there can be seen nearby Devonport and Grosnevor Roads . Murphy's Law or whatever it may be, but………..
Working backwards: 3 yrs later
13 Eaton Road, Birkenhead, (Nearby streets were: Devonport, Grosnevor)
John Thompson b 8 Apr 1883. Mixed General Shopkeeper
Harriet Thompson b 21 Jan 1881
John Thompson b 16 Mar 1914 General Labourer
Irene Thompson b 28 Apr 1921 (later Lewis) Shop Asst
Birth : Irene Thompson, 1921, Birkenhead, mms Griffiths
Earlier:
39 Park Street Birkenhead
John Thompson 27, General labourer,
Harriet Thompson 30,
Married 4 years, 1 child born of the marriage - is deceased
Brother in law William Griffiths 22, Bricklayer
Brother in law Thomas Griffiths 16, Errand Boy
Sister-in-Law: Anges Griffiths (sic), 17, Domestic Servant
All born Birkenhead
And 4 years prior:
Marriage 4 Nov 1906 at St Nathaniels, Edge Hill , Liverpool (West Derby)
John Thompson 23, Bachelor, Shop Assistant, of 84 St Arnaud St. Father: James Thompson, Grocer.
Harriet Griffiths 25, Spinster, of 84 St Arnaud St. Father: Thomas Griffith, Boiler maker
Witness: Patrick Churchill. Rosanna Churchill
I don't know.............. ???
Paul, good find! what were the full details of the 1921 Census ( incl ages, places of birth, occupations, etc)
;D
Cheers
AMBLY
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Aha! There are indeed two George Harold Carringtons in the 1922 Register of Electors, both in the parish of St Mary and Holy Trinity, Hull.
One at 1 Ion's Avenue, Villa Place, with Phoebe Sophia Carrington. The other on his own at 3 Columbine Terrace.
In 1923 there's one at 2 Elgin Terrace with Fred Vernon Potter and Olive Sabina Potter, and one on his own at 3 Columbine Terrace.
In 1920, 1924, 1925 and 1927 one is at 44 William Street with Robert Carrington and Ada Carrington.
In 1930 and 1931 there's one at 2 Richard's Place with Lucy Olive Brocklebank.
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And in 1928 she marries Alexander Mouat. As it was in Scotland, even had she been a widow or divorced, she would have married under her maiden name Thompson.
Strictly speaking, if she was widowed or divorced her marriage should have been indexed under both her maiden and her previous married surnames.
The absence of a previous married surnames, plus the possible mis-spelling of her mother's surname and perhaps the invention of a middle name for her father, might imply that she was not being entirely truthful.
Maybe she was also lying when she said she was from Birmingham?
I wonder how she accounted to her new husband for Beatrice? And where was Beatrice when her mother and stepfather first travelled to Canada?
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Hi Forfarian,
Reply#16 & #17
Beatrice travelled to Canada on the same date & ship as Alexander & Phillipia - stated as her parents - she was listed on a different page of the manifest, with her aunt, Eva Thompson.
The 1931 Canada Census states her (Beatrice) as born Scotland, which may or may not be true ;)
Cheers
AMBLY
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I think we are on to something.
Beatrice never ever had a copy of her own borth certificate - Or at least she said she didn't. There's obviously a story here.
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Regarding Beatrice.
We have conflicting birth dates on the 1939 register, and conflicting birth place (Birmingham and Scotland) in travel and census.
Forfarian has found Phoebe and husband Carrington in Edinburgh in 1922, so maybe the birth found by Ambly, under THOMSON surname in 1925 Newbattle is the one to look at first to see if that is correct. If not, then there is the other to try.
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It's NOT the one born in Newbattle in 1925 as her mothers maiden name was Ramsey.
So it must be the other one
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It's NOT the one born in Newbattle in 1925 as her mothers maiden name was Ramsey.
No, indeed it's not.
There is a death of a Beatrice Thomson, aged 74, in Glasgow in 2000, mmn Ramsay. However her other surname was Glendinning. Beatrice Glendinning married Duncan Thomson in Glasgow in 1949, and Beatrice Glendinning, mmn Ramsay, was born in Glasgow in 1925.
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Forfarian has found Phoebe and husband Carrington in Edinburgh in 1922
No, I didn't.
They were in Hull, not Edinburgh.
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As to the address the MOUAT family returned to in 1936:
I can't find 13 Eaton Terrace and same, can only find this, which is outside of the Hoylake boundary on modern map: Eaton Road, West Kirby, Wirral, Merseyside CH48. On the maps, there can be seen nearby Devonport and Grosnevor Roads . Murphy's Law or whatever it may be, but………..
Working backwards: 3 yrs later
13 Eaton Road, Birkenhead, (Nearby streets were: Devonport, Grosnevor)
John Thompson b 8 Apr 1883. Mixed General Shopkeeper
Harriet Thompson b 21 Jan 1881
John Thompson b 16 Mar 1914 General Labourer
Irene Thompson b 28 Apr 1921 (later Lewis) Shop Asst
I found a different 13 Eaton Road
And I am really sorry, I have a golf game so will have to get to this later if no one else does.
But meanwhile the husband was Frederick Taylor born 1883 and wife Elizabeth born 1888. There were several children. Last night, I could not figure out who they were at all. 😀
John Thompson 23, Bachelor, Shop Assistant, of 84 St Arnaud St. Father: James Thompson, Grocer.
I don't know.............. ???
Charles of Norway & Hull’s father was Thomas Thompson (on the marriage cert which is on FindMyPast )
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So - back from golf ;D, but not any further ahead.
the Eaton Road I found is at West Kirby and runs between Banks Road and Hilbre Road parallel to Church Road.
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Not sure how much further we can go at the moment without certificates to support our theory. :)
Maybe paul_mc can get back to us once the various certificates have been obtained.
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Thanks everyone and a Merry Christmas. I’ll look into the certificates.
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Merry Christmas to you!
Very much looking forward to the results and updates once you have them
:D
PS As i was posting, it dawned, that the marriage record transcript found for Charles Ameil Julius Thompson in 1934, gave the same name for his father… and “Charles Gabriel” could be Phillis Phoebe/Philippia’s rendition of that….