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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: lin-james on Monday 05 February 24 19:16 GMT (UK)
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Seeking information about Frances Moss who married John Charles ( Granhangen) in 1857. Went to Australia about 1864. Went to New Zealand and I think married again. Would like to connect the dots as to went to New Zealand.
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Hello lin-james
I think you possibly have the wrong approximate year of birth for Frances MOSS. ???
She seems much more likely to have been born (London) between 1838 - 1841. (I'll check that further for you).
Her marriage to John CHARLES in January 1857 only shows that both bride and groom were of full age. Her father's names is given a Jacob MOSS - occupation jeweller.
There is a baptism of a Frances MOSES* at St John, Bethnal Green, Middlesex, on 12 May 1844 - parents Sarah and Jacob MOSES (a jeweller) residing at 6 King Street (Commercial Road ?) who is possibly the Frances MOSS who later married John CHARLES ???
[ Note : the baptism record doesn't state if child is an infant or older. ]
Further, there is a New Zealand marriage of a Frances CHARLES ... and the New Zealand death of a woman (1899) which closely matches a "Frances" born c. 1838.
I'll post further details shortly for this.
~ Lu
... further info to follow > >
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Hi
Here is a notice of the marriage of Frances CHARLES ... which took place in Canterbury, NZ, 1875.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/LT18751228.2.8
~ Lu
... still more to come >
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... and notice of death for Frances HAMILTON in 1899.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TS18990126.2.33
[I'll return to this with further info ... but meantime there is a listing at Findagrave.com for her burial at Avonside Cemetery, Christchurch, Canterbury, NZ if you wish to seek that out. ]
~ Lu
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Probate file for Frances HAMILTON of Linwood (Christchurch) - Widow :
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE80827143
... some 30 + pages here ... I haven't looked through them yet. ;)
~ Lu
Added : Probate file for David Wilson HAMILTON (d. 1887) ... [ husband of FRANCES (formerly CHARLES). He left his estate to her. ] :
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE69018264
Again a very lengthy document (80 + pages) but just adding in case you need for reference.
It does seem that Frances (formerly CHARLES) had no issue. [ Her Will mentions only her siblings and nieces. I found nothing in Birth indexes that suggests she had children. ]
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.... Went to Australia about 1864.
Yes, the year is correct. ;)
Unassisted Immigration : Passengers to New South Wales - November 1864
Vessel : "Egmont"
They are listed as crew members >
John CHARLES - steward - aged 30 years ( bc 1834 ) - native place : Looks like "London" (but UK census 1861 seems to indicate he was born outside of UK ... so perhaps placename is "Leiden" or somesuch ??
Frances CHARLES - stewardess - 25 years ( bc 1839 ) - native place : England
~ Lu
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1841 census St George East Middlesex King Street
Jacob Moses 40 Jeweller (not born in county)
Sarah Moses 26 (not born in county)
Rosa 12 (born in county)
Frances 5 (born in county)
Michel (male) 3 (born in county)
Sarah 1 (born in county)
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?Possible Birth registration
MOSES, FRANCES mother - PHILLIPS
GRO Reference: 1837 S Quarter in OF THE CITY OF LONDON UNION Volume 02 Page 90
Added later - No i don’t think that is correct now.
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Hi Neale
... my thoughts about birth of Frances ;)
GRO
MOSES - Frances - 1843 - J Quarter - Saint Luke, Middlesex
Mother's maiden surname : SALOMANS
also this > >
GRO
MOSES - Sarah Cealin?** - 1845 - St Lukes, Middlesex
MMS = SALOMANS
** Shown as "Cecilia" on another record
[ I just mention this Sarah MOSES because have since found that the Frances who died in NZ had a sister named Sarah who was mentioned in her Will. Still trying to track this Sarah in NZ ... and other family members who might also have lived here. ]
Added : MOSES - Rosa -dau - 12 years (dau of Jacob MOSES - as shown 1841 UK census) . Rosa ("my sister") also mentioned in Will of Frances HAMILTON :
Frances - 23 - (married) and Sarah (dau of Jacob MOSES) appear on 1861 census (Tower Hamlets) along with CHARLES*, Granhangen - 26 - (son-in-law of Joseph MOSES ) : Joseph MOSES at this time has a wife "Charlotte aged 60" ) : * Presumably husband of Frances - who is also known as "John CHARLES" (married January 1857 - His father : Granhangen - shown on marriage cert.)
~ Lu
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I see all the other children for Jacob and Sarah are all baptised very late - at the age of about 5 years or older.
Birth registration I think would have been more likely recorded closer to the birth, but I really don't know. ???
I can't find the family in 1851 census, although some of the children seem to be working out as servants.
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Rosina Moses married Oct 1849 to Francis Arnold Collen
In 1851 census Rosina (30 born Birmingham) and husband Francis ( 23 born Prussia) and baby Alexander are in Bethnal Green.
Her father Jacob Moses is with them – age 59 born Poland, jeweller
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG5P-J5H
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1861 census Tower Hamlets
Jacob Moses 64 fruiterer and jeweller
Charlotte Moses 60 wife, Ludlow, Shropshire
Mon Moses 25 Son
Frances Moses 23Daughter
Sarah Moses 20 Daughter
Charles Granhangen 26 Son-in-law
? Marriage 23 Oct 1827 Worcestershire
Jacob Moses and Charlotte Owen
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Letters waiting collection GPO Sydney 1875.
Grenhagen J. C.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/223685369
Sue
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Went to New Zealand and I think married again. Would like to connect the dots as to went to New Zealand.
It is unclear what information is being sought. Some clarification would be helpful.
“ Connect the dots” …. What dots?
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1861 census Tower Hamlets
Jacob Moses 64 fruiterer and jeweller
Charlotte Moses 60 wife, Ludlow, Shropshire
Mon Moses 25 Son
Frances Moses 23Daughter
Sarah Moses 20 Daughter
Charles Granhangen 26 Son-in-law
Is it a bit odd that Frances is listed as surname MOSES?
If she was married to GRANHANGEN in 1857 and he is listed as son in law of Jacob , her surnames is GRANHANGEN.
I do note on this 1861 census, GRANHANGEN's occ is ships steward.
what did a stewardess do on a ship in 1864?
Sue
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Went to New Zealand and I think married again. Would like to connect the dots as to went to New Zealand.
It is unclear what information is being sought. Some clarification would be helpful.
“ Connect the dots” …. What dots?
I agree ... yes, it would be helpful. ;)
I did add a belated note to one of my earlier posts here (Reply # ) ... suggesting that this Frances HAMILTON who died in 1899, may not have had issue of either marriage (assuming she was also earlier, the wife of John CHARLES ) ??? So would be interested to know where she fits in the "scheme of things". ;)
* Do you mean "connect the dots ... as to when she arrived in NZ " ?
Not always easy to find when "seafaring" people (ships crew) left a vessel and took up residence in NZ.
Our "shipping / passenger lists" give information mainly for persons who arrived via the various immigration schemes set up by the NZ provincial governments of the day.
~ Lu
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Thank you for the information, definitely fits in with what I have long suspected. A distant relative of mine Louisa Jane Neale Udall married a Charles John Greenwood in Sydney on the 10/04/1877 on which he states he is a Batchelor and does not give his age. I have a marriage certificate for a John CHarles ( Charles given as Surname) but his father as Charles Grenhaugen Merchant. He states his age as 31 although in the 1861 census he is 26 and son in law. On his journey to Australia he says he is 25. A man of mystery, I now feel sure that Frances Mott was the first wife of my Charles greenfield and she went onto marry David Hamilton. Who left who? That was was why I wanted to work out when Frances went to New Zealand. As Charles Greenwood states he is a miner did he go off to the gold fields?
Hope that answers your questions. Any other information definitely welcomed.
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Just a further thought. Looking at the tombstone of Frances Hamilton I see it has the name of Moss on. Did members of the family do that, as do you think they knew about her previous marriage. See I misspelt Frances’s surname in my last message. Thank you for the wills have had not had time to read.
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Just a further thought. Looking at the tombstone of Frances Hamilton I see it has the name of Moss on. Did members of the family do that, as do you think they knew about her previous marriage. See I misspelt Frances’s surname in my last message. Thank you for the wills have had not had time to read.
Hi lin-james
Are you referring here to the photo of headstone for Frances HAMILTON which appears on the FindaGrave website ??
If that is the case, then just a word of caution. ;) The listings/ and photos on that site, are added there by random (- awful word - because these people do a wonderful job in photographing cemeteries ;)) persons, who are not even necessarily related but source information from public records, published family trees, etc. etc. to provide "extra" details to accompany their photos.
Helpful, but all details should be verified by checking actual records if available.
In the case of Frances, it would seem that the "name of MOSS" has quite probably, simply been sourced from the NZ Marriage Index ?
The text isn't actually visible in that photo but I do recall seeing the inscription (at another site) ... quite sure it didn't mention MOSS. I'll dig it out and post a transcription of same for you.
~ Lu
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Avonside Cemetery - Christchurch, Canterbury NZ : My Transcription of Headstone text :
Row B / 14 :
David Wilson HAMILTON, b, Ashford, Derby, ENG 9 Feb 1823 - d. New Brighton 25 May 1887 :
AND his wife Martha, d. 5 Nov 1856 (35 yrs) .. and their sons Handley d. 1855 aged 7 months and Handley [2] died 1856 at 5 months.
AND his 2nd wife Elizabeth, died 1873 (55 years) ;
Frances, died 25 January 1899 aged 61 years :
----- source : NZSG Cemetery transcriptions ----
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Thank you for the wills have had not had time to read.
Hi again
Yes, important to read through at least the Will of Frances HAMILTON ;) (it's a long haul, I know - I really only got to point of extracting a few names of people to whom she had made bequests.
There is as I said, a sister she has named as "Sarah MILNE" (and a brother for whom she has also left "instructions" to care for Sarah). I did find this Sarah residing in Canterbury ... one brother also residing same place (he married in NZ but I can't as yet find his birth in ENG.)
Will sort through what I have and add here as time permits.
* Did you have a list of all of Frances' siblings ?? Would be helpful to me and save a lot of extra searching. ;D
~ Lu
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Thank you for the information, definitely fits in with what I have long suspected. A distant relative of mine Louisa Jane Neale Udall married a Charles John Greenwood in Sydney on the 10/04/1877
This is not correct.
I think you mean this marriage in NSW.
343/1877 GREENFIELD John Charles
NEALL Louise Jane
SYDNEY
I have a marriage certificate for a John CHarles ( Charles given as Surname) but his father as Charles Grenhaugen Merchant. He states his age as 31
Is this one (above) the English 1857 marriage to Frances? Is it another?
Who are GREEN FIELD's parents on the NSW certificate?
Please give all the information on both these certificates.
Sue
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Louisa's death.-
GREENFIELD Louisa J.
5716/1899
Parents Samuel & Sarah A
GRANVILLE
In memoriam Louisa Jane GREENFIELD 1900
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14315899
Louisa's sudden death
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14230136
Probate her husband John Charles GREENFIELD
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14227414
I think this is his death. 63 years
GREENFIELD John C
6673/1914
63 YRS
At WILLOUGHBY
ST LEONARDS
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This looks like the death of Mr V. GREENFIELD, who placed this funeral notice
A funeral notice for the deceased John Charles GREENWWOOD place by Mr and Mrs V GREENWOOD
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15504572
GREENFIELD Victor Ferdinand
29498/1946
Parents Charles & Louisa
NORTH SYDNEY
Louisa Jane. the wife was nee UDALL as you have hinted.
She married in England.
Marriage June 1/4 1872
NEAL Charles
UDALL Louisa
Portsea 2b/657
There was a child, who died in infancy. Charles Edward NEAL
died Sept ¼ 1873 at Portsea.
The husband died aged 52 in sept ¼ 1874 Portsea.
I am not sure if these is the connections you are hoping to make.
Sue
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At the National Archives of Australia I have found the evidence to connect the man John GRANHANGEN, AKA John CHARLES, AKA John Charles GREENFIELD as the one identity.
A Naturalisation application which John Charles GREENFIELD completed in 1904 gives his
Birth date- 1833
Birth place- Sweden
Arrival- 1864
Ship- Egmont
And other information.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/
Enter John Charles Greenfield in search box
Sue
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Just a further thought. Looking at the tombstone of Frances Hamilton I see it has the name of Moss on. Did members of the family do that, as do you think they knew about her previous marriage. See I misspelt Frances’s surname in my last message. Thank you for the wills have had not had time to read.
Hi lin-james
Are you referring here to the photo of headstone for Frances HAMILTON which appears on the FindaGrave website ??
If that is the case, then just a word of caution. ;) The listings/ and photos on that site, are added there by random (- awful word - because these people do a wonderful job in photographing cemeteries ;)) persons, who are not even necessarily related but source information from public records, published family trees, etc. etc. to provide "extra" details to accompany their photos.
Helpful, but all details should be verified by checking actual records if available.
In the case of Frances, it would seem that the "name of MOSS" has quite probably, been sourced from the NZ Marriage Index ? * ... a "family tree" listing or similar.
The text isn't actually visible in that photo but I do recall seeing the inscription (at another site) ... quite sure it didn't mention MOSS. I'll dig it out and post a transcription of same for you.
~ Lu
* Correction : ... oops, sorry, my mistake - not sure what I was thinking when I put that. ::) :-[ Yes, NOT the NZ Marriage Index (as only the surname CHARLES appeared.)
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Looking again at the passenger (crew) list for the CHARLES couple.
Lucy2 posted this in her reply#5.
Knowing now that the man's birthplace was Sweden, I can now see that is what is written in the above record.
Funny how you can read things when you already know what they say :-X :P
Sue
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Funny how you can read things when you already know what they say :-X :P
;D ... sure is. ;D
But then I got confused with 1861 census listing where John CHARLES was "masquerading as"
Charles GRENHANGEN ... birthplace (looks like "Breden" ) ?
Revisting 1861 census I can now see > very clearly 8) > ... the first letter of his birthplace
IS actually an " S " ... but this " S " has been struck through with what looks like and enumerator's " checking mark "? ... and as such, makes this " S " look like a capital " B " !! ;D
[ Fooled again (and I was wearing my specs too !! ) ] :-[ ;D
~ Lu
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On Charles Greenfields naturalisation application he states he was born Ekesjo Smoland Sweden.
I have spent a lot of time checking records for a Baptistmal record for a Sarah Moss but no luck so far.Also tried locating a marriage record for a Sarah Milne. Of course it could be a second marriage for Sarah also. We keep searching.
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I have spent a lot of time checking records for a Baptistmal record for a Sarah Moss but no luck so far.Also tried locating a marriage record for a Sarah Milne. Of course it could be a second marriage for Sarah also. We keep searching.
I have those details for Sarah. Will post them shortly.
~ Lu
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On Charles Greenfields naturalisation application he states he was born Ekesjo Smoland Sweden.
Hi,
Does it state his birth date?
Ian
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He states that he was born on the 11th August 1833 and he signed the papers on the 10th August 1904 Aged 71 years. Hope that helps.
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Hi,
Does it state his birth date?
Ian
Hi Ian,
In my reply#24, there is a link to the location of the digitised record .
You can take a look. ;D
Sue
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Thanks Sue.
His parents were hatmaker Carl Grönhagen and Anna Johansdotter.
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0021321_00111#?c=&m=&s=&cv=110&xywh=1959%2C3176%2C723%2C1376 - bottom left.
Ian
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;D
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A few bits about Louisa UDALL
Louisa UDALL, the second wife of John was born in 1846 and married Charles NEALE in 1872 in Hampshire. ( Portsea 2b657) They had a child who died in infancy
Charles NEALE died on the ship HINDOSTAN aged 26 in May 1874 of consumption on their voyage.
The ship arrived Otago July 13 1874.
Upon arrival in New Zealand Louisa disembarked and the ship left New Zealand for San Francisco.
Sometime after, Louisa went to NSW to join her UDALL family who were already there.
Sue
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I have followed the family in the Household Examination Books. If you would like anymore information on them, just ask, no problem.
This page shows Carl Johan Grönhaugen's last entry by the minister. He is recorded as being in an unknown place in 1851:
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/C0021301_00054#?cv=53&c=&m=&s=&xywh=3128%2C-206%2C2231%2C3861 - 2nd family from top on right page.
Ian
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Thank you so much for finding that information.
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Hi lin-james,
In the will of Frances HAMILTON (as previously noted) there is mention of "my brother Alfred Thomas MOSS."
and his New Zealand burial record in 1912 gives him a birth date of 1836.
A little background..
it looks as if the marriage mentioned earlier by Neale1961 was correct for the parents of Frances MOSS' family.
Charlotte was born in Shropshhire and it looks as if she used both Sarah and Charlotte as her fist name.
? Marriage 23 Oct 1827 Worcestershire
Jacob Moses and Charlotte Owen
The baptisms of her children so far found see her as Sarah.
The GRO birth records (after 1837)of some of her children I have seen give the maiden surname OWEN.
MOSES, Sarah mms OWEN GRO Reference: 1840 S Quarter. Saint George (in the east) Volume 02 Page 81
MOSES, Esther mms OWEN
GRO Reference: 1844 J Quarter in Saint George (In the East) Volume 0
MOSES, Emily mms OWEN
GRO Reference: 1847 J Quarter in Saint George (In the East) Volume 02 Page 100
MOSES, Deborah mms OWEN
GRO Reference: 1850 D Quarter in Stepney Volume 02 Page 564
It is possible that in early married life Charlotte/Sarah and Jacob were in Worcestershire, the place of their marriage and I found a man born there who could be the right Alfred Thomas MOSS.
Census 1861.
Alfred T. MOSS, born 1836 at Kidderminster, Worcestershire. His occ. is Mate, Merchant Service .
He is unmarried and visiting a group in Herfordshhire headed by George Wheeler.
Sarah MILNE (nee MOSS), the sister of Frances, married in 1870 in England, so was likely not in NZ till after that.
I searched to find when Alfred Thomas MOSS may have arrived in New Zealand.
But not successful.
However, I found this little advertisement which MAY be him in 1863.
Reading it, one has the impression of a newly arrived chap with cooking/kitchen experience.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/LT18630624.2.23.1?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=a++t++moss&snippet=true&sort_by=byDA
Considering that, I wondered whether this is the correct Mrs F CHARLES upon arrival in NZ. 1865.
1865. Mrs F Charles thanks the captain to NZ.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13123040
The steamer Claude Hamilton was often crossing the Tasman.
Perhaps with her brother already in Christchurch,she decided to make a seperation from John Charles and depart NSW.
Anyhow, some things to think about.
Sue