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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: aidansrest on Friday 09 February 24 15:15 GMT (UK)
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Looking for Jane Ann Ierdale who married George Brown in Newcastle during the March quarter of 1883.
They had one child, Sarah, born during the December quarter of 1891 (possibly on the 17th December); she is the only registered Brown/Ierdale birth.
But just cannot find Jane at all prior to her marriage - I can find a William Ierdale, born in Newcastle around 1852 (but only on the 1871 census). I'm presuming he may be a brother of Jane.
But no other sign!
Can anyone help!
Much appreciated
Sue
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Ps lots of births/baptisms, with possible parents of Robert and Jane, but impossible (for me) to find on census returns.
Sue
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Got Robert Ierdale (1829) as 'iredale' in 1851 and 1861
Sue
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When was Jane born. Presumably census give place of birth as Newcastle :-\
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I haven't a clue when Jane was born (or George for that matter). I was trying to find them with their daughter in 1901, but have drawn a complete blank.
Knew George would be difficult to trace, but with a surname like Jane's I thought she'd be easy!!
Sue
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Wonder if her surname was Teasdale! There are several Brown /Teasdale births from 1884 onwards in the area.
SS
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Strange though... how she married as Ierdale and several years later, her daughter was also registered as 'Ierdale'
??? ??? ???
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There is an Iredale family on 1871 census. Father, Robert, mother, Jane, daughter, Ann,(born 1854) daughter, Susan, son, George. Children all born in Newcastle/ Gateshead area.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KZGH-5HV
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Freebmd have the marriage as Ierdale and Jerdale :)
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Think its definitely Ierdale or Iredale
Sue
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They had one child, Sarah, born during the December quarter of 1891 (possibly on the 17th December); she is the only registered Brown/Ierdale birth.
This birth is registered Gateshead RD ( I have been looking at Newcastle RD :) )
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There is a George A Brown in Gateshead in 1891 with wife Jane A Brown age 29 bn Sunderland plus a daughter age 11 days who has yet to be named
RG12/4180 f67 p12.
They are living next to a George Brown who is probably Georges father
We can probably ignore that family - birth of child registered with mmn Sharp
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Similar situation with this marriage.
Marriages Sep 1888
Clyde Margaret Gateshead 10a 1061
Ierdale Mary Jane Gateshead 10a 1061
Jerdale Mary Jane Gateshead 10a 1061
SPEIGHT John Gateshead 10a 1061
WILLIAMS Frederick Henry Gateshead 10a 1061
SS
added, going by future births believe Speight married Clyde
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On the subject of Ierdale/Jerdale there is a family in Heworth in 1911 whose surname is transcribed as Jerdale. However there is a daughter of the family, another Jane Ann (18 in 1911), so it is easy to compare the first letter of the surname with the first letter of Jane. They are clearly different, so the family name is Ierdale, not Jerdale.
So you may wish to look for Jerdale as well as Ierdale.
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They had one child, Sarah, born during the December quarter of 1891 (possibly on the 17th December); she is the only registered Brown/Ierdale birth.
Presumably you have Sarah in later life, can you give us some information on her in case we can track the family back
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Marriage locator for that 1883 marriage has
GRO Index 1883 quarter 1, volume 10b, page 210:
This marriage was at Newcastle RO (RD: Newcastle upon Tyne).
We won't find it online then :-\
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I wonder if this is a second marriage. Have a look at the original for this family in 1881. George Brown is a lodger, b Wells, Somerset. The family he is with have been transcribed as Judah but the original shows it could well be Iredale. As others have said Iredale. Ierdale and Jerdale seem to be some of the transcriptions used. In this respect there is a death for a Robert Jerdale in Gateshead in 1882 of the correct age.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q271-PYKZ
And here is a Geo Brown b Somerset married to Jane Ann in Gateshead in 1891.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WJH3-V3Z
And here they are in 1901 with same places of birth as 1881 and living in the same street, Carrick Street.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSCY-QRM
William
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And here is a Geo Brown b Somerset married to Jane Ann in Gateshead in 1891.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WJH3-V3Z
Looking for Jane Ann Ierdale who married George Brown in Newcastle during the March quarter of 1883.
They had one child, Sarah, born during the December quarter of 1891 (possibly on the 17th December); she is the only registered Brown/Ierdale birth.
I had seen that census but discounted that Jane as she would have been too old to have a daughter Sarah in 1891 :-\
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Gro index has the birth of Leonara Williams , granddaughter in 1901, in Gateshead Apr - Jun 1889 with mmn as Serdale, which seems coincidental and another possible transcription of the surname.
Has the birth certificate for Sarah Brown been obtained in order to confirm parents' names, father's occupation and address or is an assumption being made from indexes?
William
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I have ordered a copy marriage certificate for Sarah's marriage to Joseph Snaith in 1909.
The couple appear together on the 1911 census with their daughter, Jane Ann (named for Sarah's mother?).
Sarah and Joseph parted and Sarah had a second family with Thomas William Donaldson (who she didn't marry), but whose name she took.
The 1939 register gives her date of birth as 17th December 1891.
The 1911 census gives her place of birth as Newcastle.
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Family can be found in 1891/1901/1911/1921 census- is Mary Jane related to Jane Ann
WILLIAMS, LEONORA mmn SERDALE
GRO Reference: 1889 J Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 939
WILLIAMS, HENRIETTA mmn IERDALE
GRO Reference: 1891 S Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 973
WILLIAMS, WILLIAM mmn TERDALE
GRO Reference: 1895 M Quarter in NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE Volume 10B Page 177
WILLIAMS, MARY JANE mmn IERDALE
GRO Reference: 1898 J Quarter in NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE Volume 10B
WILLIAMS, FREDERICK HENRY mmn IERDALE
GRO Reference: 1904 S Quarter in NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE Volume 10B Page 149
WILLIAMS, GEORGE BROWN mmn TERDALE
GRO Reference: 1909 D Quarter in NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE Volume 10B Page 145
(wonder if he was named after his possible uncle?)
SS
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Looks promising 👌
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Here is Leonora Williams in the 1891 census. I think this shows her to be the daughter of Fred Williams and Mary J.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:HSJX-GMM.
Nb On at least one site she has been incorrectly transcribed as Leonard in the 1891 census.
And this is her with her grandparents in the 1911 census, Here she is recorded as Leonora Williams ( in 1901 she is showing as Leonora Brown).
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWCJ-4WY
I have to say that I do believe that Mary J is actually Jane Ann's daughter. Perhaps the most cost effective way ( and quickest!) of finding Sarah Brown's parents would be to buy a digital image from Gro.
William
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Here is Leonora Williams in the 1891 census. I think this shows her to be the daughter of Fred Williams and Mary J.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:HSJX-GMM.
Nb On at least one site she has been incorrectly transcribed as Leonard in the 1891 census.
And this is her with her grandparents in the 1911 census, Here she is recorded as Leonora Williams ( in 1901 she is showing as Leonora Brown).
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWCJ-4WY
I have to say that I do believe that Mary J is actually Jane Ann's daughter. Perhaps the most cost effective way ( and quickest!) of finding Sarah Brown's parents would be to buy a digital image from Gro.
William
William, I'm not quite sure what you mean by this-I'm probably missing something
SS
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GRO Birth
IERDALE, MARY JANE mmn DUNN
GRO Reference: 1871 J Quarter in PICKERING Volume 09D Page 395
Freebmd
Births Jun 1871
IERDALE Mary Jane Pickering 9d 395
Jerdale Mary Jane Pickering 9d 395
SS
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First name(s) Mary Jane
Residence Bank Top, Rosedale West
Last name Iredale
Place Rosedale
Birth year 1871
County Yorkshire (North Riding)
Baptism year 1871
Country England
Baptism date 14 May 1871
Father's first name(s) Robert
Father's occupation Engine Driver
Mother's first name(s) Jane
SS
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S.S From the censuses I have attached Leonora Williams is living with her parents in the 1891 census but with her grandparents , George and Jane Ann Brown in 1901 and 1911. If you look at the 1881 census and in particular the places of birth of the family transcribed as Judah but to my eyes Iredale I would conclude that Jane Ann and Mary J are mother and daughter.
William
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I would agree, Jane A is grandmother to Sarah likely Mary is mother has Brown as surname as stepfathers name?
There is this 1881 Iredale on image
Robert Judah 56 Head
Jane A. Judah 47 Wife
George Judah 21 Son
Mary A. Judah 10 Daughter
Elizabeth A. Judah 20 Daughter in Law (Daughter-in-law)
George Brown 45 Lodger
Added BC would confirm or rule out
Cas
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1861 census for Robert & Jane. ref 3804 103 23
1871 " " ref 4840 29 30
Birth sq 1854
Ierdale Ann Newcastle T 10b 77--cannot find on gro site but believe mmn is Dunn
SS
added found it
TERDALE, ANN mmnDUNN
GRO Reference: 1854 S Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 72
Could Ann be Jane Ann?
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1891 birth certificate for Sarah Brown --digital image £2.50 is a must.
SS
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Ann Iredale married Elijah Inmonger in Lastingham , Yorkshire( residence Rosedale West where sister Mary J was born) 28 April 1872 - age 18. Father named as Robert Iredale, engine driver. Witnesess William Iredale ( presumably her older brother) and Jane Iredale ( made her mark - her mother?).
The Inmongers can be identified in the censuses in Gateshead (1921 look for Iremonger).
It would help if we could find Sarah Brown in a census!
William
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I think that there is possibly no connection between the 1883 marriage of Iredale - Brown and the birth of Sarah in 1891, maybe the wrong family has been chased. No sign of her within the family posted.
Birth was registered Gateshead...would help to know her father's name, maybe when the marriage arrives it gives hopefully some clues so she can be located on census.
There is also this birth..don't know if connected
BROWN, WILLIAM mmn IREDALE
GRO Reference: 1893 S Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 923
Added - there is also the possibility that born late Dec she could have been registered March Qtr 1892 and have a different mmn.
Cas
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Blows away research ;D
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1891 census ref for William and Sarah as per birth address 4176 147 40
SS
added 1901 census ref 4752 178 11
BROWN, ELLEN mmn AIREDALE
GRO Reference: 1887 J Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS Volume 10A Page 798
BROWN, WILLIAM mmn IREDALE
GRO Reference: 1893 S Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 923
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i see no young Sarah in the 1901 census you have quoted, S S. Going back to the information provided re Sarah's marriage to Joseph Snaith it is worth looking for the married Sarah in the 1911 and 1921 census ( she is not with her husband in 1921) and looking at her place of birth ( it is not Gateshead!). Clearly the actual marriage certificate is the key evidence required now.
William
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Bit of a hunch going by birthplace in 1921 free index
Sarah Snaith b1891 Gosforth, Northumberland, England living Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland
Looking at this birth which would cover Gosforth and a late Dec 1891 birth
BROWN, SARAH mmn CUSHING
GRO Reference: 1892 M Quarter in CASTLE WARD Volume 10B Page 302
This marriage would possibly connect
Marriages Jun Q 1891
Brown Isaac Lanchester 10a 437
Cushing Jane Ann Lanchester 10a 437
There are another couple on page but they married each other.
1891 with married sister of Isaac
William Blatchford 31 Head
May J Blatchford 26 Wife
May Jane Blatchford 8 Daughter
Margret Blatchford 5 Daughter
William Thos Blatchford 3/12 Son
Isaac Brown 32 Visitor
Jane Ann Brown 17 Visitor
Possible death for Jane Ann in Wingate 1893 maybe from childbirth as a son born 1893 Archibald.
Still not locating Sarah 1901, possible in orphanage but born Carlisle, so maybe not her. Not with mother or fathers parents.
Hopefully marriage cert will shed some light.
Cas
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There are also these births that look likely children of Sarah & Joseph
SNAITH, ISAAC mmn BROWN
GRO Reference: 1914 J Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 2299
SNAITH, JOSEPH mmn BROWN (with Joseph & Jane Ann in 1921)
GRO Reference: 1916 S Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 1863
SNAITH, ALFRED ARCHBOLD mmn BROWN (maternal grandfather & brothers names?)
GRO Reference: 1918 J Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 1846
SNAITH, MARGARET CUSHION mmn BROWN (Margaret Cushing in 1921 but unable to view)
GRO Reference: 1920 J Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 2355
Deaths
SNAITH, ALFRED ARCHIBALD age 1
GRO Reference: 1919 D Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 1071
SNAITH, ISAAC age 7
GRO Reference: 1921 J Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 969
So it looks likely that Sarah and Joseph recently split before 1921. So much tradegy losing children...
Cas
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Great work, Cas. I am sure you have cracked it. It is worth looking at the originals in the 1921 census for Margaret Cushing Snaith and for Joseph Snaith as these provide further evidence of the family break up. Also worth noting who Margaret is living with in the 1939 register.
William
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William, you pointing that out, makes sense of who Margaret Snaith was in the 1939 register with Sarah. Her written birthdate was not the best.
Lots of clues from BMD and in 1921 index from children's names, looks a good possible the hunch is correct.
Hopefully the marriage will confirm her father is Isaac, please keep us updated OP.
Cas
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Hello All
And many thanks for all your hard work, so much appreciated I can't tell you!!
I thought the copy marriage certificate would arrive to day (it hasn't), and that would confirm Sarah's father's name and occupation.
Will, ofcourse, let everyone know when it arrives!
I do think Cas has cracked it though - as Sarah did indeed name a son Isaac and another one was given the middle name of Archibald and giving her daughter the middle name of Cushing is also quite a give away!
The birth registration of Sarah, born on the 16th December 1891 was very, very tempting, but the evidence for the 2nd Sarah is more convincing.
The certificate will reveal!!
Sarah and Joseph split shortly before, on just after, the birth of Margaret, which took place on the 15th April 1920.
Her husband had another child, John Snaith Redding, born on the 26th July 1920, to Elizabeth Redding.
Sarah went on to have a son, Thomas William Donaldson Snaith, born on the 3rd August 1924, although she named Joseph as the father the birth certificate, he wasn't, it was a Thomas William Armstrong Donaldson, with whom she went on to have another child, Albert Oliver Donaldson, born on the 13th November 1927.
Joseph Snaith went on to have another four children with Elizabeth Redding (although only three survived), and the couple married in 1942.
Sarah and Thomas lived together, but did not marry - Thomas died on the 1st July 1944, and Sarah, the following year, on the 6th March 1945.
Thanks again for everyone's interest and input - and I'll let you know when the marriage certificate arrives!
Sue
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Good research Cas, process of elimination got there👍🏻
Ss
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Annoyingly I cannot locate Isaac Brown in the 1901 census but he seems to reappear in the 1911 and 1921 censuses. Again it is worth looking in particular at the 1921 census and the name of his employer and then compare with Sarah Snaith's residence and employer - it seems to me that this is unlikely to be a coincidence!
William
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Also been looking for 1901 as Sarah is possibly with him. Annoyingly illusive as just would like to place her. Archibald or Albert is with maternal grandparents.
Possible death to fit with age.
Deaths Mar Q 1934
Brown Isaac age 74 Newcastle T. 10b 81
Cas
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I too have found Isaac in 1911 and 1921 (although I don't have full access to that census, I can see he is still with the same family as in 1911).
However, am I correct in assuming that he is listed as being the 'father-in-law' in 1911; this cannot be right as the couple he is with William and Joan Milne, don't appear related to him. I'm not 100% sure, as I cant see a marriage, but Joan's maiden name may have been 'Robertson.'
Sue
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William Milne and Joan Robertson appear together on the 1901 census living in 6 Swindon Street, Hebburn; William was a carter and Joan a domestic.
Year and place of birth match for Joan.
Sue
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This looks like her birth reg
ROBERTSON, JOAN mmn KILGOUR
GRO Reference: 1879 J Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS Volume 10A Page 758
Don't know if info correct
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/748490/person/242257068351/facts
Maybe she was result of an affair..or they adopted Isaac?
Cas
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Possible death to fit with age.
Deaths Mar Q 1934
Brown Isaac age 74 Newcastle T. 10b 81
Cas
Just to add
Newcastle Upon Tyne Electrol registers
Register of Electors (Central) 1934
30 Derby Street - at same address
Sarah Snaith
Thomas Donaldson
Isaac Brown
So death date is likely as electrol registration is taken previous year.
Cas
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Fantastic work Cas!! Still waiting for certificate >:( but I think it'll just confirm what you have already found.
Many, many thanks
Sue
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Certificate arrived!!
Sarah's father was Isaac Brown - a miner!
Well done all!
Sue