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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: BobB1 on Tuesday 06 February 24 11:37 GMT (UK)
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Hi.
I have been desperately trying to find information on my 90 year old Mother's late Father; Alfred (Albert) Wilson - born circa 1900.
All we know so far is that in the 1930 -1941 period, he lived in and around a number of St Pancras/Euston addresses (4 of which we know the details) and states on his children's birth certificates 'Dining Car Attendant'.
From this we assume a railway employee/worker. Mother's childhood memory says he may have also worked on the 'Flying Scotstman' as a dining car steward. LNER?
I'm hoping that by confirming his employment history, I might be able to back track to discover more.
Strangely, I can find no mention of him on the 1939 Register either.
Short of a long and possibly fruitless journey to the National Archives, does anyone have suggestion how this illusive man might be tracked down?
Are there local London Rail history buffs out there who could help/advise?
Thanks
Bob
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Hi bob andwelcome to rootschat :)
From what I can see restaurant car staff were part of the railway hotels staff so not listed under the usual categories but classed as auxiliary staff.
Searching the nat.archives for “railway hotel staff” did not turn up much, if he was in a trade union warwick university have a lot of trade union records.
He likely spent a lot of his working life going up to Scotland one day, lodging overnight and returning the next day on the return working :)
Others may have more info as most digitised railway records are available on anc. or FindMyPast
Mike
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There's a 1934 London newspaper report about a "dining car attendant in the employment of the L & NE Railway Company at Marylebone Station". So it appears they were railway staff at the time.
Have you tried cross-referencing your grandfather's known addresses with the 1939 Register?
Is his wife/family missing from the 1939 Register, or just him? Do you have him in any census records?
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What name and occupation does he give for his father on his marriage certificate?
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Hi, welcome to rootschat, in trying to narrrow down the search,do you know(a)when grandfather died and where (B) what was your mothers maiden surname(C) what was his date of birth,ie day/month.
SS
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Just a suggestion, have you considered that if he was born c1900 he would have been eligible for war service? If he was already called up he won’t appear in the 1939 Register. The Register was for the issue of identity cards and ration books for civilians. The
services had their own system so many men do not appear on the Register.
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Wow, I can see I have come to the right place. Thank you all for the considered responses.
To clarify the questions raised:
1. He uses Alfred and Albert interchangeably as Christian name
2. We only have Alf's death certificate. Died 1943 in St Mary's hospital, Luton of TB. Occupation says 'Engineers Labourer' (Waiter) - no other helpful information is contained in this certificate.
3. We have been unable to identify an exact birth date or a certificate because we are unsure of location of birth or actual year/month and even his name (see later). We only surmise his 1943 death which gives his age of 43 was accurately recorded - hence circa 1900.
4. Ditto for war record; nothing to start a search. Unless he can be traced as having signed up in 1939 and a link to his employment and known address can be cross referenced? He certainly isn't on the 1939 Register, so how he would have managed without an ID card or ration card is unknown - unless he was by then signed up? Perhaps he tried to join but was medically discharged with signs of the impending TB? He is later in 1940 at Arlington Road
5 His partner with whom he had 4 children was Martha (Madge) Wentworth born 1902 - both used the surname of Wilson, but there is no evidence of a marriage actually taking place. Therefore no more information there.
6. The 1931 census was virtually destroyed, and the 1911 and 1921 census has so far shown nothing that I can obviously see - but I'm no expert at this.
7. On 3 children's birth certificates he states he was at the following addresses?
a. 1934 - 166 Hampstead Road, St Pancras
b. 1938 - 2 Dalby Street (NW5?)
c. 1940 - 220 Arlington Road, Camden.
8. My Mother recalls he often would bring home 'cakes and sandwiches' after a shift for they were mightily grateful as times were hard. This seems to tie in with a waiter or restaurant car attendant.
Now to complicate matters. It is just possible that Wilson was an assumed name. 'Madge' suffered from Alzheimer's and in a moment of lucidity, blurted out 'you won't find him - he was a Speers). Variants of Speirs/Spiers/Spears - plural and singular have so far not produced anything. If it's true, did he use this 'given name' for official documentation and or employment?
It's a picture of a man who is avoiding something. But I'm convinced if I can track down his railway employment and or potential 1939 military registration, it will produce leads to follow.
Grateful for any more input/advice or assistance.
Bob
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Did your mother have any siblings who are now deceased? If so have you tried finding them on the 1939 Register?
Do you know when Alfred married and if so to whom?
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Below is information from the Britain, Trade Union Membership Registers, Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England.
It may have nothing to do with your Alfred but I thought I would provide this for information only.
First name(s) Alfred
Last name Wilson
Birth year 1901
Age 15
Admission year 1916
Occupation/grade Van guard
Trade Railway Workers
Union name National Union Of Railwaymen
The full details can be found on Find My Past.
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BobB1,
you quote
His partner with whom he had 4 children was Martha (Madge) Wentworth born 1902 - both used the surname of Wilson, but there is no evidence of a marriage actually taking place. Therefore no more information there.
You may have all this info!
I'm trying to build a picture here so please bear with me. Are you sure Alfred & Martha had only 4 children. I seem to be able to find possibly 6, from 1931-1940, the last being daughter J A born Luton.
Madge appears in Luton in 1939 with 3 redacted names below her entry. Her dob 20.10.1902. She dies as Martha Homer in 1989 with sames dob.
Are you aware that Martha may have had a son called Spencer Wentworth in 1924-1982.
Still looking for Alfred :)
SS
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Thanks for your input Softly Softly.
I'm aware of only 4 children between Alfred and Martha, my mother being the 2nd child. The 4th, Judy born in Luton where they moved in 1939 - Alfred did not go with them to Luton.
Spencer I know of - he was born illegitimately in 1924 and was left with his grandparents when Madge moved to London (don't know when she did this but 1st son, Eric was born London 1931).
I'm not aware of any possible 6th child beyond this.
I've seen Martha (Madge) on the 1939 Registrar with 3 redacted names below (assume these to be the 3 children) whilst pregnant with the 4th.The address is given as 13 Vernon Road - no idea where this was/is. Alfred does not seem to be on the same register or at the same address.
Alfred/Albert (Wilson or Speers etc) is the real mystery that I've been trying to crack for many months now and I appreciate you joining the hunt. He's out there somewhere.
Bob
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Bob, quick question, when Alfred/Albert died in 1943 who was a witness to his death and if recorded what was his abode.
SS
added--possible 6
Son E 1931
Dau S M 1934
Son R K mq 1936
Dau S dq 1936
Dau B L 1938
Dau J A 1940
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Softly softly
To answer your questions. He died 15 Aug 1943 at 11a Dunstable Road, Luton. This is/was the postal address of St Mary's hospital.
On the certificate is 'in attendance, M Wilson, Widow'. Stated address was 41 Hawthorne Road, Stoppsley, Luton. This we know is the address that the family had finally moved to after being temporarily accommodated at 13 Dallow Rd, Luton in 1939. Known then as Chalkley's Bakery.
N.B. Just realised that there is a Vernon Road, just of Dallow Road - perhaps the initial 1st accommodation after moving from London? This is new info to me.
By the time they moved to Stoppsley, it would appear that Alf was already in treatment for TB. We don't know for certain, but its possible he was in Park Hospital Moggerhanger house then moved to St Mary's for his final months. Both of which would be more convenient for Madge to visit.
The 2 additional births you show for 1936 make no sense to me and no previous mention of this has been made. As far as I am aware, and my Mother, only 4 siblings existed, 1 brother and 3 sisters. Plus step brother Spencer who they knew nothing of until moved back to the Midlands around 1944/45
Bob
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Bob, I too have drawn a blank with Alfred. I have found him with Madge from 1934-1939 in London, you have him from 1939-43. Madge was still single in 1924 then having Eric in 1931. Eric's birth registration was a late registration (1945) so details on that cert will may differ from when he was born in 1931.
With regard to the 2 Wilson/Wentworth births. I strongly suspect they areAlfred & Madges children who died pre 1939, believe R K died as just R in 1937 aged 0.
If only he was on the 1939 register.
Don't think I can offer any more,
SS
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Softly Softly
Thanks v much for your effort.
Alf is a real mystery. I know he was employed - most likely the railways as previously stated. I know where he lived for at least 3 London addresses and I know he had 4 kids and when and where he died - but nothing else. No birth certificate. No employment or military history. He existed but that's all I can say.
How is it possible to have no recorded wartime ID or Ration card. Either he did register or he didn't but he had 3 young children, Madge wouldn't have let him get away with no contribution to the home/rations.
So was it under another name or did he register via his rail company or attempted to sign up but was medically discharged? If he used another name, surely he would have used the address he was then at - 2 Dalby Road which might be cross referenced?
He must be findable somehow and I feel a search for the applicable period of the rail records at Kew - either as Wilson or any variation of Speers - might be the only option left.
Unless anyone else reading this post has an idea, I'm once again facing a brick wall on this mysterious man.
Bob
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Ancestry have the UK, Railway Employment Records 1833-1956 collection, provided in association with The National Archives.
As regards the 2 Dalby Road address (1938) are you certain it was in Camden/Kentish Town? Because there are several other Dalby Roads in London: Fulham/Hammersmith and Clapham Junction.
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Alfred & Madge Wilson were at "4 & 4a" Dalby Road, Camden in 1936
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/69413567:1795
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Hi Ashtone
I don't have direct access to Ancestry but I think I may have to get an account if its now possible to view Rail records without having to travel to Kew.
As for 2 Dalby Street. The 1938 birth certificate only says '2 Dalby Street, NW5 which I think took a hit from bombing in the early blitz 1939/1940
My mother would have been about 5 years old and can vaguely remember a rush visit 'home' from Luton with Madge and seeing the bombed out street. I have connected that 2 Dalby as being this location but without corroborating evidence.
It is/was well positioned for a Rail worker though.
softly softly - I forgot to ask about the possible 2 extra children...did you find a birth registration or birth certificate that ties in with Madge and Alf?
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The other two children that SS found may have died in infancy :-\
Though the death of the first one would have had to have been registered in the quarter before his birth was, and elsewhere in London
Dec 1935 Hackney 1b 478
Wilson, Ronald Keith
Age 0
Then
March 1937 Hampstead 1a 869
Wilson, Sylvia
Age 0
Burial in a Camden cemetery of a Sylvie Wilson, 5 Feb 1937
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Burial of a Ronald Wilson at Tottenham Park Cemetery, 16 Dec 1935 (no. 24758)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ7-GS4Z-J
Age ? months
Abode Eastern Hospital
Two entries down from Ronald is Frank Lee Fisk, 57, who has the same GRO death ref in Hackney as RKW in Dec 1935, 1b 478.
Eastern Hospital was a fever hospital, then run by the LCC
https://ezitis.myzen.co.uk/eastern.html
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Spencer I know of - he was born illegitimately in 1924
Father Oscar Hickman?
In maintenance arrears, Dudley Chronicle, 18 Dec 1924
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Jonw65
That's unbelievable re Spencer. How on earth you dug that up is beyond me - thanks.
Regarding the other 2 alleged children, I would have to be 100% certain they were Madge's and Alf's before I include this in the final report I'm building for my Mother.
BUT the main priority for her - and me - is to know about the Father she still sadly misses to this day, but barely knew before time runs out for her.
I have failed so far, but I know he can be found by someone who knows where to look
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Hi.
I have been desperately trying to find information on my 90 year old Mother's late Father; Alfred (Albert) Wilson - born circa 1900.
Bob
Bob,
I think you mean that Alfred was *elusive*. If he were truly illusive then it would be unsurprising that there is difficulty finding him!
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Well found jonw65 re Spencer.
Loose ends.
London electoral registers.
1934 Alfred & Madge 166, Hampstead Rd
1935 " " 17, Lyme St
1936 " " 4a Dalby St
1937 " " 5 Dickenson St
1938-39 " 2 Dalby St
1939 war register records 2 Dalby St as unoccupied.
With regard to the 2 Wilson/Wentworth births sadly they fall after the 1934 cut off point on GRO index re digital images otherwise I may have spent yesterdays coffee money in checking out.
SS
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I take your point Wexflyer
But if I accept Madge's momentary outburst that Wilson might not be Alf's real birth name, then perhaps I'm not too far off.
Either way, he certainly is Elusive!
But I remain optimistic that he has left a thread somewhere waiting to be pulled :)
Bob
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Possible earlier sighting of Madge & ALBERT in 1932 electoral register at 6, Warden Road, North St Pancras.
SS
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Check out 171 Camden High St in 1939.
There is an Albert Wilson with 2 birth dates. The amended date of 26 May 1900 appears to have been recorded/notified on 14 May 1942 by the DPL area. DPL is the area code for Luton.
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Apologies if I've overlooked this being considered re:war service but if he was born in 1900 then he may have been called up in 1918/1919 when he turned 18.
S_L
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7. On 3 children's birth certificates he states he was at the following addresses?
a. 1934 - 166 Hampstead Road, St Pancras
b. 1938 - 2 Dalby Street (NW5?)
c. 1940 - 220 Arlington Road, Camden.
Bob
220 Arlington Road, Camden was a "Rowton House". Rowton Houses were hostels for low-paid working men. I have found the address on the 1939 Register and have scrolled through the original images but I cannot see him there as Wilson or Speers variations. There are over 20 pages for this address, it was a large building. There are a few Wilsons listed (common name) but not Alfred/Albert, I will have a closer look later when I have more time.
Information on the Camden Rowton House here:
https://www.workhouses.org.uk/RowtonCamden/
If you Google "Rowton House 220 Arlington Road Camden" you will see more information, the building is still standing.
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Thank you Jool - I appreciate your efforts. Keen to know if you find anything more on this man.
My working theory is that those pre and early war months went along the following:
1. in 1939 Martha had 3 small children under the age of 9 years and potentially was pregnant with a 4th. I believe it likely they were evacuated to Luton under Operation Pied Piper which commenced 01 Sep 1939.
2. Alfred/Albert stayed at the home address of 2 Dalby Street (or 4/4a Dalby Street) to continue working on the (I assume) railways. I have a feeling he didn't join up, or if he did, he was quickly medically excused.
3. 2 Dalby Street was bombed in late 1939 or early 1940 (I have no exact info of the date) and this could probably be the reason for the move to 220 Arlington Road - where on her birth certificate he sates he was when 4th child was born in April 1940. He was living then as a single man and in need of nearby emergency accommodation after the bombing.
4. I don't know how long he stayed at 220 Arlington, or if he went elsewhere. However, his TB diagnosis and illness eventually found him in St Mary's Luton where he died in Aug 1943 to be closer to the family. It's highly likely he was at some sanitorium before he deteriorated - a good possibility is Moggerhanger House alternatively at Aspley Heath or Woburn Sands, but I just don't know for sure.
Still_Looking - You're probably right, but how do I find that if I don't even know when or where he was born?
Bob
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Check out 171 Camden High St in 1939.
There is an Albert Wilson with 2 birth dates. The amended date of 26 May 1900 appears to have been recorded/notified on 14 May 1942 by the DPL area. DPL is the area code for Luton.
This Albert looks a good bet to me (a great find by Sc00p). Is living in the right general area.
171 Camden High Street is some kind of pub. In 1939 it was being run by the Thornes, with staff also living there.
Perhaps Albert was boarding there?
Says he is married. Occupation Caretaker.
Original date of birth 24 May 1885 ???
Amended to 26 May 1900 !
The change was noted in 1942, and, yes, area code is DPL for Luton. So this Albert Wilson was residing in Luton by then.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/1939-register-enumeration-districts
Ancestry have indexed him with the 1885 date of birth, findmypast with no year of birth.
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I wonder if by any chance St Mary's hospital, Luton records survive. Looks like pre the start of the NHS it was the workhouse infirmary so records are with the poor law.
https://bedsarchives.bedford.gov.uk/Using_Our_Collections/Collection-Guides/Health-and-Welfare-Records/HospitalRecordsPartThreeConspectus.aspx
LutonSt Mary's Hospital: from 1948 (for pre 1948 see Luton Poor Law and Public Assistance Archives)
i.e.
https://bedsarchives.bedford.gov.uk/Using_Our_Collections/Collection-Guides/Health-and-Welfare-Records/Poor-Law-Records/Luton-Poor-Law-Union.aspx
PULV16: Registers of Deaths in the Workhouse (1866-1951)
PULV17: Registers of Religious Creeds (1876-1949)
PULV25: Patients' Admission & Discharge Register (1924-1950)
https://bedsarchives.bedford.gov.uk/Enquiryandresearchservice.aspx - likely you will need to visit or hire someone to access, but might be some tidbit here you didn't have before.
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Sc00p - Jonw65
It's worth exploring. Is the any specific reason you feel this Alfred is a good bet? Any info/connection to tie this chap in that can be followed up?
What logical explanation is there for the 2 birth dates and the amendment in 1942?
On the children's birth certificates, he has used mainly Alfred, but also once, Albert. He was always known as 'Alf'. Which one is his actual Christian name is anyone's guess.
Also both Martha and Alf claimed to be married, but there is no evidence of a marriage certificate.
Jorose - I have been in contact with the Bedford Archives, they say records are limited. Its still on my list of options though.
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At the start of hostilities all railway dining was halted by the government and several railway hotels requisitioned so his circumstance would have changed then.
The railway dining trains were a prestigious service, with the LMS and LNER in hot competition, and as such perfection in all things was demanded from all the staff.
This makes me think your man, a dining car attendant offering full ‘silver service’ to important customers was at the top of his profession and likely to me be a long serving member of staff.
I would suspect he would need at least 5 years of service in the railway before 1935 to achieve that, and could have joined the railway much earlier than that, given the railway tradition of length of service giving priority for any promotion.
I doubt he worked the flying Scot but probably worked the lms equivalent, The Royal Scot, leaving Euston at 10-00 am en route to Glasgow with just a stop at Carlisle, another pointer to his likely being very experienced.
Mike
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Hi
I guess it's the locations tie in as much as anything. If he wasn't in the army in 1939 (possibly unlikely, but we don't know for sure of course), and not with Madge in Luton, then somewhere in the St Pancras area seems likely. At some point his date of birth was altered, presumably in 1942, and this chap was in Luton at the time.
There is the Alfred / Albert complication, but his death was registered as Albert.
Dalby Street. The WW2 London bomb damage is online, it's a bit fiddly to use (and a bit fuzzy!)
https://www.layersoflondon.org/map/overlays/bomb-damage-1945?overlayGroups=eyJlbmFibGVkIjpbImJvbWItZGFtYWdlLTE5NDUiXX0%3D
There may be a simpler one online (used to be)
Key is
Black = Total destruction
Purple = Damaged beyond repair
Dark Red = Seriously damaged, doubtful if repairable
Light Red = Seriously damaged, but repairable at cost
Orange = General blast damage, not structural
Yellow = Blast damage, minor in nature
Some houses in Dalby Street appear to have been knocked out
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Thanks jonw65
Looking at the amount of bomb damage to the street on both sides, this is looking more and more likely to be the area my Mother can remember 'rushing to visit' and seeing that street ''gone''. I wonder which was No2?
I'm also starting to think Albert was his real given name and 'Alf' just a self adopted name.
Seems to me that the best bet is following a definite known location of Alf/Albert - 2 Dalby Street (or 4/4a as ShaunJ found).
I am not familiar with the search protocols for the National Archives, but is it feasible to search for an employee - of any name - that might be recorded at that address?
I am visiting my Mother this afternoon and intend trying to discover if there is anything else she can add.
Bob
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This map surveyed in 1952 has house numbers. Nos. 2 & 4 Dalby Street are at the south end, backing on to Kentish Town West railway station. You can see where the badly damaged houses were replaced in a different style.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/103029633
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This map surveyed in 1952 has house numbers. Nos. 2 & 4 Dalby Street are at the south end, backing on to Kentish Town West railway station. You can see where the badly damaged houses were replaced in a different style.
Thanks Molly C. If I'm reading that map correctly it looks like No2 Dalby was not hit by bomb damage after all. So perhaps he had to give the home up for other (as yet) unknown reasons. But certainly by 1940 he's at Arlington Road.
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Looks like a very handy place to live if you worked for a railway, to get to a main line station for work. But if his work changed because the dining cars were closed...?
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Hi all interested parties.
I spent yesterday talking to my Mother to see if any memories could be unlocked. Nothing significant, only the following:
1. For some reason, she thought for most of her life that he originally came from the Birmingham area (Aston rings a bell), but on reflection she's not sure and it's just as likely this could be just where he and Madge (somehow) might have met. She never really knew if they originally met here, or in London.
2. She recalls sometime on the late 50s that Madge dropped into a rare conversation that Alf came from a 'well to do' family and was disinherited. Intriguing, but no further info.
3. Apparently Alf was quite 'pally' with Flanagan and Allen and she recalls a specific occasion (age about 5 or 6) being taken to some pub or club while 'dad and his friends' were drinking.
4. Madge at some stage during her final years in another moment of apparent lucidity claimed Alf had (or knew?) two sisters who had a stage act called the Dolly Sisters - or some permutation of 'Dolly'. This seems strange. There was a very famous Dolly Sisters duo at the time, so if this can be accepted as true, they couldn't use that name. So perhaps a tribute/copy act - maybe this is the connection to F&A? Or did he get to know them as they used the dining cars travelling to various theatres? Probably a Red herring, but who knows?
Bob
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Does your mother remember whether Alf had a London or Midlands accent? Similar to her mother's accent or not? There are a number of people with his possible names who had births registered Jun and Sep quarters of 1900. Assuming a single forename, using Wilson, and selecting some of the more likely phonetic etc. variations for "Speirs" in the GRO and FreeBMD indexes.
If you could limit these to a region, it may be possible to track some of them in the census, 1901 onwards, some may have died as children, 1st world war etc. to narrow down his birth record.
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Does your mother remember whether Alf had a London or Midlands accent? Similar to her mother's accent or not? There are a number of people with his possible names who had births registered Jun and Sep quarters of 1900. Assuming a single forename, using Wilson, and selecting some of the more likely phonetic etc. variations for "Speirs" in the GRO and FreeBMD indexes.
If you could limit these to a region, it may be possible to track some of them in the census, 1901 onwards, some may have died as children, 1st world war etc. to narrow down his birth record.
Hi MollyC - First I thought of was an accent. She doesn't know. Mother was only 9 when he died and about 6 years old when they moved to Luton. She only saw him very occasionally after that and then at a distance when he was in TB treatment/Sanitorium. Such a young child would have no idea.
I repeat that it seems to me, the best bet is to try to find mention of anyone in any Rail records of the time in that London location(employee/union membership/accident records etc) as being registered at the Dalby Street, or perhaps the earlier 166 Hampstead address. Assuming such records exist and home addresses recorded. A correlation might just find him, or someone at these addresses with a different name that can be investigated.
Other than a trip to Kew, I don't know how to verify this theory.
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You can probably access Ancestry (and Findmypast) at a local library or archives if you enquire. There you can at least get an idea of what is available before you subscribe or make a trip to Kew.
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Did he work for the LMS railway company? If so the below may help give you some pointers for further information:-
https://www.lmssociety.org.uk/staffRecords.php
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Did he work for the LMS railway company? If so the below may help give you some pointers for further information:-
https://www.lmssociety.org.uk/staffRecords.php
Thanks for that Girl Guide - LMS is a strong possibility, but according to their site they don't hold any staff records.
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2. We only have Alf's death certificate. Occupation says 'Engineers Labourer' (Waiter)...
Given the "dual" occupation on his death certificate, there's an Albert Spiers (age 22) in the 1921 census. Occupation: Waiter - Queen Hotel, Birmingham (out of work). Birthplace: Birmingham.
He's probably just a red herring. He'll need to be traced forwards to be ruled out.
Also in 1921 - I note that Madge's father is a Locomotive Driver with the Earl of Dudley, General Railway.
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Going by Ashtone's information there is this birth:-
SPIERS, ALBERT SYDNEY TAYLOR
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 100
As you can see has a second name of Sydney, so may not be the correct Albert.
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2. We only have Alf's death certificate. Occupation says 'Engineers Labourer' (Waiter)...
Given the "dual" occupation on his death certificate, there's an Albert Spiers (age 22) in the 1921 census. Occupation: Waiter - Queen Hotel, Birmingham (out of work). Birthplace: Birmingham.
He's probably just a red herring. He'll need to be traced forwards to be ruled out.
Also in 1921 - I note that Madge's father is a Locomotive Driver with the Earl of Dudley, General Railway.
Just in case it’s gone unnoticed the Queens hotel birmingham became an LMS Railway hotel at the grouping in 1922, prior to that it was part of the LNWR.
Mike
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Given the Queen's Hotel info which Mike provided maybe this Albert Spiers is a strong candidate? I saw the record yesterday and disregarded, but decided to mention it today. The occupation of waiter and the surname made me think twice.
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There is an interesting Navy record for J/51973 Albert Spiers b 24 May 1900 Birmingham. It seems he had a liking for jumping ship. 24 May 1900 is a corruption of both birthdays given for the Albert Wilson at Camden 1939.
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I was a bit worried by the ‘out of work’ and also there was a queens hotel in Aston, not sure if it wasn’t a just a big pub.
The earl of Dudley’s railways was in the midlands, Birmingham is looking possible.
Mike
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I forgot to mention that his age in the 1921 census (taken on 19 June) is recorded as "22 years, 1 month". So that's a May birthday, but one year out. The address he's living at also has many other people of various trades and employed/unemployed status.
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Going by Ashtone's information there is this birth:-
SPIERS, ALBERT SYDNEY TAYLOR
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 100
As you can see has a second name of Sydney, so may not be the correct Albert.
This Albert appears with parents Edward & Agnes in 1901 census. Baptism does not record sadly a dob. Cannot find parents after 1901.
SS
Added
Edward is back in 1911 as a married man in his mother's home with siblings (married 10 y, 1 child alive) but no Agnes or Albert,
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Posting this in the hope that we are following the right family.
Albert Sydney Spiers' father, Edward, is with his mother, Jane Spiers, and siblings in 1911. He is noted as a Jeweller Ring Mounter, as he was in 1901. His wife, Agnes, is not with him but it states he has been married 10 years and has 1 child. Bob said in his reply #39 that his mother mentioned Albert came from a "well to do" family - I wonder if his father's occupation of Jeweller is what gave this impression.
Edward Spiers was accused and found not guilty of murder in 1912
UK, Calendar of Prisoners, 1868-1929
Name Edward Spiers
Trial Age 30
Birth Date abt 1882
Trial Date 5 Jul 1912
Trial Place Stafford, Staffordshire, England
Occupation Jeweller
Charge Killing and Slaying
Sentence Not Guilty
There are reports of this in the newspapers in 1912 on Findmypast, but I cannot read the full articles as my sub has expired. I can see that the address matches the 1911 census for Edward. Anyone searching the newspapers may get more results searching the victim's name - Samuel Hatchcroft. I wonder if this may be the reason Albert changed his surname, he would have been about 12 years old at the time.
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Believe Agnes Spiers nee' Taylor went on to set up home with a William Abbot (1911 census). Albert(Spiers) recorded as Abbot and 2 siblings.
ABBOTT, BEATRICE ALICE TAYLOR
GRO Reference: 1910 J Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 350
The above can be found without Albert in 1921 census as Abbott
SS
added info only, Agnes can be found as a widow in 1939 at the same address as per 1921 census.
Possible death of Agnes
Deaths Dec 1959
ABBOTT Agnes 83 Birmingham 9c 379
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Is there a possibility that the Queen's Hotel Albert Spiers (waiter) could be the person who was in the Navy? See Reply #49. The Navy record gives a physical description of the young man.
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Could not wait.
SS
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24th May !!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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There is an interesting Navy record for J/51973 Albert Spiers b 24 May 1900 Birmingham. It seems he had a liking for jumping ship. 24 May 1900 is a corruption of both birthdays given for the Albert Wilson at Camden 1939.
Good find Sc00p. Here's the brief transcript for Bob as he doesn't have Ancestry access:
Name Albert Spiers
Gender Male
Birth Date 24 May 1900
Birth Place Birmingham, Warwick
First Service Date 4 Apr 1916
First Ship Served On Impregnable
Last Service Date 7 Oct 1919
Last Ship Served On Vivid I
Service Number J51973
His physical description if it may help:
Height: 5 ft 3.3/4"
Chest: 32"
Hair: light brown
Eyes: blue
Complexion: fair
There is also a record for J/51973 Albert Spiers on the UK, Naval Medal and Award Rolls, 1793-1972. If I have interpreted the record correctly (with the help of Google) he had earned the Victory and the British War Medal. However, the abbreviations F (forfeited) and R (run) are also on this record, I suppose because he jumped ship.
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It appears we could be on the right track with Albert/Alfred. Want to throw this out. There are 2 marriages in Birmingham of an Albert Spiers between 1921-22.
1. Spiers/Turner--can be dismissed.
2. Spiers/Amy Lilian Ellson. Daughter Joan Margaret born 1926. This Amy Lilian Spiers appears in 1939 war register, as a married women with 1 redacted entry below her name but no Albert.
Her dob given as 13.3.1900 but believe she was born 1899 Birmingham.
Both Albert Spiers & Amy Ellson do seem to appear in 1921 census in Birmingham
She may well have remarried in 1960(Ashford)--1939 register indicates Ashford.
Death of an Amy L Ashford Jan 1962 born about 1900
SS
added: Amy Lilian Spiers appears in 1935 electoral register living with a George Walter Edge in Sparkbrook--as per 1939 register.
George W Edge died 1946 Birmingham
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This marriage certificate would make very interesting reading with regard to father's names, occupations etc.
Marriages Mar 1922
Ellson Amy L Spiers Birmingham 6d 445
Spiers Albert Ellson Birmingham 6d 445
SS
added
GRO Index 1922 quarter 1, volume 6d, page 445:
The entry is located between entries for Birmingham All Saints Hockley (RD: Birmingham) and Aston St Peter & St Paul (RD: Aston).
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From FreeBMD:
Joan Margaret Spiers may have married:
Birmingham 1947 or Pontypridd 1948
The former seems more likely.
IF SO, a possible son born Birmingham 1950, who may well still be alive. I have checked deaths FreeBMD/GRO up to 2021.
All the certificates would need checking.
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On ancestry
Baptism 24 April 1921, St Barnabas Birmingham
Edward Albert
Parents Albert Sydney + Amy Lillian Ellson
Abode 7 Woodbine Grove Ruston St
Father a Waiter
Bit of deception going on there.
Birth reg
ELLSON, EDWARD ALBERT
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1921 J Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 615
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added: Amy Lilian Spiers appears in 1935 electoral register living with a George Walter Edge in Sparkbrook--as per 1939 register.
She's with him in 1931 as Lilian Amy Spiers - Same address as 1939.
George Walter Edge's wife Nellie Spiers nee Cate? appears to have died in 1930.
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So in the 1921 census Edward Albert Ellson born 1921 is in Birmingham with the Ellson family, including mum Amy Lillian.
Relation Grandchild?
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So in the 1921 census Edward Albert Ellson born 1921 is in Birmingham with the Ellson family, including mum Amy Lillian.
Relation Grandchild?
Amy (relation to head is daughter) is with her Parents so yes Edward Albert is Grandchild of head.
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Thank you all for your recent posts. Absolutely fascinating and great detective work going on - there's the feeling of an impending breakthrough.
But to be honest, I'm finding it a bit confusing.
1. Is there a detectable connection between the Albert Wilson in 171 Camden that Sc00p found with the amended birth date? Still can't understand how or why such a change could be made. and the Albert Sydney Spiers in the Queen's Hotel in Birmingham and Sc00p find of Albert Spiers recorded as in the Navy?
2. Jumping ship - if not court martialled or prosecuted at the time - might be a reason to change name, ditto if your Father was accused of Murder, but why isn't it also an issue in the 1920s when potentially working at the Queen's Hotel?
3. If we're on the right track with this/these Spiers, am I correct that for at least Sydney a previous marriage might have occurred but no divorce? If he is the right chap, is that the reason he never married Madge and subsequently adopted Wilson?
4. I haven't yet found a death cert for this Albert Sydney. Does this lend weight to the connection with Madge - because Albert Sydney's death might have been our recorded Wilson in 1943?
5. Also bear in mind that for Madge 'Well to do'' would have meant anyone who wasn't from a background of the abject poverty in which she was brought up.
6. I have been following up on the LMS link and have been referred back to the National Railway museum - who I wrote to 3 weeks ago - as a potential start point.
7. The Queens Hotel was adjacent to New Street Station - a substantial building (see photo) the connection with Albert as a waiter and LMS - or at least being well positioned to seek employment with the railways is compelling.
8. It would be perfect if there was a record of Madge working there about the same time - but I have a feeling it won't be that easy. :)
9. any sign of Albert Sydney on the 1939 Register? I still don't understand how 'Alf Wilson' managed with out an ID/Ration card during the war without registering in some way.
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This marriage certificate would make very interesting reading with regard to father's names, occupations etc.
It's possible the 1923 birth cert of daughter Amy could be enough. It might give Albert's full names (Sydney was on EA's baptism in 1921, though he was Ellson on that of course!) His occupation will be on it (hopefully waiter or similar), and address.
Now available instantly as a digital image for just £2.50.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
Something for BobB1 to ponder.
The Navy record that was found by Sc00p can be seen without ancestry. Just register on TNA website and it can be download it for free
Spiers, Albert
Official Number: J51973
Date of Birth: 24 May 1900
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6950895
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This marriage certificate would make very interesting reading with regard to father's names, occupations etc.
It's possible the 1923 birth cert of daughter Amy could be enough. It might give Albert's full names (Sydney was on EA's baptism in 1921, though he was Ellson on that of course!) His occupation will be on it (hopefully waiter or similar), and address.
Now available instantly as a digital image for just £2.50.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
Here's that Birth Certificate for Amy. Not sure it tells us anything useful though.
Something for BobB1 to ponder.
The Navy record that was found by Sc00p can be seen without ancestry. Just register on TNA website and it can be download it for free
Spiers, Albert
Official Number: J51973
Date of Birth: 24 May 1900
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6950895
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Well he is a Hotel Waiter, occupation matches the chap in 1921 census in Reply #45 by Ashtone
And points towards him being the Albert Sydney "Ellson" named as father of Edward Albert baptized just before that census.
So, getting there.
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Unfortunately Joan Margaret's birth in 1926 is not available as a digital image but it could close the net even further with it's details.
Edward Albert Ellson/Spiers born jq 1921 appears in 1939 war register and dies 1991 Birmingham with a dob 3.3.1921 as per 1939
SS
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Well he is a Hotel Waiter, occupation matches the chap in 1921 census in Reply #45 by Ashtone
And points towards him being the Albert Sydney "Ellson" named as father of Edward Albert baptized just before that census.
So, getting there.
I have downloaded his Navy Record - attached for reference. It's not easy to decipher the poor writing, but this chap is a bit of a problem child for the Navy :)
It does sort of fit with the Alf I'm trying to discover who I've come to think of as a bit of a chancer type, certainly someone who has something to hide, or just a naturally deceitful individual - its hard to know which , if either, is correct.
So, where to go next?
I feel he has to be pursued until he can be officially ruled out.
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BobB1, It depends how important Albert/Alfred is to you. Any research as you will agree is only "good" if evidence is found. If your finances allow Joan Margaret's birth in 1926 could draw the net tighter.
I do not think rc's can offer a lot more than all the great info posted. If Albert is the father of Joan then there is only a small timescale between 1926-1931 when Eric was born.
SS
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Amy Lillian Thorley born 6 Feb 1923 death registered August 1994 aged 71
Birmingham RD
Register Number P56A
District and Subdistrict 0611P
Entry Number 13
Married as Amy L Spiers to Thomas H Mills jq 1943 (also recorded as Amy L Ward)
She appears with that dob in 1939 war register in the household of a Percival & Mary Ward
Married as Amy L Mills to Alfred R Thorley mq 1951
SS
added, possible Thorley/Spiers daughter born 1955
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London electoral registers.
1934 Alfred & Madge 166, Hampstead Rd
1935 " " 17, Lyme St
1936 " " 4a Dalby St
1937 " " 5 Dickenson St
1938-39 " 2 Dalby St
London electoral registers.
1932 Albert & Madge 6, Warden Rd
1933 Can't see them in Camden
1934 Albert & Madge 166, Hampstead Rd
1935 Albert & Madge 17, Lyme St
1936 Alfred & Madge 4a, Dalby St
1937 Alfred & Madge 5, Dickenson St
1938-39 " 2, Dalby St
Albert seems to be using Alfred from 1936.
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... I'm finding it a bit confusing
I think the important point is that no conflicting evidence has been found.
BobB1 provided a "half-life" to which a little has been added.
Contributors have compiled an earlier "half-life".
If they do not fit together, then what happened to the boy who was surnamed Abbott in 1911, what happened to the sailor after 1919 and the waiter after 1926?
Set that against the original question, where was Albert before c1930?
Sc00p has just shown when Albert decided to become Alfred. Most people don't change their names like that.
I wonder if the two dates of birth were a mistake on the part of whoever supplied information for the household at 171 Camden High Street in 1939, if it was some kind of pub with accommodation. Just copied the date of another person in error, which came to light after admission to hospital. (I have two examples of census where I could not find individuals, who eventually were found staying in hotels with mis-copied surnames.)
Is it possible to close the gap by checking electoral registers in Birmingham from 1926 - to see when Albert Spiers disappears?
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BobB1, It depends how important Albert/Alfred is to you. Any research as you will agree is only "good" if evidence is found. If your finances allow Joan Margaret's birth in 1926 could draw the net tighter.
I do not think rc's can offer a lot more than all the great info posted. If Albert is the father of Joan then there is only a small timescale between 1926-1931 when Eric was born.
SS
SS. The answer is simple. Its very important to my Mother and therefore, important to me. I've promised to find out what I can. As the decades have passed, she has increasingly felt his loss and the lack of knowledge about him. She has no family photographs of either parents, nor of the children themselves in those years. No family holidays or other occasions to remember - nothing.
Her last memory is of her Father visiting for the weekend, sitting in bed mending shoes for neighbours (presumably a skill learned in the Sanitorium?) but not being allowed beyond the foot of the bed. No hugs, no cuddling, no comfort. Then his death.
She sees glossy adverts on TV for Ancestry and Find my Past that make it look so simple and easy; ''maybe there's a photo of my dad somewhere?'' I know that's unrealistic.
I have even employed a professional researcher to investigate, but that only found his death certificate (more than I started with) and very little else. If I have to spend more money, I will, but there is a limit to how many false trails I can afford to follow - but any logical avenues of enquiry will not be disregarded.
RC, yourself included, has been enormously helpful and filled in some blanks and opened up more new possibilities. As a collective group, they have the experience and knowledge to see things I wouldn't ever find - and that's RCs power.
I greatly appreciate the effort many have put in so far - and I don't even know if I am dealing with professional researchers or keen amateur genealogists etc, but I am very grateful.
I remain confident that I/we are inching closer and someone will find the key to tracking Alf down :)
Bob
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This may or may not be relevant but Albert Spiers the 21 year old unemployed Waiter was lodging at Jamaica Row in the 1921 Census. Unfortunately the deserted wife is not named.
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Is he in either Birmingham or London as Alfred Davis in the years between 1927 and 1932? ???
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I've struggled to find him after 1923 in Birmingham.
1923 66 Carver Street. St Paul's Ward--this address on Amy Lilian's birth record.
By 1929 Amy Spiers (the "wife" )is back in her family home , 7, Woodbine Grove, Rushton St, Ladywood.
By 1931 Amy Spiers is recorded as Lilian Amy Spiers living with George Walter Edge
Seemingly Albert/Alfred & Madge were in London by 1931 for the birth of son Eric.
SS
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Good Morning
FYI. I bumped into my Aunt this morning at the post office (Beatrice, Mom's sister). In brief, I was talking about Madge and asked if she knew when she went to London....? No, but its her understanding that she went to work at a Hotel there.
If true, I wondered if this snippet of info could somehow be relevant to the Albert at the Queens Hotel Birmingham? Is this how they met?
Does Marth (Madge) Wentworth appear in the 1921 census showing any employment?
Bob
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Good Morning
FYI. I bumped into my Aunt this morning at the post office (Beatrice, Mom's sister). In brief, I was talking about Madge and asked if she knew when she went to London....? No, but its her understanding that she went to work at a Hotel there.
If true, I wondered if this snippet of info could somehow be relevant to the Albert at the Queens Hotel Birmingham? Is this how they met?
Does Marth (Madge) Wentworth appear in the 1921 census showing any employment?
Bob
I can find a Madge Wilson in 1929 London Electoral register staying/working in the Bloomsbury House Club, Cartwright Gardens, St Panras, Camden. !!!
SS
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Good Morning
FYI. I bumped into my Aunt this morning at the post office (Beatrice, Mom's sister). In brief, I was talking about Madge and asked if she knew when she went to London....? No, but its her understanding that she went to work at a Hotel there.
If true, I wondered if this snippet of info could somehow be relevant to the Albert at the Queens Hotel Birmingham? Is this how they met?
Does Marth (Madge) Wentworth appear in the 1921 census showing any employment?
Bob
I can find a Madge Wilson in 1929 London Electoral register staying/working in the Bloomsbury House Club, Cartwright Gardens, St Panras, Camden. !!!
SS
That's a fantastic find. How likely is it that it isn't the right Madge? Maybe just coincidence, but it's a link, albeit tentative, to the Albert (unemployed) hotel worker.
Eric's birth cert as requested. Assumption is that Alf is the Father, but note no Father or occupation is shown - Madge wouldn't have been able to prove they were married.
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Does Marth (Madge) Wentworth appear in the 1921 census showing any employment?
In 1921 Martha Wentworth is with her family in Kingswinford. No occupation listed. Just "Home Duty".
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FYI. Bloomsbury Club in Cartwright Gardens, now a posh residential crescent is just round the corner from Euston and King's Cross/St Pancras stations.
Ideal if your 'husband' or future prospective boyfriend is working with the railways as a waiter.
Perhaps they already knew each other by 1929. Perhaps they met socially - local pub or something. Perhaps they met in Birmingham and both ran to London?
Bob
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According to newspaper articles on Findmypast, The Bloomsbury House Club in Cartwright Gardens was a residential club for men (I can only see the transcript snippets, not the full articles).
Madge Wilson would therefore be staff as opposed to lodging there, of course accommodation may have been included with her employment.
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Hi All
I have been reading through the previous posts this afternoon trying to make sense of things.
For my own benefit and clarification, I have some thoughts:
1. Is it correct to say that its looking like Albert Sydney Spiers and the Albert Spiers (of the Navy) are the same person? It looks highly probable to me.
2. Albert Sydney - seems to have been married around 1922 but had 1 child earlier in Apr 1921 and another in 1926 (Edward and Joan). Is this suggesting Albert Sydney got Amy pregnant but didn't finally married her until 1922, then had another child in 1926. I assume they lived together before he clearly deserts her and the kids in 1926/7?
3. This Albert Sydney Spiers intrigues me. From 1926/7 there's no trace of him anywhere - he disappears - no divorce from Amy that I can personally find and no death notice/record? Has he run off to London and changed his name to Wilson?
.
4. Is there any consensus that the unemployed hotel waiter, Albert** in the 1921 census is in fact a different chap from Albert Sydney - or are they the same man?
If the same person, I'm failing to see how it fits.
OK, he could also have got Amy pregnant set up family home with her before finally deserting them (the news paper article by Sc00p supports this), but we have to believe that for some reason he moves back to Jamaica Row where he then commits petty crimes - then possibly runs off to London? Not impossible, but am I seeing this wrong?
If Albert Sydney and Albert (Navy) and Hotel Waiter Albert are all the same person - its a confusing muddy picture - but make a compelling case for being my missing Alf don't you think?
Apologies if I have misinterpreted and not processed correctly the order of valuable information RC contributors have found so far.
Bob
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The point about information generally is that you need to use more than one source if possible, evaluate the reliability of each type of source, and see whether the answers make sense. You have uncovered two half-lives, which do not overlap, and therefore do not contradict each other. These individuals found in different places must have existed before and after the events that have been found. You have not found parallel lives e.g. an Albert and an Albert Sydney at the same time in different places.
Your thread has been running in the Common Room, which a lot of people will look at, but not everyone. The subject matter has changed from Railways and London. There may be other RootsChatterers out there who know something. Now that we seem to have placed the critical period in Birmingham with a surname Spiers, is it worth placing a post on the Warwickshire board, referring back to this original post? "Albert Spiers missing 1930" or something like that.
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2. Albert Sydney - seems to have been married around 1922 but had 1 child earlier in Apr 1921 and another in 1926 (Edward and Joan). Is this suggesting Albert Sydney got Amy pregnant but didn't finally married her until 1922, then had another child in 1926. I assume they lived together before he clearly deserts her and the kids in 1926/7?
....................................................................
Believe he and Amy Lilian had 2 children pre marriage
ELLSON, EDWARD ALBERT -
GRO Reference: 1921 J Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 615
ELLSON, FRANK STANLEY -
GRO Reference: 1920 J Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 419
DeathELLSON, FRANK STANLEY aged 0
GRO Reference: 1920 J Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 194
............................
after marriage births
SPIERS, AMY LILIAN ELSON
GRO Reference: 1923 M Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 587
SPIERS, JOAN MARGARET (freebmd confirms mmn Ellson)
GRO Reference: 1926 D Quarter in BIRMINGHAM NORTH Volume 06D Page 546
.............................................................
What I find "strange" is that when Martha/Madge registered Eric's birth in 1945 she had moved back to Staffordshire (probable support from family) but did not record a fathers name or occupation.
SS
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I will just throw this in, I have a number of autobiographies of railwaymen, both senior and the less exalted, all refer to the railway requiring two references as to character before an application would be considered.
Does not fit with our petty thief becoming a dining car attendant.
Mike
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Bob,
Have you considered doing a DNA test? It may be the way to confirm that Albert Spiers really is the same man as Albert/Alf Wilson.
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What I find "strange" is that when Martha/Madge registered Eric's birth in 1945 she had moved back to Staffordshire (probable support from family) but did not record a fathers name or occupation.
The father was not present and she could not prove she was married or a widow, so it could not be recorded. This registration occurred just after Eric's 14th birthday. It may have been connected with getting his first job. It would be interesting to see the original registration, why did it need re-registering?
... the railway requiring two references as to character
That may be the main reason for changing his surname. If he moved to London, found work in a restaurant for a while and behaved himself, he probably managed to contrive it.
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Bob,
Have you considered doing a DNA test? It may be the way to confirm that Albert Spiers really is the same man as Albert/Alf Wilson.
Yes, I've considered it, but surely the gamble is that there is a DNA sample, somehow given/taken by the man or family in question? I don't know how likely that would be.
My task for now is trying to follow the 3 Alberts who have been discussed so far as they seem possible candidates for Alf. Trying hard to find a connection or rule one or all out.
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I'm treading a bit carefully here.
From FreeBMD: In 1947 Joan M Spiers was married in Birmingham. They apparently had one son, in 1950.
In 2014 someone with a screenname including Joan's married surname created a tree in Family Search without giving any sources - only four people included.
Joan Margaret and her husband.
Joan's father and mother - given as Albert Spiers, Amy L Ellson, marriage 1922, no dates of birth or death.
But for Joan Margaret and her husband there are the FULL dates of birth and death - somebody out there knows the details.
Did they give up? Or move on to some other tree?
Does anyone have any thoughts about this? (Joan's person identifier is L6V2-GVN)
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Interesting. Some time ago when you were searching family trees on Family Search there was the option to contact the person who did the tree. That information doesn't seem to exist any more.
It is just the name of the ancestor with a number attached. That therefore makes it difficult to follow up on that ancestor. To me it seems pointless to put ancestor information without any means of contacting the originator for further information.
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I have left a message for this person, who may never look at the message box. Later I contacted FS Help, who replied today saying:
"We are unable to alert the contributor by email due to the settings on their account."
- which probably are designed to prevent people being bothered by circulars. I suggested they need to re-think how that works.
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Then one wonders why they bothered to put that information on Family Search if they aren't willing to receive messages from anyone. ???
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It's not the messaging service, it's emails from FS itself. But if you don't open Family Search AND Log in, you don't see there are messages waiting. You can use the website without logging in, but in this case the person probably got nowhere and gave up years ago. Probably not an experienced researcher, just trying to find a few facts to answer some unknowns. Or they may have moved on, and been looking elsewhere.
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I don't use Familysearch trees but if the user has notifications active and you were to add a note or fact to one of the persons, would the tree owner get notified?
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I don't use FS much either. For this mystery family I thought it was worth checking.
I don't think you can tell if someone else has notifications active for a person, only if you have requested it for yourself. FS Helpdesk did not suggest that, they can probably see any flags. I didn't touch it because I wanted others to be able to see that all this was added by one person at one time, ten years ago. Someone could try correcting some capital letters now.
A person out there was interested but did not know a great deal. That is why I suggested the Warwickshire board, and others suggested DNA.
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Info only
Joan M Nicholls did die in Cornwall in 2010. The son born 1950 appears in electoral registers up and until 2023 in Cornwall.
SS
post amened.
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SS - Typo? I think you mean 2010. Interesting about the electoral register.
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SS - Typo? I think you mean 2010. Interesting about the electoral register.
Quite right, post amended, thanks
SS
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I think this is Albert Sydney Spiers father's birth and death.
SPIERS, EDWIN NEWLAND mmn WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1882 M Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 189
SPIERS, EDWARD NEWLAND 30
GRO Reference: 1913 J Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 548
His father William H Spiers and Jane Williams.
SS
added, as a side note Edwin had a brother called Bertie(1889-1960) He had a son called Eric in 1920
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Jane appears to have been a widow.
The only possible marriage I can see is:
William Henry Spiers to Jane Chambers Dec Q 1865 Aston
1881 census shows William & Jane's eldest child, William H born c1867.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC/1881/0013785213&expand=true
(but he is registered as William Henry SPIRES (sic), mmn Williams, Dec Q 1866)
(amended)
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Growing up in England we were a railway family. The certificate is correct, there were dining car
attendents. Dining cars were added to long distance trains, especially the Flying Scotsman.
It was really nice to have a meal or a tea and be serve by the attendant who was dressed in short fitted white jackets with a clean towel over his arm. You had your own tea pot, mild jug and sugar bowl. Not sure if they are still in use as I have not ridden a train for many years having moved to USA.
My son who was with me in 1971 was excited for his experience having a meal on he train from London Euston to Birmingham New Street.
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I think it has mostly been reduced to buffet cars, then trolley service. I remember the same service in the 1960s on the Master Cutler route, Kings Cross to Sheffield Victoria, via the east coast mainline.
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Hello all
FYI. Today I received the birth certificate for Albert & Amy Spier's daughter, Joan Margaret (attached). Their marriage certificate I'm hoping will arrive tomorrow.
In October 1926, they appear to both be living at 12 Kensington Gardens, Balsall Heath. Alberts occupation is Barman.
I am still undecided if Albert Sydney Spiers and Albert (Navy) and Albert unemployed waiter are the same man. There is compelling circumstantial evidence, but nothing for certain.
I've done my best this week to find a link to Madge with these 3 men - nothing at all so far. It seems highly likely to me that they met in Birmingham in some capacity, either work or socially and then ran away to London.
I have also been trying to follow the path of Albert Spiers who did 6 months prison in 1927, to see of there is any data to link him to the other 2 - I can find no further reference to him, where he served his sentence or a prison record to view etc. I presume prison records are available?
Bob
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Good to see you are pressing on, Bob. It occurs to me there is a slight discrepancy in some dates here.
The newspaper report (#77, page 9) may be a different person. It says a wife and three children had been chargable to the Guardians since August 1926. However, the third child (Joan Margaret) was not born until October 1926. It may just be the reporter generalising.
Albert's address is given on the birth cert. as being the same as his wife. If true, he had not left her by then. However, she notified the birth, she may have been covering up the truth.
It may be possible to check Guardians' records at Birmingham Archives.
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I agree MollyC, it doesn't add up.
The Alfred Spiers formally a waiter at Queens hotel who did 6 months for theft and desertion doesn't seem fit with the other 2 Spiers. BUT, I can't rule him out as it's possible after his jail term he meets/or already knew Madge and they run away to London and he changes his ID to Wilson.
Albert Sydney Spiers and the Navy Albert Spiers seems more likely they are both the same man - born the same time and the same name.
I attach the recently arrived 1922 marriage certificate of Albert Sydney and Amy Ellson which throws up some curiosities. Both give addresses as No 5 and No 7 Woodbine Grove - so were neighbours?
Note. Alberts Father is now a 'Licensed Victualler'. Perhaps the 1912 murder charge led him to lose his job?
1st illegitimate child, Edward, was born in 1921 and born/living at No 7 Woodbine Grove with Amy.
When child 2 was born, Amy, in 1923, they had married and living at 66 Carver Street.
When child 3 was born, Joan, in 1926 they were living at 12 Kensington Gardens
Albert Sydney has alternated between waiter and now barman.
1927 ish Albert Sydney and Jailbird Albert both seem to disappear! Both have a reason to hide their past - both deserted family and both couldn't marry Madge as no divorce took place.
In 1929 Amy is found back at No 7 Woodbine Grove with her parents and the kids.
I now have three problems:
1. How to follow up either of these chaps to rule them in or out as Madge's 'Wilson'?
2. Where does the connection with Dining Car Attendant come in?
3. How to trace Madge's whereabouts between 1925 and 1930 to see if there is a link to the above Alberts?
I'd be grateful if anyone could offer advice of how to go about that.
Bob
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Bob,
Have you considered doing a DNA test? It may be the way to confirm that Albert Spiers really is the same man as Albert/Alf Wilson.
Yes, I've considered it, but surely the gamble is that there is a DNA sample, somehow given/taken by the man or family in question? I don't know how likely that would be.
My task for now is trying to follow the 3 Alberts who have been discussed so far as they seem possible candidates for Alf. Trying hard to find a connection or rule one or all out.
Big shout out to the rootschat team effort and all the info acquired here, amazing research!
BobB1 - I would not rule DNA testing out. It can be incredibly useful, to establish connection to people or families. I would suggest for your mother to test, as one generation away from your grandfather. You could manage her test, and matches, if she is unable.
You may not get your grandfathers individual DNA. BUT you will get links to generations of ancestors that can be traced forward or back from family DNA who have tested. This can help rule in or out if this man is connected to your mother.
A bonus if your mother tests, it will also link directly to Madge and her ancestors for FH research.
I have found it incredibly useful, if a DNA link is found it leads back to a common shared set of grandparents. The sometimes puzzle part is fitting them all into a tree with rightful family link.
Possibly Eastertime there maybe a 'sale' at ancestry, most use this as it has the biggest database. Although there are other companies.
It has proved invaluable in my research and most times can take out the guesswork if they are linked, or not.
Just my thoughts
Cas
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BobB1 - I would not rule DNA testing out. It can be incredibly useful, to establish connection to people or families. I would suggest for your mother to test, as one generation away from your grandfather. You could manage her test, and matches, if she is unable.
Thank you Cas.
I agree; the contributors on this thread have been fantastically helpful in assisting with my request and even though I haven't yet found concrete leads to identify Alf, some very useful information has been dug up that has filled in a lot of gaps; for which I'm grateful.
I had zero experience and knowledge in family history research and its complications and the process has been extremely educating - without the help of RC I'd be floundering.
I'll look further into the DNA option, although I still have questions from what I know already to work through.
I'm not one to give up, even though surviving records are scant, I'm certain a lead is waiting to be found.
Bob
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Good Morning.
FYI. I'm plodding on and in the interim I have been reconsidering Madge's 2 moments of lucidity:
1. Alf came from ''a well do to do family''
2. Alf had 2 sisters who where on the stage - an act something like ''the Dolly Sisters''
So I back tracked:
My main possibility is Albert Sydney Spiers, born 24 May 1900.
His Father, Edward Spiers born 1881 had 8 siblings:
William H boy
Albert boy
Sydney boy
Etty girl
James boy
Flora girl
Ernest boy
Berty boy
Edward (Albert Sydney's Father) was a Jewellery Ring Maker, by all accounts a significant position and post a long apprenticeship. In 1912 he stands accused of Murder and appears to separate from wife, Agnes around 1911/12. By the 1922 marriage of his son, Albert Sydney, although deceased, he is now a 'Licensed Victualler '
Edward's older Brother, Albert, born 1870 is a Watch case maker, then an Innkeeper, then by the 1911 census is a Goldsmith. They live in Lozells Birmingham, an upper middle class area.
Brother, Albert has a wife and 2 daughters, all 3 are actresses - the 2 daughters, Ida and Grace are in Variety Theatre - I can't find any trace of them other than the 1939 register when they are at Radnor Road, another prestigious area - but probably lodgings.
So, assuming Madge's memories were a little confused, then this is to me is a tentative link. Albert would certainly be considered 'well off' and perhaps, Alf, didn't have sisters, but 2 cousins 'on the stage'?
I also recall the claim that Alf was 'pally' with Flanagan & Allan. Could the cousins be the connection?
N.B. another recent update; Madge told my Mother that ''his family (Alf's) didn't want them to be together''. If this is Alf's wife and kids, or his siblings etc, I have no idea, but it does it suggest they probably met in the Birmingham area?
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A good discovery that there were cousins "on the stage" which connects back to page 5 of this thread, your post #39, para. 4.
They are probably out there in press advertisments for Variety, but using a stage name which we need to find. Does anyone know of an index to stage names/real names? There will be one somewhere.
If Alf/Albert was in contact with his cousins when he was living in London, then at least some of his family knew where he was. I think these must be them:
Marriage:
Spiers, Albert/Tonks, Ellen Amelia W. Bromwich 6b 863 MarQ 1892
Births:
Spiers, Ida Nellie mmn Tonks Aston 6d 436 MarQ 1892
Spiers, Grace Mabel mmn Tonks Aston 6d 408 JunQ 1895
In the 1881 census Ellen is aged 9, with 3 members of the household in jewellery trades.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC/1881/0013546111&expand=true
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Marriage:
Spiers, Albert/Tonks, Ellen Amelia W. Bromwich 6b 863 MarQ 1892
Births:
Spiers, Ida Nellie mmn Tonks Aston 6d 436 MarQ 1892
Spiers, Grace Mabel mmn Tonks Aston 6d 408 JunQ 1895
Thanks, MollyC
Yes, those are the ladies that I found. Its another intriguing angle, but nothing concrete yet.
I have scoured what information I can; local Birmingham theatres etc, but nothing seems to exist for them that I can find.
If someone has specialist knowledge of theatre/variety in that period, perhaps they might offer suggestions of where such records might exist?
Other than that, they disappear after the 1939 register entry.
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"Other than that, they disappear after the 1939 register entry." --as in a puff of smoke?
Deaths Mar 1976
SPIERS IDA NELLIE 12FE1892 POOLE 23 1083
With regard to Grace Mabel--still searching.
SS
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Wonder if an obituary can be found for Ida Nellie? Might give stage name?
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SS
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Though this may already have been mentioned nd I missed it as I have been off site for some time, dont forget the proximity of the London Northwestern Terminus (later LMS) from Euston which also had a service to Scotland, so along with Kings Cross, St. Pancras and Marylebone there are at least 4 possible termini to choose from. I think probably he has been found with the Trade Union reference mentioned though Wilson is quite a common name.
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FYI. I'm plodding on and in the interim I have been reconsidering Madge's 2 moments of lucidity:
1. Alf came from ''a well do to do family''
2. Alf had 2 sisters who where on the stage - an act something like ''the Dolly Sisters''
I am posting this to rule them out and stop someone going down the same rabbit hole that I did ;D.
I got a free week on FindMyPast and looking at the newspapers I thought I could be on to something when I discovered "THE DALY SISTERS". A variety act that performed with Frank Marr in the 1920s/30s.
I was disappointed when they turned out to be Monica Daly (b. abt. 1900) and Patricia Daly (b. abt. 1907).
Never mind, not the Spiers sisters so back to the drawing board.
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There appears to be a probate for the Ida Nellie Spiers of 5 Fairway Rd Lilliput. I’m not sure if this is the same thing as posted just above?
I was thinking that if there was a will it might provide more info? The info is on Ancestry if you have access.
PB
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Apparently she left £32664 when she died, quite a sum of money in 1976. Probate Winchester 7 June 763307353Q. I would have thought there would be a will with that amount of money.
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Hello all
Not withstanding the search for the stage sisters of Edward Spiers, I've found some interesting questions. I could do with a view from RC contributors to sort my thinking out:
1. Edwards Spiers death was 15 May 1913 - cardiac disease. Age 30, Jewellery Journeyman
Q. What reason would his Son therefore state 'Licensed Victualler' on his wedding certificate?
2. Edward Albert born 1921 to Amy Ellson - father is blank on birth certificate.
Q. Was Albert Sydney perhaps not the father? Did they meet only when he moved into No5
Woodbine Grove then marry in 1922?
3. Albert Spiers (lodging in Jamaica Row) in Nov 1927 news paper report claims he was looking for housing for 3 years - having deserted his family only in Aug 1926
Q. IF he is the same Albert Sydney, his last known address was 12 Kensington Gdns when Joan
was born Oct 1926. It doesn't make sense. The court/police and guardians would have know this.
surely?
4. Navy Albert is 5' 3'' - my Mother, her sisters and Madge, were around 5' 7'' in their prime and Eric
was 6' - how does a small man produce taller children? Is that normal?
5. Eric was 2 years 10 months born in St Pancras - my Mother was born the other side of London when Alf's address was 166 Hampstead Rd? - where was Eric at that time? With Alf who was allegedly working away on trains?
7. Eric wasn't registered until 1945 - Maybe I must consider that 6' Eric wasn't Albert (Alf's) child? I could be wrong of course. If the Madge Wilson at Bloomsbury Gardens in 1929 is 'my' Madge, then that theory becomes void.
Both Certificates attached
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Edward Albert birth cert
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Comments numbered as per your previous reply:
1. Did Edward loose his job over the court case, even though acquitted, and spend the last months of his life running (or working in) a pub? But his previous occupation was given at death registration because it was his profession and sounded better?
3. Joan's birth cert. (see page 12) gives:
26 Oct 1926 place of birth 77 Dudley Road
12 Nov 1926 address of mother 12 Kensington Gardens (date of registration)
Address of father given as the same - but did he ever actually live at either address, or was Amy covering up his absence? The court would not have checked the birth certificate. He could have been searching for a house before he actually left them.
5. Eric was probably with his mother, but the family moved almost every year and had a spell in Hampstead Road. Electoral registers were compiled several months before they came into force, (latterly Oct/Feb) so may give the impression of being there the next year when actually the names had already moved on. Need to check small print on the registers.
7. Did they just forget to register his birth until Eric was about to start a job? Even if Alf would have attended a registration to add his name, by 1945 it was too late to do so.
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4. Navy Albert is 5' 3'' - my Mother, her sisters and Madge, were around 5' 7'' in their prime and Eric
was 6' - how does a small man produce taller children? Is that normal?
He would have been 15 on entry to the Navy as his first period of service (Boy II) commences 4 Apr 1916. The period of engagement stated on the form runs from his 18th birthday. Quite possible he had a bit of growing to do.
It would be nice to work out what this snippet says on his service record as it appears to have been added to the record 26 Nov 1925.
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£257 (final) handed Spiers
(Char gen ‘good’ but on discharge ‘indifferent’)
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£257 (final) handed Spiers
(Char gen ‘good’ but on discharge ‘indifferent’)
Character, generally good, but on discharge, indifferent. What of the £257, was that his accumulated salary paid on release? I recall my early Army days, your money was accrued and you were paid a portion. Is this the same, perhaps? Hard to imagine it was a fine.
Sc00p - you make a very valid point re his age and height.
Jool - The Daley Sisters, so close, yet so far. I would have fallen for that also.
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Further to Jool's court hearing find for Edward Spiers in 1912
Here is attached info providing more detail of the case
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Part of the Edward Spiers newspaper report was somehow missed off Bob's previous post, here is the rest of it.
Update. I see Bob has updated his post so I have removed my image :)
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Edwards Spiers death was 15 May 1913
Reply #122, p14
There appears to be a burial record for Edward Spiers in Findagrave and Witton Cemetery records, May 1913. No middle name, but correct age and month.
https://birminghamburialrecords.co.uk/#
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Re the licensed Victualler job on the death certificate:
You mentioned a brother of Edward had a stint as an Innkeeper. Were there any other family members with pub links who may have given Edward a job after the court case?
Are there any records for license holders in Birmingham City Archives?
Any mention in newspapers- often reported on changes of licences etc.
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Edwards Spiers death was 15 May 1913
Reply #122, p14
There appears to be a burial record for Edward Spiers in Findagrave and Witton Cemetery records, May 1913. No middle name, but correct age and month.
https://birminghamburialrecords.co.uk/#
The Birmingham Burial Records site doesn’t show any middle names in their search so it can be difficult to pin down the right person. However, I think you have located the correct burial.
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He died 15 Aug 1943
Reply #12, page 2
There is also a record at Witton for "Alfred Wilson Unknown - 1943"
Burial Sep 1943
Worth checking.
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Molly C
Well done. The burial you have found for an Edward Spiers at Witton cemetery in 1913 does seem valid. The one for an Albert Spiers in 1943 also is possible. I'm wondering how Madge would have born the cost of that transportation and burial - unless she contacted the family and they helped? If its somehow proven to be him, that would be a great step forward and provide the missing link don't you think?
Fiddlerslass - Its entirely possible. But why state licensed Victualler 9 years after his death when Jeweller was on his death cert? I found the reference to brother Albert as an Innkeeper on the 1901 census after a long day at the library - The Grosvenor Tavern. 21 Grosvenor Rd, Aston Manor. I can't find reference to that 'tavern' but there was a Grovesnor Arms at No 44. By 1911 census, Albert is a Goldsmith, but he might also still be running the pub? Albert was certainly doing well for himself if he lived in Lozells
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When I was trying to find an elusive Railway Driver, not in London, a member called "Red Roger" gave me good advice, and eventually I found my great grandpa!
There's always an expert -or ten - to help, on here.
TY
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Thought I would check directories for Innkeepers or related subjects &don't know if this is a clue but found in Directory of Birmingham 1908:
Dining rooms
Mrs Alice Spiers 7 Leopold St
Albert Spiers Hop Pole PH 43 Pershore St ( gone by 1912 directory new landlord J Duffy)
Several different Spiers jewelry firms too:
D&L Spiers 45 Vittoria St
John Spiers & Co 117 Vyse St
R Spiers & Co 2 Vyse St
Don't know why licensed victualler instead of Jeweller was on marriage cert, unless he was trying to hide something or it's a different person.
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He died 15 Aug 1943
Reply #12, page 2
There is also a record at Witton for "Alfred Wilson Unknown - 1943"
Burial Sep 1943
Worth checking.
Unfortunately this isn't the Alfred Wilson we are looking for, this one was aged 69 and married to Florence for 47 years.
Newspaper announcement of the death in the Birmingham Mail on 4th Sept 1943:
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Edwards Spiers death was 15 May 1913
Reply #122, p14
There appears to be a burial record for Edward Spiers in Findagrave and Witton Cemetery records, May 1913. No middle name, but correct age and month.
https://birminghamburialrecords.co.uk/#
Yes! Here is the newspaper announcement dated 19 May 1913 mentioning his mother Jane.
There is also a basic transcript of the burial on FindMyPast, the only additional information is his middle name being confirmed as Newland. There may or may not be more useful details on the original (£10 to download from the site posted by MollyC)
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I have read through all 16 pages again and just want to throw in a few comments.
I still think a dining car attendant on the on the the railways most prestigious trains to Scotland would be a long serving and trusted employee.
I am looking back at our waiter in 1921 census who is likely to be the father of the 1922 child living in
Carver st., not far from the jewellery quarter and the queens hotel. I said previously about his unemployed status but now have noted the date, in 1921 the railways were about to be grouped and the queens was then owned, but not necessarily run by, the LNWR, a company not noted for being a good employer, he may well have got his job back when the LMS was formed under government directions.
I see no barrier to the “jumped ship” man being employed by the LNWR, they had little interest in their hotels.
I see an affable man, a bit of a storyteller enjoying his mixing with rather rich and famous people, but his stories may have varied with his audience.
Sad that his life should have ended due to this long lingering progressive disease, I suspect that his railway career might have ended sometime in 1938, and he was in the sanatorium by the 1939 records, was his death registered by the hospital or by Madge
Just my thoughts,
Mike
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Thank you to Molly C and Jool.
Both have now confirmed Edward Spier's burial is at Witton cemetery in 1913 and have also ruled out the possible Alfred Spiers in 1943. I was preparing to pay a visit to Witton before I found your update. My hopes were raised a little, but his burial site may yet provide that link.
FYI. I have not found Alf's burial in the Luton area either, so not sure where he is. Although Birmingham seemed feasible as a burial location.
According to Bedford Archives, the medical records for Alf at St Mary's hospital where he died, are closed until 2046 - so nothing more I can do there.
Mazi - My understanding is that dining car attendants were considered an important part of the team and service offering. Unless he was inflating his role. A fair assumption is that his job at the Queens included Silver Service training which would have carried over to LNER/LMS. Also possible that his navy service entailed some waiter/silver service training - I can't work out from the v limited record in what capacity he may have been employed.
Sad that virtually nothing survives of the Queens Hotel. Such a magnificent and grand well known building in Birmingham.
As yet, I have absolutely zero info on his period of employment - about 1927 to 1940 - with the Railways to corroborate. I have contacted the National rail museum, the Royal Scott society and neither hold staff records or are able to offer any clarification on employment roles. The Nat Archive is apparently the best place to look and still may be fruitless. It seems that will require a personal visit - unless there is an online option that I have not seen. Does anyone specialize in Railway research?
BUT, we're getting closer - the history of the Spiers family is very compelling, as are the 2 sisters (cousins) who are 'on the stage' a part of the puzzle, that although they're not fully identified, lends a lot of weight to the known facts of the story.
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I spent yesterday talking to my Mother to see if any memories could be unlocked. Nothing significant, only the following:
2. She recalls sometime on the late 50s that Madge dropped into a rare conversation that Alf came from a 'well to do' family and was disinherited. Intriguing, but no further info.
I thought I would post this "In Memoriam" announcement placed by Edward Spiers' family 2 years after his death. It's interesting to see that it's from his mother, sisters and brothers - no mention of his son Albert. I am guessing that after Albert's mother, Agnes, took him with her to live with her new man, William Abbott, the Spiers family had little or no contact with young Albert. This may be what was meant by "was disinherited". Just a thought.
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I think you are probably correct Jool. The omission of "son" speaks volumes.
(amended)
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I regret not checking how old this chat is but just I'm having a nightmare finding my moving around grandparents little heath Coventry, Islington Highgate St Pancras etc , Hastings, Birmingham plus northern spells.
Just to say I think you mayb ruled out suggests if the London area was wrong. I think boundaries get changed so if the areas are near each other it might be right.
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... the history of the Spiers family is very compelling, as are the 2 sisters (cousins) who are 'on the stage' a part of the puzzle, that although they're not fully identified, lends a lot of weight to the known facts of the story.
"The June Sisters" appear to be a nationally well known variety act from the early 20's onwards. The sisters are named in "The Stage" newspaper (as well as other papers) as Grace and Ida more than once. I can't see any relevant births for the June surname so have to assume at least that part was a stage name.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/MqYVVQhc3ZnL6dHRwTvtJ8/variety-show-posters-from-the-1920s-and-1930s (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/MqYVVQhc3ZnL6dHRwTvtJ8/variety-show-posters-from-the-1920s-and-1930s)
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Just to say that I have found railway employment records extremely hard to find so I am not surprised you have not found anything on line.
Nothing about my Grandad’s railway employment shows up on Ancestry or FindMyPast unless anything has appeared in the last month or so. Grandad worked for the railways from the age of 14 until he retired at 65.
He was an apprentice wagon builder at the L & N W Railways Ince Wagon Works from around the age of 14 and was a there as a railway wagon builder in the 1911 census. By 1921 he was married and living in Wallasey but working at the wagon works at Garston Docks. In 1939 he and his family were still living in Wallasey and he was listed a wagon repairer and also in the LMS decontamination squad. Sometime after this they were bombed out and went to live in Rainford but grandad continued to work on the wagons until he retired in 1954.
Apart from various census stating his occupation the only records I have found for his long employment with the London & North Western Railway and then with the London Midland Scottish Railway post 1922 are some accident report books of the LMS railway that I found at Cheshire Archives for 1940/41. In those I found he was working at the Marshalling Yards at Edge Hill and was injured at least three times. I cannot imagine what it must have been like at those yards during the Liverpool Blitz and the need to keep the wagons in good repair.
I presume Grandad retired at 65 in late 1954.
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"The June Sisters" appear to be a nationally well known variety act from the early 20's onwards. The sisters are named in "The Stage" newspaper (as well as other papers) as Grace and Ida more than once. I can't see any relevant births for the June surname so have to assume at least that part was a stage name.
Another scoop from Sc00p!
I don't think that Ida and Grace can be found in the 1921 census? :-\
The June Sisters seem to have been in South Africa in 1921
Some snippets from the S.A. Pictorical (spelt like that) are on google books
Voume 12, 1921
"Smartly dressed, and presenting one or two novelties, the June Sisters, specialty dancers who also sing (as dancers apparently always must, though nobody knows why), provide a welcome note of variety. It is some weeks since a dancing-turn has been seen, and the June Sisters give a neat show, with the Mexican insurrection dance as the special draw."
I think there are couple of engagements for them in there.
There is an outward passenger list on ancestry/findmypast that could tie in!
Balmoral Castle, 31 Dec 1920, from Southampton to Cape Town
Mrs. E A Spiers Artiste 43
Miss I N Spiers Artiste 22
Miss G M Spiers Artiste 19
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That looks very promising. The names are exactly right but all seem to have shed a few years somewhere - is that show biz?
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but all seem to have shed a few years somewhere - is that show biz?
Hopefully it is!
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I don't think that Ida and Grace can be found in the 1921 census? :-\
I think they are visiting 247 Brixton Road, Lambeth.
Ida Spiers 20y 4m
Grace Spiers 17y 3m
Both unemployed variety artists born Birmingham. There is a Mrs Jane Spiers 42y 8m also born Birmingham with them
A South Africa round trip getting back for the 1921 census on Apr 29th would seem entirely possible. Balmoral Castle arrived Capetown 17th Jan 1921.
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With regards to Ida & Grace's mother Ellen Amelia. She appears at the same address as her husband Albert, Ida & grace but on the next image at the top occupation Boarding House Keeper.
SS
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Brilliant finds Sc00p, and jonw65.
UK and Ireland, Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960
Departure Cape Town, South Africa
Arrival 10 Apr 1921 Southampton, England
Ship Name: Norman
Spiers, Ellen Amelia
Spiers, Grace Mabel
Spiers, Ida Nellie
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A South Africa round trip getting back for the 1921 census on Apr 29th would seem entirely possible. Balmoral Castle arrived Capetown 17th Jan 1921.
Just found they Arrived Southampton 10th April 1921 from Capetown. Transcribed as Speers.
Edit: The google book snippets from the S A Pictorical appear to be dated between 29th Jan and end of Feb 1921.
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Well done Jool and Sc00p with the incoming passenger list.
Those dates in Africa do seem to work out really well, plus the three of them home in time for the 1921 census. Thanks to Sc00p again, and softly softly.
I couldn't find any of that!
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The Stage, 6 Jan 1921.
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Possibly Ellen Amelia Spiers nee' Tonks
1881 ref 2994 52 7
TONKS, ELEANOR AMELIA DEXTER
GRO Reference: 1871 D Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 146
SPIERS, ELEANOR AMELIA 78
GRO Reference: 1953 M Quarter in BOURNEMOUTH Volume 06B Page 245
SS
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Deaths Mar 1976
SPIERS IDA NELLIE 12FE1892 POOLE 23 1083
Now we have Bournmouth and Poole
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Deaths Mar 1976
SPIERS IDA NELLIE 12FE1892 POOLE 23 1083
Now we have Bournmouth and Poole
And....
Deaths 1964
Albert Edward Spiers Age 95 (b 1869)
GRO Reference: 1964 2Q in Bournemouth Volume 6B Page 163
(Albert E Spiers b 1869 with Grace and Ida in 1939).
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Curiosity got the better of me
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See: https://maps.nls.uk/view/105989608
West Cliff Road runs across the centre, across the top end of the Middle Chine valley. Substantial detached villas. Perhaps used as a hotel, managed by Ida.
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Not the sharpest picture but here they are, The June Sisters.
(Photo 5 at the bottom).
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Hi all interested parties.
I spent yesterday talking to my Mother to see if any memories could be unlocked. Nothing significant, only the following:
1. For some reason, she thought for most of her life that he originally came from the Birmingham area (Aston rings a bell), but on reflection she's not sure and it's just as likely this could be just where he and Madge (somehow) might have met. She never really knew if they originally met here, or in London.
2. She recalls sometime on the late 50s that Madge dropped into a rare conversation that Alf came from a 'well to do' family and was disinherited. Intriguing, but no further info.
3. Apparently Alf was quite 'pally' with Flanagan and Allen and she recalls a specific occasion (age about 5 or 6) being taken to some pub or club while 'dad and his friends' were drinking.
4. Madge at some stage during her final years in another moment of apparent lucidity claimed Alf had (or knew?) two sisters who had a stage act called the Dolly Sisters - or some permutation of 'Dolly'. This seems strange. There was a very famous Dolly Sisters duo at the time, so if this can be accepted as true, they couldn't use that name. So perhaps a tribute/copy act - maybe this is the connection to F&A? Or did he get to know them as they used the dining cars travelling to various theatres? Probably a Red herring, but who knows?
Bob
Quote from post 5
Now to complicate matters. It is just possible that Wilson was an assumed name. 'Madge' suffered from Alzheimer's and in a moment of lucidity, blurted out 'you won't find him - he was a Speers). Variants of Speirs/Spiers/Spears - plural and singular have so far not produced anything. If it's true, did he use this 'given name' for official documentation and or employment?
There are always "small nuggets" . I had exactly the same from an aunt in my own research a few years back.
Do other's sense we have found Alfred Spiers/Albert Wilson via a very long and complicated route through "family word of mouth", and various documentation?
SS
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I think you have. Amazing research and lateral thinking by all.
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Credit to Ashtone who first spotted the alter ego, page 6:
Given the "dual" occupation on his death certificate, there's an Albert Spiers (age 22) in the 1921 census. Occupation: Waiter - Queen Hotel, Birmingham (out of work). Birthplace: Birmingham.
He's probably just a red herring. He'll need to be traced forwards to be ruled out.
I think the red herring has been reeled in.
Bob, can you ask your mother if the "June Sisters" rings a bell with her?
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While trying to follow the careers of the June Sisters through press reporting, It's clear they toured extensively through the 20's and 30's but looks their bookings began to dry up in the early 1940's when adverts appear with London addresses (agent?/another act?) where they are looking for bookings. I did find these 2 show adverts for late 1943 where they look to be touring with another variety dance act "The Six Dolly Girls" that seems to have been formed around 1941. Coincidence maybe?
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First and foremost. What excellent detective work by Jool and Sc00p to find the June Sisters so quickly and even a photo! No doubt in my mind they are the daughters of Albert Spiers. Thank you everyone for your effort and input in piecing together this story.
MollyC - I spoke to my mother this morning. The name June Sisters, or Sisters June, means nothing to her. She can only recall something sounding like The 'Dolly, Doily or Dooley' Sisters.
Closest I've found is a sisters act in variety shows at the Birmingham Hippodrome 1939, 1942, 1947 with some big names of the day. These are the Donna Sisters. Based on the assumption that the June sisters mother would have been too old by then, what if they changed their act and name also? Donna, does sound bit similar to Dolly. Grasping at straws probably - I've found noting on these ladies so far.
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Good Morning all.
For those who have been following this thread and spent time digging out crucial information to assist me, I would like to present: Madge.
Its a very long story of how this photograph was found, but suffice to say that without this investigation, it would have remained lost forever.
We don't know when or where it was taken but looks like she was in her 20s - its the only known picture of a young Madge.
So, a leap forward in many senses, but my quest continues.
I'm still looking for a definitive connection for Albert Sydney Spiers with Alf Wilson who died in Luton 1943 and therefore with Madge.
His time as a 'Dining car attendant' is so far a blank.
His burial site or evidence of a cremation is unknown.
The anomaly of the existent June Sisters against the memory of the Dolly sisters also eludes me, though I note Sc00p found they may have toured with the '6 Dolly Girls' around 1941 - or perhaps been part of the group? Compelling, but I can't find any info on that Dolly Girls group.
Once again, my thanks to all who have contributed, but if anyone feels they have the time to help me investigate the above questions further, I'd be grateful for the assistance.
Regards
Bob
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Hi Bob, was only thinking about your original post a couple of days ago. Do you not think that the fact that Alfred told his family about "artists etc" appears to tie him to the Spiers connection, through his brothers daughters and wife.
SS
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Hi Bob, was only thinking about your original post a couple of days ago. Do you not think that the fact that Alfred told his family about "artists etc" appears to tie him to the Spiers connection, through his brothers daughters and wife.
SS
Morning SS.
I think the evidence pieced together so far is very compelling - and whilst most likely is correct - its purely circumstantial - as my old profession would say. There is no specific undeniable link tying them both together that I can see - yet.
To present to my Mother, the story of her Father, I need to be certain its correct. In lieu of that, my thinking is to pursue the questions above in the hope that more collaborative information/evidence might appear to close that gap further, or make it indisputable.
Either way, these unanswered gaps in Alberts history need to be filled - if I can.
Bob
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Good Morning Bob,
How lovely to meet Madge! SS has a valid point. So often, family stories turn out to have a grain of truth but not exactly as passed down.
I think DNA may be the only way to prove a connection because there could be some out there already, to which you can make a match. I have not studied it myself but since the previous discussion I have unexpectedly helped someone to resolve a DNA find. Co-incidentally it involved a Wilson, who married an unrelated Wilson in Manchester. I had deduced this from basic research, but a contact wrote to me this week to say it had finally explained a DNA match he has known about for years!
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Hi MollyC, thanks.
Absolutely SS has a valid point which I freely acknowledge.
Yet it seems to me necessary to seek clarification and confirmation where ever possible and with the certainty that more exists to be found - until there isn't anything. Some is just pure curiosity on my part, but mostly a desire to find all the facts I possibly can. Had I not taken this approach from the beginning, I would not - with the fantastic help of RC - got as far as I have. The recent photo find is an example.
The DNA approach is, I agree a good idea, but when I broach the subject, my Mother is less than keen. Its not ruled out, but not as easy as I'd like.
So I'm left with plodding on - which I intend to do - until there is no more to find. Old habits die hard ;)
Bob
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It's the very small incidentals that make me believe he is the same man. Madge saying " you won't find him he's a Spiers " and as I said before the telling to his children about "actors and the stage". Have you shared with your mother the findings made so far and if so what are her thoughts on your efforts.
SS
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SS, I also find the small incidentals make it appear him being the right man. But it's still not a confirmation in itself, which is what I'm now trying to establish to remove doubt. This is why I think trying to fill the gaps, which in themselves are an important part of the story, might be very helpful.
My Mother is appreciative and very interested, but she can't add much to what I tell her as its mostly all new to her. She was a very young child at the time. Neither can I overload her with verbal information as she forgets too easily, so I'm busy collating it into a written report she can read at leisure.
Yet occasionally some obscure snippet drops into conversation that she never mentioned before or couldn't connect to anything specifically.
This family history research is both fascinating and frustrating in equal measure.
Bob
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Hi Bob,
Thanks for sharing the lovely photo of Madge, it's good to put a face to a name.
You mentioned a few weeks ago that you bumped into your mother's sister, I wonder if it's possible to have another chat with her. As we have found, the smallest snippet of information can lead to another avenue of research. Often people remember small things which they don't feel are important enough to mention, but can sometimes come out in a casual chat.
I believe we have found the right man, but from your recent posts I can now see why you feel circumstantial evidence is not enough. We'll keep plodding on ;)
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You mentioned a few weeks ago that you bumped into your mother's sister, I wonder if it's possible to have another chat with her. As we have found, the smallest snippet of information can lead to another avenue of research. Often people remember small things which they don't feel are important enough to mention, but can sometimes come out in a casual chat.
Hi Jool
No, I don't think Betty has anything to offer. She is 4 years younger than my Mother and is even less aware of her Father, or where they were in those early years.
She only added the part of Madge being in London as Hotel worker based on a memory of an argument with Madge about jobs and work - seems Madge never talked about her past and the siblings were not curious enough to ask. What I do know is that Eric spent years trying to find his father, but was on the wrong track because until Madge's claim that 'he was a Spiers' he never found anything out. All present at the time simply thought it was just an unconnected Alzheimer's outburst.
N.B. Another potential line of enquiry is the prison record of the Albert Spiers in 1926 ish. Where did he serve his sentence? I don't know where to look for this record any further than I've already tried. If it exists it should contain much detail about him.
I appreciate the support
Bob
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I can only add that I think it very likely that your dining car attendant was a member of the N U R,
Warwick university’s records for the national union of railwaymen are available to search on find my past, for years between 1925-1928, it is possible he was a member in 1928.
If these have already been consulted i apologise for bringing this up again.
Mike
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01t3e/
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I can only add that I think it very likely that your dining car attendant was a member of the N U R,
Warwick university’s records for the national union of railwaymen are available to search on find my past, for years between 1925-1928, it is possible he was a member in 1928.
If these have already been consulted i apologise for bringing this up again.
Mike
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01t3e/
I have been looking at the records Mike suggested but had no luck finding him under any of his names. There are Dining Car Attendants listed so I entered that as a keyword with no name in case his name had been mistranscribed, I also tried the same with the keyword Waiter. Maybe this time span is too early for his railway employment.
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https://www.rootschat.com/links/01t3e/
[/quote]
I have been looking at the records Mike suggested but had no luck finding him under any of his names. There are Dining Car Attendants listed so I entered that as a keyword with no name in case his name had been mistranscribed, I also tried the same with the keyword Waiter. Maybe this time span is too early for his railway employment.
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I think you're correct, Jool. If we assume the correct man and he was in prison around Aug 1926 for 6 months and didn't move to London until 27/28 then probably, though not definitely, he wasn't technically employed as a waiter then? Are there no union records after 1928?
Alf consistently uses ‘Dining car attendant or Waiter’ as occupation – I’m advised this is possibly listed under Auxiliary Staff - part of Railway Hotel Staff.
Likely rail company is LNER or LMS – if really a dining car attendant, although its not impossible he worked Flying Scotsman, but more likely its the LMS Royal Scot.
I noticed also that on his death certificate, his occupation is 'Engineers Labourer (Waiter)'. Given what we know of his character, had he just been overstating his employment perhaps? Or was that the doctor's or hospital staff's uninformed assessment? Maybe Madge - who was present at his death - gave that (more honest?) information?
My Mother and her siblings were never given the impression that he was anything but a dining car waiter. He regularly came home with food from the dining car after a night or two away. What ever capacity in which he was employed, there must be a record of him.
Bob
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The occupation on the death certificate reflects the closure of the dining cars at the beginning of the war, mentioned previously. He probably had to take whatever job he could find, an engineer's labourer, but (waiter) indicates his proper occupation. It also probably explains why he left Dalby Street for cheaper accommodation, and any spare money would be sent to Madge.
Very frustrating that the records end in 1928. It is worth enquiring of the archive about the circumstances and source they came from, and any details which may suggest what happened to the subsequent records.
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Another thought - Alf/Albert may have been redeployed within the railway company. At the same time they were closing the dining cars they would have been loosing staff who either volunteered at outbreak of war, or were mobilised with the Territorial Army.
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Another thought - Alf/Albert may have been redeployed within the railway company. At the same time they were closing the dining cars they would have been loosing staff who either volunteered at outbreak of war, or were mobilised with the Territorial Army.
Hi
Yes, its possible he was redeployed. But if we accept that in 1939, the Albert Wilson, identified as a Pub Caretaker in Camden is the same man as Albert Spiers, then this confirms that by then he was no longer a railway dining car attendant - as you say, possibly due to the closure of the dining cars.
So in reality, I'm looking for evidence of employment in London from around 1927 to 1938/9
Bob
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I am referring to the occupations on the death certificate. See replies #28 & #30, page 4, he may have been caretaking for the railway briefly, and he did not stay at the pub for long before moving to the hostel on Arlington Road. The company probably looked after their own, as far as they could in the chaos of the time, and it explains the unlikely switch from waiting at table to engineering. That makes the previous dining car attendant position more plausible.
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N.B. Another potential line of enquiry is the prison record of the Albert Spiers in 1926 ish. Where did he serve his sentence? I don't know where to look for this record any further than I've already tried. If it exists it should contain much detail about him.
The Court records for this time appear to be in the Birmingham Archives along with the Birmingham Guardians records (specifically I'd be looking into the "Maintenance and Settlement Committee" records as they appear to cover desertion/chargeability).
Courts https://calmview.birmingham.gov.uk/CalmView/app_themes/customer/images/bah-source-Court%20and%20Criminal%20Records.pdf (https://calmview.birmingham.gov.uk/CalmView/app_themes/customer/images/bah-source-Court%20and%20Criminal%20Records.pdf)
Guardians https://calmview.birmingham.gov.uk/CalmView/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=GP+B%2f1%2f2%2f7%2f20 (https://calmview.birmingham.gov.uk/CalmView/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=GP+B%2f1%2f2%2f7%2f20)
Unfortunately, I think you are going to come up against the 100 year rule but it might be worth calling the Archive to confirm.
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The court records may be closed but committee minutes should be open, as a public document. They may not mention names, but knowing the date it would be possible to search.
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Railforums is a very fast moving site, it may be worthwhile to reply a few times just to keep your question visible.
Good luck, mike
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If it had become known to the railway ompany that he had served a prison sentance he would not have been in railway employment for more than a few further hours in that era.
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SS, I also find the small incidentals make it appear him being the right man. But it's still not a confirmation in itself, which is what I'm now trying to establish to remove doubt. This is why I think trying to fill the gaps, which in themselves are an important part of the story, might be very helpful.
My Mother is appreciative and very interested, but she can't add much to what I tell her as its mostly all new to her. She was a very young child at the time. Neither can I overload her with verbal information as she forgets too easily, so I'm busy collating it into a written report she can read at leisure.
Yet occasionally some obscure snippet drops into conversation that she never mentioned before or couldn't connect to anything specifically.
This family history research is both fascinating and frustrating in equal measure.
Bob
I'm following this fascinating tale and amazing research as it has echoes of my own search for my mystery grandfather. I so agree with others that DNA would be useful if your mother can be persuaded. It's just some spit in a tube. But perhaps she is worried about what it might reveal, or concerned that she loses control of her privacy. DNA tests weren't a thing (or I didn't know about them, or they were too expensive - certainly not on my radar) when my mother wondered more frequently what happened to her own father, and although I did find out a lot about him eventually (thanks to RootsChatters) that then threw up a new mystery as to his father. My siblings/cousins have tested but her DNA would have been much more valuable for that research. But I do know my mother was surprised at how much personal information was out there about her family - just things like BMD, newspaper reports and so on. 'You can't keep anything a secret!'
Also I found incidental comments invaluable. There was an element of truth to all the oft-repeated anecdotes, plus I found just chatting generally about her family revealed more. Things like 'why did your parents give you your names' - it turned out that her name was in memory of another family member who I hadn't know existed. Other more general things about life or other family members, led to reminiscences that then triggered other windows into the past. Such as 'who was your favourite teacher', 'what was your favourite subject' - anything really that's nothing obviously to do with family history research but leads the conversation down memory lane where all sorts of snippets pop up.
As for occupations of fathers on birth/marriage certificates - in my family at least, their occupations were elevated if not totally fictitious.
Good luck with your search.
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If it had become known to the railway ompany that he had served a prison sentance he would not have been in railway employment for more than a few further hours in that era.
In theory yes. Yet somehow he managed to overcome this issue - perhaps the change of ID helped?
On that basis for now I take his declarations on birth certificates and family knowledge as the gospel truth. However, he appeared to have a loose arrangement with such facts - so who knows.
FYI.
On Sunday I asked my Mother if she was aware her Father might have been in the Navy? No response. Much later, on the journey home, she tells me ''he was in the Army, NOT the Navy, he worked with an old Army friend...''
Then.... ''I don't know why, but I have a feeling he might have been in jail or something...''
She can't add anything else to these snippets. The first might not mean anything in reality, but the second is interesting.