RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: scottishlad on Thursday 01 February 24 20:56 GMT (UK)
-
I have an Isaac McKenzie 'warehouse porter' b. 1869 to James McKenzie and Rachel Bennet.
in 1893 at the age of 23 he marries Mariah McKenzie 23, parents Robert McKenzie and Agnes Townsley. Marriage cert identifies them as cousins.
This Isaac dies in 1935, listed as "married to Maria Jane McKenzie"
I also have a Maria Jane McKenzie b. 1872 to Isaac McKenzie and Harriet Tennant.
I have a death certificate for this Maria Jane, in 1943, "widow of Isaac McKenzie warehouse porter".
Help me make this make sense. The marriage certificate for the Isaac with parents James and Rachel Bennet, who dies in 1935, is the warehouse porter that married Mariah daughter of Robert McKenzie and Agnes Townsley. Then why does my Maria Jane, who dies in 1943 the widow of an Isaac McKenzie warehouse porter?
Only thing I can think of is Isaac marries a cousin named Mariah, and then married another cousin named Maria Jane? Or there are two Isaac McKenzie warehouse porters running around. There's no way the Robert and Agnes Townsley names were just a clerical error or something. I also can't find any other documents for a "Mariah". This isn't adding up. I'm very confused. Any help is greatly appreciated!
Edit: also, what would have constituted a cousin back then? Because I know the Isaac son of James and Rachel Bennet is in my tree. So whoever Robert and Agnes Townsley are, they are unknown to me. The generation Robert should be in already has a Robert that lived well into adulthood. So either Robert is the very end of the next generation, or they are cousins via the Townsley side (which could be possible, Townsley is the maiden name of James and Rachel Bennet's mother/mother in law.
-
I can't answer your question, but don't get hung up on the h in Mariah. Just think of her as plain Maria.
-
I can't answer your question, but don't get hung up on the h in Mariah. Just think of her as plain Maria.
I agree I'm not focusing on that, really I'm just confused who Robert and Agnes Townsley are. The marriage certificate for 'mariah' "should" list Isaac and Harriet Tennant, but it doesn't so that's where the confusion is. I'm not sure how to make heads or tails of this.
-
It is not particularly easy to follow your original post. However perhaps do not assume that all information on a death certificate is accurate. Look who the informant was. The information given is only as good as their knowledge or memory.
-
It is not particularly easy to follow your original post. However perhaps do not assume that all information on a death certificate is accurate. Look who the informant was. The information given is only as good as their knowledge or memory.
Both are signed by the same person, a son James.
To summarize my original post as best I can, basically:
Isaac (son of James and Rachel Bennet) marries Mariah (daughter of Robert and Agnes Townsley).
They are both cousins.
Isaac is a warehouse porter.
Isaac dies with widow listed as Maria Jane.
The "cousin" Maria Jane I have, that is also the correct age, and who's death certificate lists husband as "Isaac McKenzie warehouse porter", was the daughter of Isaac and Harriet Tennant, NOT Robert and Agnes Townsley.
So where is the error/mixup and who are Robert and Agnes Townsley?
-
The obvious answer is that the couple's fathers (James and Robert McKenzie) are brothers.
Have you traced the family back in the censuses?
-
The obvious answer is that the couple's fathers (James and Robert McKenzie) are brothers.
Have you traced the family back in the censuses?
Can’t be. There already is a brother Robert (married to a Mary Ann Devine, not Agnes Townsley), and there’s no record via census or anywhere else for this other Robert. I’ve also never seen a double name in my family tree (unless the first child died already, only then was a name reused). That also doesn’t explain why Maria Jane widow of Isaac McKenzie warehouse porter who I know is a cousin of Isaac McKenzie warehouse porter, has parents Isaac and Harriet Tennant, NOT Robert and Agnes Townsley. Now that Robert did remarry but he remarried a Jessie, not an Agnes.
Either Mariah is Maria Jane and she didn’t know the names of her own parents, and Isaac and his parents didn’t know the name of their own relative (since they’re supposedly cousins), or I don’t know haha none of this makes any sense
-
Have you assumed that they are 1st cousins, when they may be more distant cousins than that?
-
Have you assumed that they are 1st cousins, when they may be more distant cousins than that?
I don’t believe they’re first cousins anymore because like I said it just doesn’t fit that way, but I’m not sure what constituted “cousins” back then. I’m assuming not just 1st cousins, just anybody related by blood. I think I’ll have to just out a cork on it for now and try to expand the tree a bit and see if any of these connections pop up. Thank you for the reply!
-
SP index shows the 1893 marriage, and birth Maria Jane Mckenzie in 1872 mmn Tennant. I don't see any similar birth in 1870, so there seems to be just the one Maria/Maria Jane with various spellings.
Do you have the marriage record from SP showing the whole page of the register? Did the bride sign or make her mark? If the latter, maybe someone else gave mistaken information about her parents.
Or, could she perhaps, like an illiterate woman in my husband's family, have named the people she lived with who were seemingly her guardians, not her parents? Where was Maria prior to her marriage?
What other names are on the register page? It's a remote possibility, but could a mistake have crept in when the Register was copied to send to Edinburgh? It's easy enough for someone's eye to skip a line when copying.
-
SP index shows the 1893 marriage, and birth Maria Jane Mckenzie in 1872 mmn Tennant. I don't see any similar birth in 1870, so there seems to be just the one Maria/Maria Jane with various spellings.
Do you have the marriage record from SP showing the whole page of the register? Did the bride sign or make her mark? If the latter, maybe someone else gave mistaken information about her parents.
Or, could she perhaps, like an illiterate woman in my husband's family, have named the people she lived with who were seemingly her guardians, not her parents? Where was Maria prior to her marriage?
What other names are on the register page? It's a remote possibility, but could a mistake have crept in when the Register was copied to send to Edinburgh? It's easy enough for someone's eye to skip a line when copying.
You know for a second I thought you were on to something because assuming Mariah/Maria Jane are one and the same which I believe they are, her parents were both dead by the time she was 12 (her mother died when she was 6, and her father when she was 12). So I’m not sure who she was living with in the meantime, however upon second look at the marriage certificate both Robert McKenzie and Agnes Townsley are listed as deceased. So there would have been no difference listing her birth parents. I guess they could have both recently died and maybe she felt closer to them living with them for 11ish years with more of a memory. Idk, I was hoping that would be it haha she did make her mark btw, Isaac signed. The only witness name I can make out elsewhere on the document appears to be a brother in law of Isaac’s, Thomas McIntyre who married his sister Agnes.
-
SP index shows the 1893 marriage, and birth Maria Jane Mckenzie in 1872 mmn Tennant. I don't see any similar birth in 1870, so there seems to be just the one Maria/Maria Jane with various spellings.
Do you have the marriage record from SP showing the whole page of the register? Did the bride sign or make her mark? If the latter, maybe someone else gave mistaken information about her parents.
Or, could she perhaps, like an illiterate woman in my husband's family, have named the people she lived with who were seemingly her guardians, not her parents? Where was Maria prior to her marriage?
What other names are on the register page? It's a remote possibility, but could a mistake have crept in when the Register was copied to send to Edinburgh? It's easy enough for someone's eye to skip a line when copying.
It must be a guardian thing. I really can’t think of any other possibility that somebody would give two completely wrong names for her parents. These families were very close knit they all would have known everybody. I can’t imagine somebody would have been providing information like that and wouldn’t have actually known. So I believe Robert and Agnes Townsley existed, I just don’t know how they fit in. I can’t find any records on them either. Perhaps that’s who Maria Jane was living with though. That’s the only thing that makes any sense. I’ll have to keep digging. Thank you for your help!
-
Just an update: they are definitely the same people because the son James who acted as informant for the Maria Jane parents Isaac and Harriet Tennant, and the Isaac McKenzie parents James and Rachel Bennet (who married “Mariah” with different parents listed Robert and Agnes Townsley), lived at 604 Gallowgate in Glasgow for both death certificates.
Knowing that Mariah/Maria Jane lost both of her parents by the age of 12, she must have been living with Robert and Agnes Townsley, her guardians for most of her remembered life at that point, and when filling out the marriage certificate she listed them instead.
I still don’t know where Robert and Agnes Townsley fit into my tree, but now I at least have a starting point and names to look for. Thank you everybody for your help!